I am asking for help with gas heating. I note that I do not know the subject (which is worse, I am a woman), but I noticed that the gas boiler works strangely (in my opinion) in every room, thermoregulators are installed on the radiators, also in the room where there is a room thermostat, which is responsible for switching on boiler due to the set values (temperature and hours). Thermoregulators are set at 3-3.5 which according to the manufacturer corresponds to 20 degrees of heat, while the room thermostat at 20.5 degrees. During heating, the gas boiler fires very often, every 2-3 minutes you can hear it switching on and after a few seconds it goes out. Should thermoregulators on radiators in a room with a thermostat be turned to the maximum? Will this cause the boiler to light up less frequently? I always thought that with the settings on 3-3.5 the gas consumption would be lower, but I found out from a friend that the frequency of ignition of the flame affects the gas consumption and I do not know what to do.
The stove has a thermostat, so the temperature in the room with the thermostat is of the greatest importance. It is strange that the stove is lit so often. Maybe the hysteresis is too small. Enter the type of oven and thermostat and, if possible, the parameters that are set on the controller.
Boiler Immergas Nike Star 24 3 E, the thermostat setting is 19.5 degrees, the lowest value (when it drops lower, it turns on), additional heating to 20.5 degrees. The thermostat is set to operate the boiler after 2 hours at 6-8, 12-14, 18-20.
The boiler may be oversized, hence it is clocking (it has too high power in relation to the object's demand). As for the thermostats (thermostatic heads), I believe that in the room where the room regulator is located, the head should either be unscrewed to the maximum or removed at all (the room regulator should be responsible for the temperature), while in other rooms it should be also adjust with the heads, because it may happen that the other rooms will heat up much more than the one with the regulator (e.g. they will be sunny or have oversized radiators) and as a result it would be much higher in them temperature, if not for the adjustment of the heads. This can be the case when, for example, the room regulator is placed in a room that is not exposed to sunlight, radiators - in relation to the cubature - are not too large, windows - leaky, and in other rooms there can be strong solar operation, hermetic windows, large heaters and the like. the rooms would then have a sauna. It is generally believed that the bathroom should have a higher temperature than the rooms (some people catch a cold in the bathrooms, especially old men who undress to the waist when shaving and brushing their teeth - it was there with my father) - this can be solved by giving the bathroom an oversized heater.
Thermoregulators are set at 3-3.5 which according to the manufacturer corresponds to 20 degrees of heat, while the room thermostat at 20.5 degrees.
Usually 3 is 20 degrees and 4 is 24 degrees. There are 3 dashes between 3 and 4 and each of them is 1 degree more, i.e. 21, 22, 23 degrees respectively.
But this setting works well when you have a constant supply of hot water at a certain temperature. You have a gas boiler, so you have a boiler room at home and when the boiler turns on for a few seconds, the water in the installation is cold, when the regulator demands heat, the boiler then works like crazy. The thermostatic head at the radiator has a slow reaction time, usually it takes about 23 minutes to close the water supply to the radiator and the same opening takes some time, and during this time your boiler will turn on and off many times and the water temperature will fluctuate in the system.
In order for the heat produced by the boiler to be received, an appropriate water flow is required, and the water flow is obtained when we unscrew the thermostatic heads more, but then the risk that the room will be overheated automatically increases. But usually it cannot be otherwise.
Zbigniew Rusek wrote:
I think that in the room where the room regulator is located, the head should either be unscrewed to the maximum or removed at all (the room regulator should be responsible for the temperature)
As a colleague wrote above, in the room where you have the regulator, set the heads to the maximum, because the function of the head is taken over by the room regulator, which will turn off the boiler if necessary. The problem may be in the case of a heavily oversized boiler and as I associate without searching on Google, yours is somewhere around 9kW as the minimum power. It may happen that the room regulator will demand heating, and the boiler will turn off the burner, because the water in the boiler reaches the set maximum temperature. Then it is useful to control the maximum power of the boiler, because it is factory set to the maximum and then you have to manually change it if no one has ever modified it before.
Nat9 wrote:
The thermostat is set to operate the boiler after 2 hours at 6-8, 12-14, 18-20.
