JLCPCB Invites You to Try Free 6-8 Layer PCB Prototyping

victoriii wrote:

That's why I used to wonder that I have stocks of semiconductors and hobby components for years, if not decades, but if the war with Taiwan started and the plates from China ended, I suspect that the prices (already high) would jump up so much that it would stop I can afford hobby projects using PCB and I would have to do gardening or painting.

Hey, you're fussing there I bought a nail milling machine for quick simple projects yesterday and I make plates with it, it's not pretty but it works. So if there are no Chinese, we will carve the tiles ourselves, as we have done before.

gkalfail wrote:

victoriii wrote:

gkalfail wrote:

>>20687196

Or maybe someone tried in:
https://aisler.net/?utm_campaign=bitluni_23

they look like European JLCPCB.

Pricing: https://community.aisler.net/t/our-simple-pricing/102

I uploaded my latest project to this Aisler and they come out >42 euros with shipping and at JLC I paid 5 or 6 pounds, admittedly with HAL instead of ENIG, but that doesn't bother me. So it's not an alternative at least in terms of price, unless someone needs it tomorrow.
I admit that sometimes I am worried that JLC (and China) practically monopolized my tiles, but they are usually the cheapest. Only some time ago I discovered that the 2L Elecrow plates are slightly cheaper (around 50 pence on the whole order).

And this is interesting - so Europe is still expensive. At first glance, it seemed ok. Requiring the same price as the Chinese is an exaggeration, but it would be appropriate to fit in x2, maybe x3.

In that case, why should I fulfill an order from a European company for 60,000 euros when I can get the same from a Chinese company for 25-30,000 euros?
In the name of "local patriotism" or other "values", would any of the commentators give 30-35 thousand euros in their business?

It is on such differences and optimizations in badly managed companies that a new car can be negotiated as a bonus.

czareqpl wrote:

It is on such differences and optimizations in badly managed companies that a new car can be negotiated as a bonus

Some time ago, I acted as an intermediary in ordering a large batch of tiles. Quick simple design, just a few PCB slots and an irregularly shaped board. The whole thing is somewhere 10x16cm, 10,000 pieces were supposed to fly for the first shot. The ordering party wanted to order them in Poland, the company (I know which one, but I won't say) sang to him the amount of around several dozen zlotys each, and the deadline for the whole project to be completed within a few months. I managed to convince him not to mess with it, and he ordered it from JLC. I showed him exactly what and where to click because I didn't really like turning his money around, and the guy was shocked because he paid less than a dollar per tile. Also, I got a bigger bonus for pointing out a Chinese than for making a project

Pure hard business, even adding VAT and duty, are unrivaled in terms of quality and speed of production compared to domestic "tile shops". Sometimes I wonder who orders from domestic producers? Or maybe under their own banner these "tile shops" themselves order in China?

ArturAVS wrote:

Sometimes I wonder who orders from domestic producers?

Entities with import restrictions.

ArturAVS wrote:

Or maybe under their own banner these "tile shops" themselves order in China?

Some yes, e.g. Nanotech Elektronik

In Poland, large companies order, because there the electronics does not order the tiles personally, only through the procurement department, and the procurement department does not know each other, so it always orders where, unless some trader or offer gets tangled with some alternative source. You won't order in China because you don't know and Chinese is still associated with crap (less and less rightly so) and the 5x lower price is suspicious.
Again in the west, they take eurocircuits or wurth and they don't care - because 2k euros for a prototype is a penny thing from their point of view, and mass production will be covered by accounting with the procurement department and legal department so that it is clearly written in the contract that the company will not pay for the production of crap.

