Is It Safe to Connect PC Grounding Wire to Radiator if Socket Lacks Ground?

I have the following problem, in the place where I have now attacked the computer, no one thought to give a socket with grounding, so now I'm wondering what to do here, connect the housing with the radiator, can I connect the grounding in the plug from the power supply to the radiator? I know it's a lay question, but it has been bothering me for some time.

is not better to put a socket with grounding ??

You should definitely not connect the casing with elements of the plumbing system.
Generally, it all depends on the anti-shock protection adopted in the building / room. In most cases, a reset can be performed. However, I suggest you contact an electrician.

So there is no other option than to carve out some walls and get an electrician to install a grounded outlet? I really admire the genesis of apartment builders in blocks of flats.

no forging, if you can not buy a socket (contact) with a pin and get an electrician, let him connect you instead of what you have and the problem will be solved. You do not need to hammer anything. Zero is connected to the pin, it is better than the previously used grounding.

Eeee the same socket with a pin is supposed to be grounding ?? Since I have two cables connected to 2 holes in the socket without a pin, and in the socket with a pin I have 3 cables, how is the installation of a socket with a pin not connected to this third earthing cable to be the ground

such grounding was appropriate in earlier electrical installations (zero was shorted to ground) and, to be honest, only newer installations have a third wire serving as ground. To tell the truth, it is better to use zero as ground than nothing at all. I also live in a block of flats and I did not have a grounded socket for the computer.

Hello
Well, it used to be zeroing, i.e. connecting the pin in the socket to the neutral wire, it was a substitute for grounding. Currently, grounding should be used, i.e. the pin in the socket should be connected to the grounding. If your installation has a ground wire (according to the standard, the cable is yellow-green), replace the socket with one with a pin, connect the pin to the ground wire. If you have a 2-wire installation, then by connecting such a socket you will have to perform zeroing, i.e. connect the pin to the neutral wire (blue color according to the standard).

martinifan thanks for the thorough explanation , this question comes to my mind, I remember a scene like that, I had a vacuum cleaner connected to a socket without grounding, and oddly enough, the plug was very hot during work and I finally decided to do something about it. I unfold them and in the center there is a view as you describe, i.e. zeroing. Could this lead to such a strange situation ??

heating up of the plug is only and only the problem of a bad cable connection with the plug elements or too much "slack" of the plug in the socket, nothing else. The zeroing and electric shock protection system has nothing to do with it, it is only a coincidence that you had such a case. As one of my colleagues mentioned earlier, it is better to connect the "pin" to the neutral-neutral cable than to leave it loose, because it is really one and the same and the use of a protective conductor (green and yellow), i.e. a 3-wire installation, makes sense only and exclusively when using a residual current device, and in its absence, the protective conductor connected to the "pin" is nothing more than the neutral (blue-neutral) wire. taking into account that most of the existing installations are 2-wire, even with the use of a residual-current circuit breaker in such a network, separation of the protective conductor in front of this switch from the neutral conductor (network Tn-cs) So don't worry, the connection, the "short-circuit" of the neutral with the "pin" is the most correct and recommended (if we do not have a differential)

Some time ago, when I had a computer under my desk, I had a box connected to the radiator
I am pleased with this solution

jozgaw wrote:

You do not need to hammer anything. Zero is connected to the pin, it is better than the previously used grounding.

This is the transition from TN-C to TN-S on the socket. I had such a problem at home. There was voltage on the computer case. After connecting the pin in the zero socket in the installation, the problem is over
Although it is a makeshift solution, it is better than nothing. The installation should be of the TN-S type, i.e. neutral (N) and protective earthing (PE, usually yellow-green) separately from the transformer. This solution works until the neutral conductor in the installation burns out

Buddy SerDel22, I used to have an antique tube radio to which you had to connect the antenna and grounding. And it was the radiator that was used as grounding. After turning on the radio, all the coils gave a nice bubble and only a dummy was left from the radio.

