Is It Safe to Use Zeroing for Sockets With Only Two Wires (Blue and Black)?

Hello

I know the topic has been rolled over a hundred times on this and other forums, but I need the assurance of someone knowledgeable not to hurt someone ...

I do not have grounding in the sockets in my room, i.e. I only have 2 wires, blue and black. I would like to do the so-called zeroing, but I do not know if I can and if it is safe if there is a third wire with ground in other rooms (kitchen and bathroom). I will just add that pulling the cable from the above-mentioned rooms is out of the question, because I am newly renovated and I feel sorry to chip the walls, etc. .

Regards and thank you in advance for the reply.

There is no other way to help that. Zero connects to the neutral after the differential. There are many ways, ie sticking a rod into the ground, CO / water installation, but it will not give a good grounding, it can even be dangerous!
In your case, I would advise pulling the cable from the room to the bathroom or kitchen.

I will not create a new topic. In my house, there is no grounding in the whole house (it is connected to the "minus"). I am not going to be replacing the entire garage installation for long. Is digging a hole and driving a copper pipe to which the earth is connected enough? What the real grounding should look like and where should it be connected, if the hole is dangerous. I have to give up this "minus" in the garage, because when they changed the installation in our house recently, when a concrete mixer "electrocuted" me, I guessed that they changed "plus" with "minus".

// EDIT: It says "plus", "minus" because I forgot what it is called in AC. "Plus" is where the test tube shines, and "minus" is the second hole in the socket. ;]

If you do not have a residual current device, you can do a reset. Zero to the pin, from the pin to the right contact of the socket, phase on the left.

Hello.

I've said it many times, but so be it. Water installations and what cannot be used as grounding.

For the TNC system, connect the PEN (zero) conductor to the protective contact (pin) and then jumper it with the working contact.


Kisses

Thanks for the reply

The question is, how do I know what network system is used in the apartment I live in, if there is a separate grounding cable in the bathroom and kitchen. A colleague at work told me that this cable goes to the so-called 0. Ehh ... I'm already a little bit into it .

Mariusz Ch. wrote:

Hello.

I've said it many times, but so be it. Water installations and what cannot be used as grounding.

Kisses

You can explain to me, buddy, why you say so.

http://bezel.com.pl/instalacje.html#Uziemienia

Quote:

Mariusz Ch. he wrote:
Hello.

I've said it many times, but so be it. Water installations and what cannot be used as grounding.

Kisses



You can explain to me, buddy, why you say so.

http://bezel.com.pl/instalacje.html#Uziemienia

It is not allowed to ground on such installations now, because some connections are made of PVC pipes and they already constitute a grounding break. The discontinuity of the protective conductor is much worse than the lack of such protection.
In the event of an insulation breakdown on a device and its short-circuit to the housing, a dangerous potential appears on the housings of all other devices of protection class I.

SciroWroc wrote:

Quote:

Mariusz Ch. he wrote:
Hello.

I've said it many times, but so be it. Water installations and what cannot be used as grounding.

Kisses



You can explain to me, buddy, why you say so.

http://bezel.com.pl/instalacje.html#Uziemienia

It is not allowed to ground on such installations now, because some connections are made of PVC pipes and they already constitute a grounding break. The discontinuity of the protective conductor is much worse than the lack of such protection.
In the event of a breakdown of insulation on a device and its short-circuit to the housing, a dangerous potential appears on the housings of all other devices of protection class I.

I agree with you.

But I will not agree with the categorical NO BO NO.
If you know the type of water and CO installation (or other natural earth electrodes) in the building, how it is made (what materials), then I do not see any obstacles in using this installation for grounding.

Welcome back.



I have the grounding shown in fig. 1 throughout the house. But in the garage I would like to have it as on the other one. Will such a grounding work?

Goral-81 wrote:

Mariusz Ch. wrote:

Hello.

I've said it many times, but so be it. Water installations and what cannot be used as grounding.

Kisses

You can explain to me, buddy, why you say so.

http://bezel.com.pl/instalacje.html#Uziemienia

A completely different story is mentioned in a multi-sheet standard. It is about earth electrodes, not some "left earth". The earth electrode can be natural, ring, foundation .... If there are installations made of metal pipes, they are additionally connected to the equalizing rail and earth electrode.

Kisses

Mariusz Ch. wrote:

Goral-81 wrote:

Mariusz Ch. wrote:

Hello.

I've said it many times, but so be it. Water installations and what cannot be used as grounding.

Kisses

You can explain to me, buddy, why you say so.

http://bezel.com.pl/instalacje.html#Uziemienia

A completely different story is mentioned in a multi-sheet standard. It is about earth electrodes, not some "left earth". The earth electrode can be natural, ring, foundation .... If there are installations made of metal pipes, they are additionally connected to the equalizing rail and earth electrode.

Kisses

If you can, give specific standards and points, I will be happy to read them.

Ehh ... I can see the topic kicked off, but not to my advantage .

So me again. If in the bathroom and kitchen I have a third cable in the socket, and in my room I only have two cables, can I do the so-called reset? If so, is it safe, because when you read the website http://www.kablomedia.pulawy.pl/bezpiecz.html you can get scared . Help ...

Let me just add that I live in a block built in '94 and I have no idea what network system was used.

greetings

You have a mixed network layout, as in most of those years (94), kitchen and bathroom TN-CS, and the rest of the TN-C apartment. You can do zeroing, you've already read how to do it right.

https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/68_1248179975.jpg Fig.1

You can see the best here.

And everything is clear. Thank you very much!

greetings

Goral-81 Search, the general number of the standard is given on the bezel page (PN-IEC 60050) ;)

StasiuX

StasiuX wrote:

................... Let me just add that I live in a block of flats built in '94 and I have no idea what network system was used. .................