Do you have an insulated building that the boiler is off between 20-6 ?? In practice, the heating should be turned on 24 hours a day and the room regulator, depending on the temperature in the room, decides whether to turn on the heating or not, because if, for example, at 16, the temperature will drop below 19.5, the room regulator will turn on the heating only at 6 p.m., i.e. between 4 p.m. and 6 p.m., the room will cool down even deeper. In a situation where the burner in the boiler turns on for a few seconds, heating the rooms to the set temperature can be a challenge.
For the test, you can unscrew all the thermostatic heads on the radiators to the maximum and then the burner in the boiler will probably run longer. Gas consumption will increase, but the boiler will not turn on for a second cycle of operation, but will heat up longer. A lot depends on what kind of premises you heat, whether it is energy-efficient or it is, for example, an apartment in an old, uninsulated tenement house. Unfortunately, twisting the heads too much usually results in the boiler treating like crazy and the gas flowing into the chimney, because a lot of this heat does not end up in the rooms. Either unscrewed thermostatic heads at radiators giving heat in the premises and relatively normal operation of the boiler or twisted heads giving a lower temperature, lower gas bills but mega timing of the boiler. There is not much philosophy here, you can only look for intermediate, optimal settings to find a certain compromise and not go with bags when the gas bills come
As for the head in the room with the regulator. In my opinion, setting the head to, for example, 4 (i.e. about 23 degrees) at a given temperature on the controller 20-21 is not the stupidest thing. The main point is that the head in the room with the controller never fully closes, but only slightly chokes the flow when the temperature in the room approaches the set temperature on the controller.
Otherwise, especially with wired regulators, it may happen that the temperature, e.g. in the hall with a kitchen open to it, where the regulator is, is already ok (the regulator turns off the boiler, additionally possible heat from the oven, cooker) and 18 degrees in the rooms.
I have a head in the kitchen at 4 at 20 degrees on the regulator. The heater is slightly less warm at the bottom just before the boiler is turned off. The rooms are heated (bedroom 3, living room and living room for 4), and the bathroom (for 5). Regulator in the hall, kitchen open to the hall.
Of course, the wireless controller can be moved, and the wired one can be planned in the fastest-cooling room, but we don't always know which one it will be.
In my opinion, setting the head to, for example, 4 (i.e. about 23 degrees) at a set temperature on the controller 20-21 is not the stupidest thing
In the case of a boiler with a minimum power of 9.5 kW, and this is the author's boiler, I consider it a bad solution. With such a boiler without adequate water flows, the water in the boiler quickly reaches the set maximum and the burner turns off and hence the timing of the boiler.
By design, the room regulator is in the coldest room and there we set the heads to the maximum or remove them so that no one accidentally twists it and restricts the flow of water through the radiator.
Wojewoda82 wrote:
It may happen that the temperature, e.g. in the hall with a kitchen open to it, where the regulator is located, is already ok (the regulator turns off the boiler, additionally possible heat from the oven, cooker) and 18 degrees in the rooms.
Therefore, here it is important to precisely dose the power of the radiators and their proportional selection to the radiator is the controller. In other words, radiators in other rooms should have proportionally adjusted power, so that all radiators report heat demand more or less at the same time. If one of them is too small, it may be as you write, i.e. a room with a regulator and without a head will already heat up, and other rooms may be underheated. If they are overheated, then you can twist the head a bit, but the more you twist the head, the more we choke the water flow, i.e. the more we increase the timing of the boiler. The author did not write what heats, but with a minimum power of 9.5 kW, I can almost 99.99% say that the boiler is oversized. I heat 100m2 in an old, non-insulated building and, as I estimate for frosts -20, I need less than 8kW, and I also have a boiler with a minimum power of 9.5kW and I am already struggling with the problem of an oversized boiler and boiler timing. Although I made small modifications to the central heating installation myself and changed the boiler settings to minimize negative effects as much as possible. And so the final effect is much better than what the professionals have left me, who boast decades of experience in the industry, which
If the author has a small premises of 50m2 and a 9.5kW boiler, she is even more screwed up than I am ;)
Wojewoda82 wrote:
I have a head in the kitchen at 4 at 20 degrees on the regulator. The heater is slightly less warm at the bottom just before the boiler is turned off. The rooms are heated (bedroom 3, living room and living room for 4), and the bathroom (for 5). Regulator in the hall, kitchen open to the hall.
Each case should be treated individually, but the experiences of others may be the starting point for getting to know your own central heating and boiler, but I still think that you do not have a boiler with a minimum power of 9.5kW for a 50-100m2 heated premises.