Added after 1 [hours] 26 [minutes]:

jozgaw wrote:

[...] Zero is connected to the pin, it is better than the grounding used in the past.

Sorry to ask, but why would zeroing be better than grounding?

przemo2147 wrote:

such grounding was appropriate in earlier installations (the neutral was shorted to the ground) [...]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess it's called reset , not ground .

system wrote:

[...] with a neutral cable [...]

I can understand if someone PEN conductor ( protective-neutral ) calls "zero", but my colleague introduces a term that is completely unfamiliar to me.

SerDel22 wrote:

Some time ago, when I had a computer under my desk, I had a box connected to the radiator
I am proud of this solution

But on the forum, don't let your friend boast about it. Such advice may be considered harmful.

sq3evp wrote:

jozgaw wrote:

You do not need to hammer anything. Zero is connected to the pin, it is better than the previously used grounding.

It is a transition from TN-C to TN-S on the socket. [...]

So the use of zeroing in the socket changes my network system z TNC on TNS ? Seriously? Very interesting...

forniceps
I would not like my colleague to take offense at me, but my colleague's posts show that my colleague does not have enough knowledge to safely and correct modify your installation. Let a qualified electrician take care of it all the better. Any mistake may cost someone health and even life! Is it worth the risk to save a few zlotys?
PS Reset is not possible in every installation.

I didn't want to mislead anyone or cause confusion ...
But when I had a computer for about two years with grounding connected to the radiator, nothing bad happened to me
And I did it because, like my colleague, I did not have grounding in the socket.

Figi wrote:

sq3evp wrote:

It is a transition from TN-C to TN-S on the socket. [...]

So the use of zeroing in the socket changes my network system z TNC on TNS ? Seriously? Very interesting...

A change, mister, buddy and in a fundamental way.
There is a socket TN-C and from the socket TN-S . A deal is formed TN-CS on the receiver.
This is how you can apply on the web TN-C differential by separating the wire in front of the differential PEN and splitting it into PE and N .
I refer to at least
Wikipedia

the heater can always be connected to the computer casing and other devices. demanding protection against electric shock because in each building there are equalizing connections with the ground and the N conductor (or 0 if you prefer) in the TN-C network because that's what you have in your apartment [/url]

Of two possibilities (two bad ones):

- connection of the zero pin in the socket to the neutral of the network.

- connection of the computer housing with the radiator.

I would choose the latter.

In the first case, without having sufficient knowledge of the quality of the installation, I would be concerned that a break in the neutral conductor in the initial part of the installation would cause phase voltage to appear on my computer case.
It can be caused by the power supply circuits or by another receiver.
I used to live in a block with a 2-wire aluminum installation. In addition, the nodes were sockets. The cable went to the clamp and went further from under the screw. Joy itself.

The second method is also not the happiest.
You have to be sure that the water installation is run with steel pipes (not vinidur pipes). So be sure it is sufficient grounding.
So if there was a breakdown in the circuits of the power supply (not necessarily a computer - printer, scanner, etc.) and for this reason a dangerous voltage would appear on the computer casing, I would feel safer than in the first case.
Of course, you should take into account the problems resulting from the connection, for example, of the antenna to the TV card. This way we connect the mass of the cable antenna to the radiator. But that's another topic.

with this radiator it can be different, in my case it is a completely lost idea and the most between zero in the socket and the F connector of the satellite tuner, I have to get down to it sometime and ground the CO furnace because the water goes plastic

blur wrote:

with this radiator it can be different, in my case it is a completely lost idea

Half of the supply voltage indicates that the radiator is nowhere connected to the N wire in the socket. If N and PE were connected in a switchgear, it would not be 110V.

blur wrote:

between the zero in the socket and the F connector of the satellite tuner, I have to do it sometime and ground the CO furnace because the water goes plastic

The F connector is on the ground of the tuner, which is definitely not zero in the installation

jozgaw wrote:

Zero is connected to the pin, it is better than the previously used grounding.