Probably, it would be possible to build a cheap tile shop with top-shelf machines somewhere in Podlasie or Silesia for money from KPO (because, paradoxically, only such machines guarantee low production costs), but the cost of purchasing machines is not everything, and operating costs are not low either. And this can only happen if the daily number of orders remains at a sufficiently high level, although with appropriate prices and quality, it would not be a problem.
But there are also a few obstacles, for example, there is no money from KPO, the waiting time for the machine may be longer than the time to use the funds, the amount of paper that needs to be prepared by weight could exceed the weight of the said machine, and someone else would have to pay for it and that's a lot of money. And one wrongly placed comma in this pile of papers could make the entire investment unprofitable, so that there will be no takers - we are left with the Chinese.

>>20704904

IP security, speed of transport, less language barrier, better legal protection. It's off the top of my head. Of course, price matters too, and there is an inflection point somewhere. For everyone in a different place.

Who orders tiles from domestic producers? Me, I needed to make copies of tiles once and I didn't have the time or skills for it. Fortunately, the domestic company did not want much for it, and the employee who did it, in consultation with me, changed the project a bit, which turned out to be good for me.
Currently, I have mastered "this art" enough that I do the projects myself and commission JLCPCB

Janusz_kk wrote:

victoriii wrote:

That's why I used to wonder that I have stocks of semiconductors and hobby components for years, if not decades, but if the war with Taiwan started and the plates from China ended, I suspect that the prices (already high) would jump up so much that it would stop I can afford hobby projects using PCB and I would have to do gardening or painting.

Hey, you're fussing there I bought a nail milling machine for quick simple projects yesterday and I make plates with it, it's not pretty but it works. So if there are no Chinese, we will carve the tiles ourselves, as we have done before.

And yes, but we will go back to the level of TFQP-32 and 0805, BGA64 on 4L and QFN on 4 layers will end.

victoriii wrote:

And yes, but we will go back to the level of TFQP-32 and 0805, BGA64 on 4L and QFN on 4 layers will end.

But it's better than that

victoriii wrote:

but if the war with Taiwan started and the PCBs from China ended, I suspect that the prices (already high) would go up so much that I would no longer be able to afford hobby projects using PCBs

that is nothing. I tried to make a tile with us a dozen years ago, but when I saw the prices, I was okay with it, because then PLN 100 was still reasonable money and that's what they wanted for a 100x100mm tile with a waiting time of 3 weeks.

I understand, but if I had to manually carve single-layer boards with vias, I honestly don't know if I would want to.
A dozen or so years ago I also tried to order in Poland and went to such things as plates without soldermask and without description to make it cheaper, haha.

victoriii wrote:

I understand, but if I had to manually carve single-layer boards with vias, I honestly don't know if I would want to.

It depends how much, if you have one for yourself, but if you are making a series for someone, it is obvious that it makes no sense, because then the cost of the tiles 'includes' the cost of the device.

By the way, so as not to start a new topic, how can you pay for the tiles now?
On Ali I pay with Blik and the amount is in PLN, unfortunately it is not that simple here,
I paid for my order placed this year from my Paypal account because I didn`t know any other way.
How to bypass these dollar accounts and currency conversions and buy at JLCPCB today?

Well, I don`t know, maybe... open a free Revolut (with a virtual card - on your phone, if you have NFC, you can also pay in the store) or an account in a normal bank so that currency conversion can be done at normal rates?

But I have an account at Alior, I also have a foreign currency account there in USD, but the card is a debit card for this account and it doesn`t work, they want a credit card. I am buying as an individual. This problem exists today, January 2024, I don`t know what it was like before.

In fact, I always use PayPal. So far I haven`t had a problem.

In December, I bought from a Chinese seller on TEMU, which had just been established, and paid with Blik.
I thought that credit cards and currency conversion were a thing of the past, but here it is.
Maybe Paypal itself is not bad, but after topping up my account, I waited 2 days after the payment until the amount paid appeared in my account, and I have a linked account with them and a quick top-up option.

Mastertech wrote:

Maybe Paypal itself is not bad, but after topping up my account, I waited 2 days after the payment until the amount paid appeared in my account, and I have a linked account with them and a quick top-up option.

Unfortunately, PayPal has some slippages regarding payments. Payments are processed immediately.