I have a minimum boiler power of 5.2kW at 50 degrees (DD MCR HOME 2F) at 67 meters, I heat with 48 degrees of power and the power of 80 ribs at 48 degrees of heaters is the same as the boiler's power. Sometimes, after a long operation, 49 or 50 degrees will appear on the boiler, but this does not cause clocking. CH boiler throttled to half the maximum power, i.e. from 20 to 10kW)
Currently, at around 0 degrees outside, the boiler works about 50% of the daytime and about 20% of the night.
With a minimum power of 9.5 kW, it is actually hard to miss frequent clocking, unless it would be a house with 200 m2 and 10 large radiators.
For me, with a maximum power of 10KW (where above 9.5kW is the minimum), after about 15 minutes it reaches 65 degrees on the power supply, there would be no condensation, mixing dust, hot flashes from the radiators.
And looking at it, it would be useful with modulation from 2-3kW, I could lower the supply temperature by a few degrees, especially in the spring-autumn periods with temperatures around 10 degrees outside.
Do you have an insulated building that the boiler is off between 20-6 ?? In practice, the heating should be turned on 24 hours a day and the room regulator, depending on the temperature in the room, decides whether to turn on the heating or not, because if, for example, at 16, the temperature will drop below 19.5, the room regulator will turn on the heating only at 6 p.m., i.e. between 4 p.m. and 6 p.m., the room will cool down even deeper. In a situation where the burner in the boiler turns on for a few seconds, heating the rooms to the set temperature can be a challenge.
In general, when the temperature drops below 19.5 degrees, the boiler turns on immediately without waiting for the time set in the room thermostat. At night, when the temperature drops, the apartment heats up. With the above settings, the minimum temperature maintained in the apartment is 19.5 degrees.
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For the test, you can unscrew all the thermostatic heads on the radiators to the maximum and then the burner in the boiler will probably run longer. Gas consumption will increase, but the boiler will not turn on for a second cycle of operation, but will heat up longer. A lot depends on what kind of premises you heat, whether it is energy-efficient or it is, for example, an apartment in an old, uninsulated tenement house. Unfortunately, twisting the heads too much usually results in the boiler treating like crazy and the gas flowing into the chimney, because a lot of this heat does not end up in the rooms. Either unscrewed thermostatic heads at radiators giving heat in the premises and relatively normal operation of the boiler or twisted heads giving a lower temperature, lower gas bills but mega timing of the boiler. There is not much philosophy here, you can only look for intermediate, optimal settings to find a certain compromise and not go with bags when the gas bills come
So I will try to set the heads to 4 and we will see what it will look like. In that case, it makes no sense to clock the boiler when the radiators start to cool down after about an hour when you unscrew the head to 3-3.5. Neither gas nor heat unfortunately. I must admit that I was looking for savings in the installation of radiators, the apartment is not big, but paying huge gas bills also does not make me smile. Thanks for the hint :)
Added after 9 [minutes]:
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Wojewoda82 wrote:
In my opinion, setting the head to, for example, 4 (i.e. about 23 degrees) at a set temperature on the controller 20-21 is not the stupidest thing
In the case of a boiler with a minimum power of 9.5 kW, and this is the author's boiler, I consider it a bad solution. With such a boiler without adequate water flows, the water in the boiler quickly reaches the set maximum and the burner turns off and hence the timing of the boiler.
By design, the room regulator is in the coldest room and there we set the heads to the maximum or remove them so that no one accidentally twists it and restricts the flow of water through the radiator.
I understand that you should set them to 6 and leave them alone? Do not screw or combine?
Wojewoda82 wrote:
It may happen that the temperature, e.g. in the hall with a kitchen open to it, where the regulator is located, is already ok (the regulator turns off the boiler, additionally possible heat from the oven, cooker) and 18 degrees in the rooms.
Therefore, here it is important to precisely dose the power of the radiators and their proportional selection to the radiator is the controller. In other words, radiators in other rooms should have proportionally adjusted power, so that all radiators report heat demand more or less at the same time. If one of them is too small, it may be as you write, i.e. a room with a regulator and without a head will already heat up, and other rooms may be underheated. If they are overheated, then you can twist the head a bit, but the more you twist the head, the more we choke the water flow, i.e. the more we increase the timing of the boiler. The author did not write what heats, but with a minimum power of 9.5 kW, I can almost 99.99% say that the boiler is oversized. I heat 100m2 in an old, non-insulated building and, as I estimate for frosts -20, I need less than 8kW, and I also have a boiler with a minimum power of 9.5kW and I am already struggling with the problem of an oversized boiler and boiler timing.