Buddy (but I see a few similar ideas, so I address it to everyone, not enumerating by nicknames), I will say this ... so far, I have avoided critical evaluation of certain statements, because I do not know everything myself, and I know that there is no obligation to others also had knowledge on all topics, but does a colleague know (read 'colleagues know') that in a certain situation, his advice can help someone move to another, supposedly better world? If your colleague does not know the principles of electric shock protection, and does not know what the difference between zeroing and grounding is, please do not advise someone to make experiments. There is a chance that a colleague has grounding in the apartment (although if it is a block, then there is zeroing at 99%), but if he had zeroing, there may be problems ... you must not mix these methods. I do not want to write so I paste the link on the post in which I spoke more about this topic.
https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic641802.html

forniceps wrote:

... I really admire the genesis of apartment builders in blocks of flats.

Not all sockets use a grounding pin, because most household appliances on the housings have two such squares, they mean an insulated housing, and there is no possibility of voltage on the housing, and there is no need to use additional protection against electric shock.

Figi wrote:

jozgaw wrote:

[...] Zero is connected to the pin, it is better than the grounding used in the past.

Sorry to ask, but why would zeroing be better than grounding?

Well, therefore, zeroing is better (safer) than grounding, because the effective value of grounding depends on many factors, e.g. weather conditions, soil moisture, conductivity of the materials used (a hoop can corrode after a few years and it is not so effective due to the lack of a good connection with earth) .. and many more. The earthing installation is to operate for several dozen years, and during this time the conductivity of the earth, if only due to the lowering of the groundwater level, may change significantly. Zeroing, on the other hand, is an appropriate connection of the MV / LV transformer and the PEN conductor is discharged from the transformer's neutral point, simultaneously fulfilling the role of the neutral N for the supply and protective PE lines, only in the switchgear before the residual current circuit breaker or the main switch the conductor is separated into PE and N. Therefore, there is no question of changing the conditions after a few years, although due to the properties of the connections and the materials used, every 5 years the effectiveness of zeroing, the effectiveness of residual current devices and the short-circuit loop of the installation should be measured.

Figi wrote:

I would not like my colleague to take offense at me, but my colleague's posts show that my colleague does not have enough knowledge to safely and correct modify your installation. Let a qualified electrician take care of it all the better. Any mistake may cost someone health and even life! Is it worth risking to save a few zlotys?
PS Reset is not possible in every installation.

This statement is correct, and everyone should think about it home electricians

Summary at the end
The happiest solution to connecting the "pin" to the radiator will be the version that if a colleague has a differential in the home installation, then he or she may throw out all the time, which will cut off the electricity in the whole house.

I fully agree with Figa, if my friend has no idea about it and does not know the basic principles of electric shock protection, it is better not to do it, so as not to move to the other world.

Of course you can.
Only not everyone who gets a professional answer will listen to it. Sometimes there are people who think they know more than someone who has theoretical and practical knowledge in this field.
Unfortunately, there are no jokes with the flow. Not one home-grown "artist electrician" he can make such a habit that philosophers have never dreamed of it.

jozgaw wrote:

no forging, if you can not buy a socket (contact) with a pin and get an electrician, let him connect you instead of what you have and the problem will be solved. You do not need to hammer anything. Zero is connected to the pin, it is better than the previously used grounding.

And in the event of the death of one of your household members, will you also take responsibility for bad advice?

Plumpi and what is the better protection against electric shock in 20-30-year-old and older blocks where there is also an aluminum installation? New installation with a third independent wire or grounding? I did not advise him to do it himself, but only to take an ELECTRICIAN. Read a friend's post carefully Romek_xx . He wrote exactly and to the point how it should be dealt with. I live in a block of flats with aluminum installation and as someone wrote earlier that the sockets also serve as rosettes, branches are made for further installation. And the only protection is to reset. I put it on my computer socket with zeroed pin separate, independent circuit with its own fuse. AND I DON'T ADVISE ANYONE - WHO IS ALWAYS KNOWN - TO TOUCH THE ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION. THIS IS A VERY DANGEROUS AND INVISIBLE KILLER . As for the grounding, I agree with Romek_xx again. The sister-in-law complained that her washing machine was "kicking" - they lived in a 20-kilo-year-old single-family house, where there was an earthing as security. I disconnected the ground and connected the "zero", and the washing machine calmed down - it stopped "kicking".

jozgaw wrote:

Plumpi and what better protection do you see in 20-30-year-old and older blocks with an aluminum installation?