No one knows but certainly not in line with the regulations in force at the time. At that time, the TNC-S system was in force (PN-91 ... 95 / E-05009 standard) and this is how the installation should be performed.

You have obtained the comprehensive answer to the question here

https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic1375269.html#6804655

and here (picture 1)

https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic1375269.html#6805207




Charles57

I do not know if such a grounding will do the job, as nothing is known about it. You should do this as follows:

at the entrance to the garage, the PEN conductor should be split into PE and N, and the place of separation should be grounded with a rod earth electrode. The earth electrode resistance must not exceed 10 ? under the worst circumstances. It is best to measure the resistance in summer, after a week of hot weather.
Next, you can conduct a three-wire installation.


Kisses


Edit:

lubamet

Can you provide the source of these revelations ??

Own observations, they just pulled an additional wire from the switchgear from the PEN bus, only that they gave a yellow-green color and so to the kitchen and bathroom.
Such a black pudding, but it was fashionable in its time.

Hmmmmmmmm. If I observe such a "practice", then ......... I am asking for the SEP license number very politely. Everything is probably still clear

Mariusz Ch. wrote:

Goral-81 wrote:

Mariusz Ch. wrote:

Hello.

I've said it many times, but so be it. Water installations and what cannot be used as grounding.

Kisses

You can explain to me, buddy, why you say so.

http://bezel.com.pl/instalacje.html#Uziemienia

A completely different story is mentioned in a multi-sheet standard. It is about earth electrodes, not some "left earth". The earth electrode can be natural, ring, foundation .... If there are installations made of metal pipes, they are additionally connected to the equalizing rail and earth electrode.

Kisses

Buddy still does not find confirmation of your categorical NO BO NO.
And this is why, the quotation from PN-IEC 60364-5-54 is valid until 01/06/2009, but so far my sources do not have a replacement PN-HD 60364-5-54: 2007 (maybe it is different but it turns out when I get to her):

"542.2 Earths
542.2.1 The following may be used as earth electrodes:
- metal rods or pipes in the ground;
- metal strips or wires in the ground;
- metal plates in the ground;
- metal elements placed in the foundations;
- metal reinforcement for concrete;
Note - Particular care must be taken in the case of prestressed concrete structures.
- metal water pipe systems complying with the requirements of 542.2.5
- other grounded devices suitable for this purpose (see also 542.2.6).
Note - The effectiveness of a given earth electrode depends on the local ground conditions, therefore, depending on these conditions and the required resistance value, one or more earth electrodes should be used.
The value of the earth electrode resistance can be calculated or measured.
A practical guide is being prepared.
542.2.2. The type and depth of the earth electrodes should be such that the drying and freezing of the ground would not increase their resistance above the required value.
542.2.3 The materials and structures of the electrodes are to be resistant to mechanical damage caused by corrosion.
542.2.4 When designing earthing electrodes, the possibility of an increase in the resistance of the earth electrodes caused by corrosion is to be taken into account.
542.2.5 Metal water piping systems may be used as earthing electrodes, provided the consent of the entity operating the water pipelines has been obtained, and any planned changes to the water piping system are agreed with the user of the electrical system.
Note - It is recommended that the reliability of the earthing system should not depend on environmental conditions.
542.2.6 Used metal pipe systems other than those mentioned in 542.2.5 (e.g. for flammable liquids or gases, heating) shall not be used as earth electrodes intended for protective purposes.
Note - This requirement does not exclude the provision of equipotential bonding with other installations and elements in use, in accordance with 41.
542.2.7 Lead sheaths and other metal sheaths of cables not exposed to damage due to excessive corrosion may be used as earth electrodes, provided that the consent of the entity operating the cables has been obtained, and the user of the electrical installation is notified of any planned change of cables, which could affect their suitability as an earth electrode. "

Moderated By Mariusz Ch.:

Enough of writing nonsense. It is important to understand the difference between buried municipal water supplies and domestic plumbing.

Mariusz Ch. wrote:

...
Charles57

I do not know if such a grounding will do the job, as nothing is known about it. You should do this as follows:

at the entrance of the installation to the garage, the PEN conductor should be split into PE and N, and the place of separation should be grounded with a rod earth electrode. The earth electrode resistance must not exceed 10 ? under the worst circumstances. It is best to measure the resistance in summer, after a week of hot weather.
Next, you can conduct a three-wire installation.
...

1. How to separate this wire as only 2 cables go? L and PEN. I'm not sure if it's PEN, but I have PEN sockets all over the house, so it says PEN.

2. Well, probably the stupidest question xd. How to measure the earth resistance? One multimeter cable to PE and the other where? Into the ground? I would have to dig wells.

3. I just remembered. In the basement of the house there is a pipe that used to go to the pump and that was used by water from the well. Is the connection to this pipe enough? The well has not been used for a long time, because ... probably the water is poisoned or something ... I don't know, but I wouldn't drink this water;]

4. After I'm going to dig a hole and put my earth electrode there. It will be best if it digs into the moist layer in the heat?

5. Can the lightning rod be an earth electrode?

// EDIT: I just looked at the methods of measuring the resistance of earth electrodes. Rather, I will give the hay with the earth electrode and do everything on the PEN. Unless a lightning rod or a well is enough;]

PS I am only answering now, because I had not noticed that Mariusz Ch. he answered me. Then I checked, read the posts carefully and ... I recommend the same to other "beginners" electrode users. Sometimes it looks silly someone replied and in the next post the question is the same.

Mariusz Ch This is how disagreements arise, and it was enough to write:
The building's internal water systems cannot be used as grounding.

And how would you, my friend, treat the entrance of the metal water supply connection to the building as an internal installation or an element of the water supply network and can such a connection be used as grounding?