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If the author has a small premises of 50m2 and a 9.5kW boiler, she is even more screwed up than I am
Right to the point. So it is. The apartment has less than 50 m2.
Wojewoda82 wrote:
I have a head in the kitchen at 4 at 20 degrees on the regulator. The heater is slightly less warm at the bottom just before the boiler is turned off. The rooms are heated (bedroom 3, living room and living room for 4), and the bathroom (for 5). Regulator in the hall, kitchen open to the hall.
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Each case should be treated individually, but the experiences of others may be the starting point for getting to know your own central heating and boiler, but I still think that you do not have a boiler with a minimum power of 9.5kW for a 50-100m2 heated premises.
Well, I have no choice but to try to figure out the heaters on the radiators and see when the gas consumption is the lowest. In general, the apartment is heated and everything is fine, I am annoyed by this timing because I think it is too frequent and I have a feeling of wasting gas.
Oh crowd. A 50 m2 stove with a minimum power of 9.5, where you have the maximum needed at minus 20, probably around 5-6 kW.
When I see the atmosphere, this one was killing it, hence such a poor modulation.
All in all, whatever the heaters in such an apartment are 50m2 to receive 9.5kW power from the furnace at a reasonable temperature of about 60-70 degrees, it would probably have to be on the entire walls.
The stove is clocked because the radiators do not receive heat from the boiler. I don't know how much supply temperature you have now, but you can try to raise it from 10 degrees. At a higher temperature, the radiators have a higher power and can collect heat from the boiler and it will not work for 2-3 minutes.
But the radiators will agitate the dust in the apartment and the thermal comfort will drop, because when the radiators are hot, it will be warm / hot in the apartment, it will be time to cool down the radiators, the temperature will drop. Over and over again
PS you have not written anything about the radiators you have in your apartment, type, type, dimensions, power, number of radiators. The best is the sum of the power of the radiators at 50 stages of supply, 70, 90
I understand that you should set them to 6 and leave them alone? Do not screw or combine?
If you have thermostatic heads with position 6 as max, set 6 on the head in the room where you have the room regulator and let it stay that way.
For the test on other radiators, also unscrew to max 6 and see how your boiler will behave, i.e. when the temperature drops to 19.5 degrees and the room regulator will turn on the heating. I mean how long (how many minutes) the burner will run before it turns off due to reaching the upper temperature set on the boiler. How much time will elapse before the controller senses 20.5 degrees in the room and turns the heating off. How many cycles on / off the burner in the boiler will be between switching the heating on by the controller at 19.5 and switching it off at 20.5 in the meantime.
Anyway, enter what temperature you have set on the boiler as the temperature of the heating water on the supply, because we do not know it. Increasing the temperature in the boiler will extend the heating cycle a bit, but will also increase the temperature differences, so it has to be selected experimentally. You can also change the temperature range on the controller, instead of 19.5-20.5 it is e.g. 20-21. You have to think about it a bit and choose the optimal variant.
If so, in the boiler MENU you can set the maximum power for what, but it requires freedom when using electronics such as a smartphone, computer, etc., because if you have 2 left hands for such matters, there is no need to rummage yourself. According to the instructions, the P6 parameter corresponds to the power and there the power is set as a percentage. As for your needs, you can easily set the value of 50, in theory it will give 50% or 12kW. If I understand the instructions correctly, the boiler fires at minimum power and then gradually increases power over the course of 10 minutes, until it reaches the maximum set under P6.
Nat9 wrote:
So it is. The apartment has less than 50 m2.
For a building that is not insulated, it is possible to assume 100W / m2, which gives about 5kW for frost -20. But at home, I noticed that the computationally accepted 85W / m2 is also OK and then for you, for 50m2, it would be 4.3kW for frost -20. If you have an insulated building, if we take 60W / m2, it gives 3kW for frost -20. If you divide in half what is for frost -20, the required power will be obtained for temperatures of 0 degrees, but for the variant, when we heat for 24 hours.