Certainly not the reset system.

First, we need to know:

1. What protection do we expect and what technical and financial means are we devoted to the implementation of the protection?
2. What installation are we dealing with, ie what type of protection was used when designing this installation?
3. What is its technical condition and is it possible to provide protection as originally designed?
4. Will the fault loop impedance provide effective protection?
5. Has the installation been modified, eg main risers have been replaced, has the main switchboard been earthed?

Only when you know the answers to all of the above questions, you can discuss what is better and advise in such a way as not to expose the author of the thread to more serious security.

ad.1
a) Zeroing by bridging the pin with zero is the cheapest solution, but it depends on many factors. First, it must comply with the current regulations or with the applicable regulations, according to which the installation was designed.
In order to comply with the applicable regulations, the wires to the socket should be replaced with larger ones, i.e. a minimum of 10mm2 for copper or a minimum of 16mm2 for aluminum. In practice, this involves breaking the walls and replacing the wires. In this case, it is wise and cheaper to lay a 3x2.5mm2 wire and make a standard TN-S or TN-CS system, i.e. with L (phase), N (formerly known as neutral) and PE (protective) conductors. Moreover, for such a zeroing to be certain, it was necessary to ensure perfect connections on the protective-neutral PEN conductor and remove all fuses on this conductor, and such fuses were very often installed in the blocks.
In order to perform the zeroing system in accordance with the regulations that were in force at the time when the installation was designed, it would have to be designed as a zeroing installation, i.e. it would have to be in other rooms and in the documentation of this building.
Moreover, it would be necessary to ensure perfect contact connections on the neutral wire and to make sure that there is no fuse on this wire anywhere.
b) Execution of an earthed equalizing circuit - connect all pins in the sockets in this apartment with all metal installations in this apartment and the TV installation. this is slightly more expensive than zeroing. however, contrary to appearances, it provides quite good protection at a relatively low cost, because the protective conductor can be led even outside, e.g. in strips, or fastened without strips with special pins with bands to the wall. This only requires an additional cable to be installed in the existing installation.
c) The most expensive, but the most effective protection in accordance with the applicable regulations.
It consists in replacing the cables with new 3-core cables throughout the premises and making a circuit with a PE protective conductor connected to a PEN conductor on a vertical basis. In addition, it would also be necessary to perform the equipotential bonding as described earlier.

ad. 2 and 3
If it is a 2-wire installation and has a fuseon the neutral conductor or burned out contacts in the rosettes on this conductor, it is absolutely forbidden to do zeroing, as it may be fatal. It is better to do nothing, because this voltage from the computer casing flows to the casing through the power supply filter capacitors and is not harmful to human health and life. In this situation, it would be necessary to return to point 1
If it is a system with zeroing and the conditions are met, that there is no fuse on the neutral wire, that the contacts in the rosettes are perfect, and that such an installation has been designed, zeroing can be performed.

ad. 4
Such measurements must be performed by a person with appropriate SEP qualifications for protective measurements.
This person will determine which type of protection can be performed and how effective it will be.

ad. 5
If the risers were modernized (and this is often the case in old buildings) and e.g. a 25mm2 or thicker cable was laid, the most reasonable solution would be to make an installation in accordance with applicable regulations, i.e. TN-S or TN-CS (point 1c) by adding an additional protective conductor by gently hammering it into the wall or leading it over the top, or by replacing all the wires, or by resetting it, keeping the principle that there can be no fuse on zero and bad contacts. And by the way, I would also add to the equalization of potentials.

So, as you can see, there is no perfect and universal answer to the above question.