Due to the fact that your boiler has a minimum of 9.5 kW, it must heat impulse, which means that it should provide large portions of energy in a short time, so that it is sufficient on average for your needs. As a result, there will be periods of hot, and then cooling down, which is such an average comfort. Assuming that for -20 you need 4.3kW, then for about 0 it will be up to about 2.2kW. 2.2kW x 24h = 52.8kWh of energy. If we assume that your boiler works on average with a power of 10kW, in order to produce 52.8kWh of energy, it must operate at least about 5.3h (52.8Kwh / 10kW) per day.
As mentioned before, the boiler must have an adequate water flow in the installation so that the radiators receive the heat generated by the boiler. The lower the flow through the radiator, the slower it receives heat and the faster the temperature rise in the boiler. The faster the water flow, the faster the heat is collected by the radiator and the slower the temperature rise in the boiler. Although due to the large disproportion of the minimum power of the boiler and your needs, the differences in time may be small.
Generally, when you set all radiators to 6, see how the temperature will be distributed in individual rooms, if some rooms are too warm, you can start twisting the heads, but not up to 3 to 20 degrees, but as the lower extreme value, take, for example, the equivalent of 22 degrees, to avoid close the water flow through the radiator completely.
Switching the boiler on for a few seconds is a mistake, if you manage to set the installation so that the boiler burner works for at least a few minutes, it will be a big positive change, although the feeling of thermal comfort will change then, because more heat energy will be pumped into the radiator, and each has a different threshold for perceiving heat and heat. You have to try and experiment, good luck
Thanks for your help, I will try and let you know if I break something (although then I will be sure to call someone who knows about it). The boiler turns off at 65 degrees, the radiators are 5-4 large and one in the bathroom is quite small, but since it is not a ribbed radiator, I do not know how to determine their size (I can measure and give cm - typical woman ) well, keep your fingers crossed that I don't get blown up and thank you again for your help!
My radiators at 67 meters, more for condensate, i.e. larger than would be needed for the atmosphere, have a power of 5.2 KW at about 50 degrees. You are chasing your heaters at 65 degrees in a smaller apartment. Five times, counting, you probably have a similar power of heaters at 65 degrees as I do at 50. Except that my stove modulates from almost 2 times lower power, so it does not clock at these 50 degrees.
Additionally, by chasing the atmosphere at 65 degrees, there is a risk of condensation of water vapor from the flue gases in the exchanger, which will cause its rapid corrosion.
Confirm 2 things: - is this boiler really an atmosphere - is the burner flame visible and the boiler draws air from the apartment (or read the exact name of the boiler, take a photo etc.)? - are the radiators hot at their entire height just before the burner in the boiler is turned off (they can be a bit cooler at the bottom, but not cold)? With the thermostatic heads unscrewed to the maximum.
My radiators at 67 meters, more for condensate, i.e. larger than would be needed for the atmosphere, have a power of 5.2 KW at about 50 degrees.
For me, on 100m2 at 50/30 the radiators give a maximum of about 3.3 kW, for 50/35 about 3.9 kW, and for 50/40 about 4.6 kW, which is not much worse than yours It is the author that I would expect at most half of what I have, i.e. about 2.3kW for 50/40, and if it has an insulated building, even less.
Wojewoda82 wrote:
Additionally, by chasing the atmosphere at 65 degrees, there is a risk of condensation of water vapor from the flue gases in the exchanger, which will cause its rapid corrosion.
hmm, I didn't notice it. I had the condensation when I set the boiler to about 40-45 degrees and the maximum power for CH = minimum boiler power. Back then, the condensation was like I had never seen it before. Increasing the temperature and power eliminated the problem. Recently, I did tests with minimum power but for a temperature of 57-59 degrees and I did not notice any condensation, so I do not believe in the theory with these 65 degrees. I do not know what exactly the intensity of this condensation depends on, but in the case of the atmosphere, I am not worried about its corrosion, because this boiler will eventually have to be replaced. In the author's case, if she has to replace the boiler with a new one, it will not be a big loss, because the power of 9.5kW in the new boiler will be reduced to e.g. about 3.3kW for 50/30 with the Junkers Cerapur Compact ZWB24-1DE boiler, so I do not see any point in taking special care of this little useful 9.5kW monster. As long as it works, let it go, if it falls, it will be replaced with a new boiler, but you have to think about new expenses. My atmosphere has been working for over 12 years but I have no idea how much longer it will work. Some service technicians claimed that for my model the result of 18 years is the most realistic, as long as the boiler will be serviced.
Generally dependent on the return temperature, the structure of the exchanger, etc. The atmosphere has a different air-to-gas ratio (uncontrolled), in the condensate and turbo boiler the air is strictly "regulated" with a fan and with the correct settings, after the flue gas analysis, the condensate begins to form on the walls of the primary exchanger, the exhaust gas will cool down in the exchanger to about 57 degrees (e.g. from the exchanger wall).
The atmosphere, as a rule, has an excess of air (because if it had a deficiency plus a weak draft, there would be a possibility of eternal sleep for residents from carbon monoxide), so the condensate will probably be released at a lower temperature (excess air lowers the dew point temperature). But what is the value, due to the fact that the atmosphere does not regulate the air, nobody knows at what temperature at a given boiler condensate in the exchanger will release and start to eat it.
Generally dependent on return temperature, heat exchanger design etc.
In theory, it is correct, but I have always had conditions conducive to condensation, and yet I almost never noticed it in the last 20 years, except for the case described above, where the top under the chimney was normally dirty.
Wojewoda82 wrote:
the condensate begins to separate on the walls of the primary exchanger when the flue gas cools down to about 57 degrees in the exchanger (e.g. from the exchanger wall)
Apparently, condensate is released when the boiler water return temperature is below 57 degrees. Boiler manufacturers usually give the highest efficiency for 50/30, so I can assume that the most condensate will be when the boiler water has 30 degrees on the return, hence the effect of pouring condensate when I heated the boiler to 40-45 degrees. When the temperature rises, the amount of condensate drops and I, as a user, do not experience it tangibly, especially since with a bit more power the burner operation time is quite short, i.e. the boiler gives a larger portion of energy in a short time, so the possibilities of condensation of more condensate are limited.
Generally, for the atmosphere, the higher the water temperature, the better, because the chance of condensation decreases, so the exchanger has a chance to break longer. I have temperatures lower than 65 degrees and the boiler is fine so far, so I do not consider 65 degrees in the atmosphere a critical value. Only if at 0 outside the boiler heats the water to 65 degrees, it is interesting how many it would have to heat in frosts of -10. If there were problems with reheating at -10, then the radiators would have to be oversized a bit, but this in turn would favor greater condensation in transitional periods, as was the case with me, when I heated to 40 degrees, because I wanted a milder temperature without sudden temperature jumps. There is no perfect solution, there is always a but.
Therefore, the current best option is a condensate boiler and oversized radiators / underfloor heating. Safe (no carbon monoxide poisoning) and economically.
You let the minimum temperature that the radiators will take with the given minimum boiler power (at the minimum power the condensate has the best efficiency). If it is spring / autumn, the boiler is clocked, but not every 5 minutes, it only works, for example, for half an hour and will turn on in another 2-4 hours (according to the programmer), etc. The colder it is, the more it turns on (also according to the programmer and internal temperature sensor). For severe frosts, if the current temperature of the radiators is not enough, when the boiler works 24 hours, to keep the apartment warm, you increase the temperature on the stove by 5-10 degrees.
With sufficiently large radiators / underfloor heating, you will not come out of condensation even once.
The magical 57 degrees of return and condensation in the exchanger applies to a condensing boiler, where, after analyzing the exhaust gases, the service technician sets the gas proportions so that the CO2 result in the exhaust gases is within a narrow range for minimum and maximum power. Based on the CO2 reading in the flue gas, the gas to air ratio is set, which causes the flue gas to precipitate dew on the heat exchanger around 57 degrees. When returning 57 degrees, the condensation is marginal because the flue gas must be 57 degrees, not part of the exchanger. If the exchanger is also 57 degrees, it is not really what to cool down.
Atmospheric boilers draw much more air for a given amount of gas, hence the dew point drops (the relative humidity of the exhaust gases in the atmospheric boiler is lower due to excess air).
PS put the kettle full of cold water on the large gas ring. There will be dew on the side of the kettle for a while, and as the water heats up, it will start to disappear from the side of the kettle. This is an example of "atmosphere"
Safe (no carbon monoxide poisoning) and economically.
It is worth remembering that you can be 100% sure when you do not have a gas appliance at home. The condensates have a closed combustion chamber, so in theory they are safe, but it must not be forgotten that it is still a gas device, so there is some risk in an emergency. In addition, in multi-family buildings, such as blocks of flats, you can get carbon monoxide as a gift from a neighbor, so condensate does not solve all problems with carbon monoxide. Therefore, as an additional security element, I prefer a carbon monoxide detector, which ensures constant monitoring of the situation in my premises and a greater sense of security in this regard.