It seems to me that this forum aims to help others through good advice, and not if you are "scientific arguments" that will be of no use to anyone and will not save our life or help my colleague forniceps. Installation blocks will not change either. Anyway, it's a pity for words, for empty talk.

jozgaw wrote:

get an electrician connect you instead of what you have and the problem will be solved.

jozgaw wrote:

It seems to me that this forum aims to help others through good advice, and not if you are "scientific arguments" that will be of no use to anyone and will not save our life or help my colleague forniceps. They will not change the installation blocks either. Anyway, it's a pity for words, for empty talk.

jozgaw wrote:

get an electrician connect you instead of what you have and the problem will be solved.

And this is professional advice, not idle and unprofessional talk like "Zero connects to the pin is better than the previously used grounding" :)

Coming back to the scientific arguments, it so happens that I know something about it and I know that, firstly, the installation must comply with the regulations, and secondly, it must be effective.
In the case of the proposed connection of the pin to zero, it is neither legal nor effective if a number of requirements are not met, which, as you can see, you do not know.
In turn, limiting myself to the statement "take an electrician" could be misinterpreted, so I had to define more precisely why this is so. If you insist that this is not a help, forgive, but it certainly is, because it will protect the author of the plot from philosophers who, taking a sentence in the subject, do not have the appropriate knowledge

Plumpi wrote:

jozgaw wrote:

Plumpi and what better protection do you see in 20-30-year-old and older blocks with an aluminum installation?

Certainly not the reset system.

First, we need to know:
...
2. What installation are we dealing with, ie what type of protection was used when designing this installation?
....

At these points, the colleague contradicts himself ... and if there is a zeroing system in the block, what does the colleague advise?

Plumpi wrote:

ad. 2 and 3
If it is a 2-wire installation and has a fuse in the neutral wire or burned out contacts in rosettes on this wire, it is absolutely forbidden to do zeroing, as it may be fatal. It is better to do nothing, because this voltage from the computer casing flows to the casing through the power supply filter capacitors and is not harmful to human health and life. In this situation, it would be necessary to return to point 1
If it is a system with zeroing and the conditions are met, there is no fuse in the neutral wire that the contacts in the rosettes are perfect and that such an installation has been designed, it can be reset ...

Sorry, my colleague, despite my several years of electrical practice and my qualifications, I have not encountered a zero-reset installation in which a "zero" fuse would be used, because it may be life-threatening, as a colleague himself mentioned, and do not meet the basic protection against electric shock. Well, unless the installation was made by some home-grown electrician.

Plumpi wrote:

ad.1
a) Zeroing by bridging the pin with zero is the cheapest solution, but it depends on many factors. First, it must comply with the current regulations or with the applicable regulations, according to which the installation was designed.
In order to comply with applicable regulations, the wires to the socket should be replaced with larger ones, i.e. a minimum of 10mm2 for copper or a minimum of 16mm2 for aluminum ...

And what are the regulations that specify that 10 or 16 mm wires should be connected to a socket with a zeroing applied? Maybe I'm not up to date on the rules, but I haven't heard of them. So I will use my colleague's knowledge to update my knowledge.
To apply zeroing, the transformer must be properly connected and the proper protection applied to the utility grid, not regulations. The protection method is written in the marking that the colleague will find on the Trafo MV / LV, the use of protection in the receivers behind the transformer is dependent on this, and not on the regulations and assessment of whether it is cheaper and whether it pays off for someone. If someone is killed by the electricity, or they become a pacemakerhearts, apart from the "human damage", the prosecutor's office will remain and explain who and why screwed up such installations, not to mention "forget about compensation", because the insurance will definitely check the cause of death.

I did not think that it is such a debatable issue. You suggest that an electrician would be the best, and I will add that I was inclined to do so from the beginning. Since the choice was an electrician, now another one comes to mind, namely, how can I be sure that the first advertisement is competent? Do power plants or power plants that provide me with voltage have "their" proven professionals, or maybe in a housing cooperative I can find someone who in the end colloquially says "ground my computer"?