Eh, I live on the ground floor, carbon monoxide is lighter than air, I have a grille with gravity ventilation at the ceiling (recently replaced cartridges, pulls like Sasha Gray). The carbon monoxide sensor is also in the kitchen, where there is a stove :)
I think that compared to the atmosphere, the condesate is like an angel next to the devil.
carbon monoxide is lighter than air, I have a grille with gravity ventilation at the ceiling (recently replaced cartridges)
Well, carbon monoxide is lighter than air, so in principle it will move upwards, provided that the ventilation is working properly and the inflow of carbon monoxide is small. And often and densely with gravity ventilation there is a problem with it. If it does not work properly or the ventilation grille will act as a blast of air, it will finally be at the level of the head of the inhabitants and, as it used to be, the adults fell first, but they were saved by the fact that they had a sharp child, perhaps 8 years old, who called and called for help by phone . From the description, the dispatcher guessed what was going on, and thus the parents survived the child as well. If the child was "stupider" or sat in his room not knowing what was happening to his parents, then probably everyone would die.
My radiators at 67 meters, more for condensate, i.e. larger than would be needed for the atmosphere, have a power of 5.2 KW at about 50 degrees. You are chasing your heaters at 65 degrees in a smaller apartment. Five times, counting, you probably have a similar power of heaters at 65 degrees as I do at 50. Except that my stove modulates from almost 2 times lower power, so it does not clock at these 50 degrees.
Additionally, by chasing the atmosphere at 65 degrees, there is a risk of condensation of water vapor from the flue gases in the exchanger, which will cause its rapid corrosion.
Confirm 2 things: - is this boiler really an atmosphere - is the burner flame visible and the boiler draws air from the apartment (or read the exact name of the boiler, take a photo etc.)? - are the radiators hot at their entire height just before the burner in the boiler is turned off (they can be a bit cooler at the bottom, but not cold)? With the thermostatic heads unscrewed to the maximum.
I can't see the flame, I can't see well from the bottom. The radiators are hot all over with their heads turned up, when twisted to 3-3.5 they were cooler, and at the bottom they were cold. The boiler is exactly like in the photo.
After unscrewing the heads, did the boiler stop clocking every now and then (and I do not count the signal from the programmer here, only extinguishing the burner, pump overrun, re-ignition of the burner and so on)?
If not, but the times have been extended, then you just have to increase the temperature on the stove because your radiators are too small for the boiler's minimum power.
If it helped and the stove does not clock, I would still raise it by a minimum of 5. 2 case. Thermostatic heads on radiators should, in my opinion, be set in such a way that if it is to be in the room, e.g. 22 degrees, and according to the scale on the head, for such a temperature it is e.g. 2, then set to 3. The boiler does not work all the time (it is not heat from the heat and power plant), when the temperature in the heated room increases, the thermostatic head slowly closes the valve, which reduces the water flow through the radiator, and thus the power of the radiator decreases. If a room overheats by 0.5 degrees, it will not be a tragedy.
Putting the thermostatic heads on an oversized gas boiler that works every now and then (not constantly) is like chasing a bunny. It is not about catching up and practically cutting off the radiator from the rest of the installation, but about reducing the radiator's power (anyway, the heat escapes through the walls, ceiling, etc.). And that's the job of the thermostatic head in this case
PS I have the heads set to 3 to 4 and the temperature on the programmer is 20 degrees. No room is overheated.
The radiators are hot all over with their heads turned up, when twisted to 3-3.5 they were cooler, and at the bottom they were cold.
This is normal. I do not know if the circulation pump in your boiler modulates the power to some extent or it goes to the maximum. If it must provide at least 1000 l / h in the case of a 24kW boiler, then the water has to creep after installation. If you've unscrewed the heads to the maximum, the water flows through the radiator in the fullest possible stream and there is no time to cool down to make the bottom noticeably cooler. With the head set to 3 (20), the water flow was limited, so the hot water cooled down faster than it had the opportunity to reach the outlet of the radiator, but then the boiler clocked like crazy and the burner turned on for several seconds as you wrote. With the heads open to the maximum, the burner must run for several minutes non-stop before it reaches the set 65 degrees and turns off.
You are reticent and you have to be pulled by the tongue so that you can say something more of yourself. In any case, you can see how the burner works after opening the heads to the maximum, if somewhere it overheats, twist the heads slightly, but keep in mind that then the burner cycle will be correspondingly shorter. Anyway, with twisted heads, the cycles will never be the same. Sometimes it can be longer and sometimes shorter, depending on the available water flow at the moment, i.e. whether the head is opening the valve because it finds that it is getting cold, or is just closing it because it is getting too warm.
Now set everything up so that you are warm, the boiler does not clock too much and the gas bills do not shock you
After unscrewing the heads, did the boiler stop clocking every now and then (and I do not count the signal from the programmer here, only extinguishing the burner, pump overrun, re-ignition of the burner and so on)? If not, but the times have been extended, then you just have to increase the temperature on the stove because your radiators are too small for the boiler's minimum power.
It stopped clocking every now and then, it appears much less often. I will not rummage in it myself, knowing my luck, I would have blown up or ruined something. I have to call someone who knows how to set the boiler up, the last "expert" said that everything is ok and the timing is normal every now and then. I don't know if he didn't know, or if it was just easier for him to take money for fondling a young woman.
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I do not know if the circulation pump in your boiler modulates the power to some extent or it goes to the maximum.
You are surprised - I don't know that either.
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You are reticent and you have to be pulled by the tongue so that you can say something more of yourself.
As I mentioned, I do not know about boilers, heating and appropriate settings. In the 27 years of my life, I have just had to deal with a gas boiler and this is how it works. It only gives information that you ask and which I am able to answer without writing nonsense. I guess it's better than writing nonsense? ;)
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Now set everything up so that you are warm, the boiler does not clock too much and the gas bills do not shock you
I will do that too. Thanks to you, I was reminded of the possibility of carbon monoxide release and the need for proper ventilation in the room where the boiler is located - I have to reduce the tightness of the windows because I have adjusted everything so that as little cold air as possible enters me. Thank you for your help
I will not rummage in it myself, knowing my luck, I would have blown up or ruined something.
Changing the temperature on the boiler is one of the user service areas, so there is no risk of gas explosion, etc. Download the manual and read it, or better print it yourself so that you can always consult it when in doubt. At most, changing the maximum power exceeds normal use, because it means entering the boiler MENU, but changing the supply water temperature is a normal thing that is the responsibility of every gas boiler user, so do not panic.
Yesterday I sent a message on priv but as I see you haven't read it yet.
Nat9 wrote:
the last "expert" stated that everything is ok and the timing is normal every now and then
The timing is normal and it will be, but not to the extent you wrote earlier that the burner fired for a period counted in seconds. As you can see, with a slight adjustment of the heads, you have a direct impact on how long the burner works and how often the boiler runs on / off cycles and, I think, the burner now works for a period counted in minutes.
How many minutes is the burner running now before it turns off due to reaching the set 65 degrees?
Nat9 wrote:
I don't know if he didn't know, or if it was just easier for him to take money for fondling a young woman.
In my experience, service technicians, even if they know each other, do not want to waste time on precise setting of the boiler and installation. They do whatever it takes to clear the cash and go on a different assignment, because time is money. Therefore, no one will set up your installation better than you, because you can have fun trying different settings until you find what suits you best.
Nat9 wrote:
You are surprised - I don't know that either
The question of the pump was not a question for you, but that was my general thought. If the valves are too tight, with an efficient pump, there may be, for example, noises in the installation, but due to the fact that the boiler is timing, they are short-lived, but some installations can hum so much that I could not sleep with them. And the efficiency of the pump directly affects the temperature difference between the water inlet and outlet from the radiator.
Nat9 wrote:
It only gives information that you ask and which I am able to answer without writing nonsense. Probably better than writing nonsense?
It is better not to write nonsense, but about whether the timing has decreased or not, it took ages to wait As for me, it is a quick change in the settings of the heads and you can almost immediately see if it has changed something and to what extent and you can write Besides, so far I do not know if you have an insulated building, or if it is an old tenement house, etc., if the room overheats after changing the settings, how do you feel thermal comfort, what are your impressions etc. I suspected that you are a much older woman,because from a young person I would expect better communication ;)
This first meeting with the gas boiler is behind you and as you can see nothing terrible is happening, so more self-confidence and it will be OK.
