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Addressing Regular Hot Water Shortage in Lodz Housing Cooperative - Seeking Guidance

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Treść została przetłumaczona polish » english Zobacz oryginalną wersję tematu
  • #1 18206490
    Panda1112
    Level 3  
    Good morning

    I know that the issue does not quite fit into the department - hence my apologies - but this is probably the only department related to the hot water circuit.

    I am asking you for help with reporting problems with hot water to the Lodz housing cooperative. I've reported it many times myself, but apparently I'm using the wrong arguments, because the plumber they send does literally nothing in the subject each time. It does not solve or even diagnose the problem. So this time, instead of reporting, I will go to them with a letter, but I want to put everything together and educate myself on the subject first.

    Facts:
    - The problem is no hot water. More specifically, draining large amounts of cold water, after which hot water appears. Of course, filling the hot water meter at the same time. In the morning it is calmly 10 liters, during the day it is a little better. The temperature of the drained water is really not suitable for brushing teeth, much less for bathing;
    - it is the 2nd floor in a 4-story block, a block of large slabs from the 1970s;
    - the installation shaft in the bathroom has 3 pipes (warm, cold and one so thin (circulation, I think) - the third one is usually lukewarm or cold);
    - the problem is only in the bathroom - in the kitchen hot water appears quite quickly around the clock;
    - the problem concerns the cold (autumn-winter) months - during this time it occurs every day with varying intensity;
    - the problem is annual - since I live here it will be the third or fourth time;
    - the problem disappears in the spring when it gets warmer;
    - the plumber of the cooperative suggested that maybe someone's water was backing up in the battery mixer and that they should install non-return valves on hot water. I decided to do it myself, paying him 80 zlotys, but as far as I know, not all neighbors went for it;
    - unfortunately, almost nobody young lives in the block, hence when I walked around the premises in my department, only in one case the residents confirmed that they also have a problem. I suspect, unfortunately, that older people have lower water consumption, and besides, we drain this water for them in pipes because we use it often - both in the morning and in the evening;
    - we have hot water in the bathroom quickly only if other neighbors use - or have recently used - enough for them to be warm (I can see it by the temperature of the pipe);
    - I bought a simple thermometer with a probe and for a long time the probe showed me the temperature of the hot water pipe (slightly above the point of intake to my premises). When using water, the pipe temperatures are around 40 degrees to a max of 48 from what I remember. Interestingly, I once observed how the same pipe cools down rapidly (to 36 degrees) while using the shower. But it was a one-time observation and after that - just for the record - I decided on a non-return valve. But the valve solved nothing;
    - when the water is not pouring, the temperature drops (also during the day) to 23-26 degrees, and once at night it was 19 degrees. When I told the plumber about it, he said that it is not possible and that such temperature measurement is false because the pipe has its own heat capacity;
    - many times - especially last year, I invaded the technical and construction department of our cooperative. They sent the same can't-can't plumber every time.

    My suspicions
    - it seems to me that it started when they changed the water levels in the estate (but I don't know if I remember it correctly - it was 4 years ago, and I didn't live here before);
    -I don't know if it can be directly related to the beginning of the heating period because this year the problem started a few days before the temperature in the radiators was increased - although not long before;
    - once I noticed that before the plumber comes to me on the first floor after reporting, he goes to the basement first - after that the hot water pipe became warm. So I don't know what he was doing there, but then I go crazy because when he enters the premises, there is hot water.

    Please advice what to do to deal with this. Especially:
    - what to include in the application (I heard about some building law, saying that after 2 liters of water it should be 50 degrees - please correct me if I'm wrong).
    - to whom should the letter be addressed?
    - I am afraid of a situation that after writing the letter, they will come to me from the cooperative with a thermometer, and then, for example, one of the apartments above me will drain cold water from the pipes (during normal use) and I do not really know how to protect myself against it. Possibly the plumber will bury something in the basement again...

    I am asking for help, because I cannot afford another increase in fees for wasted water :-(
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  • #2 18206643
    kindlar
    Level 42  
    Probably the block has an old infrastructure without a third pipe, i.e. hot water circulation. Hence bills for allegedly heated hot water. It would be logical if you could measure the temperature and the amount of hot water at the same time.
  • #3 18206653
    Wojewoda82
    Level 28  
    The plumber turns on the circulation going down to the basement. Apparently, it is either not turned on all the time, or it is turned on only cyclically in some hours, or it is completely broken.
    "
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  • #4 18206670
    Panda1112
    Level 3  
    Wojewoda82 wrote:
    The plumber turns on the circulation going down to the basement. Apparently, it is either not turned on all the time, or it is turned on only cyclically in some hours, or it is completely broken.

    Thank you for your answer. I'm going to post a graph with the temperature that the thermometer sensor records at different times in writing to the cooperative, but I'm not sure where to attach it. To the hot water pipe under my branch? Or to the circulation pipe?
  • #5 18206675
    kindlar
    Level 42  
    For circulation, because yours will be cool when you're not downloading.
  • #6 18206682
    Panda1112
    Level 3  
    kindlar wrote:
    For circulation, because yours will be cool when you're not downloading.

    I don't know much about it, I asked the plumber if the circulation pipe should be warm, he told me no ... What a man ...

    Thank you for confirming my assumptions.
  • #7 18207302
    kierbedz4
    Level 36  
    The plumber in the cooperative has the keys to the heating substation, but he is not able to remove all faults.
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  • #8 18208369
    Zbigniew Rusek
    Level 38  
    Maybe the heat exchanger has too little power?
  • #9 18208667
    Wojewoda82
    Level 28  
    Rather cost-saving reasons. DHW circulation involves certain costs, both of energy from the node and electricity. It is possible that even the residents themselves (as many older people wrote) once asked to turn on the circulation or turn it on only at a few times of the day, just to pay a little less.

    Alternatively, the pumps break down and the cooperative is a waste of money for a decent repair.

    DHW circulation will probably be less than the percentage of energy from the node in the heating season (probably closer to a per mille). And the season is just starting, it has not reached full power so there is definitely a reserve on the exchanger.
  • #10 18209049
    Inkwizycja
    Level 30  
    Poor circulation. I had this on several objects after replacing levels and verticals. Nobody regulated it (crinkled it), and there were cases that there were even no shut-off valves. The plumber goes to the basement and closes the circulations on other risers so that yours is ok. And you don't turn around. Later, some neighbor, Czesio, probably sticks in, which states that he's not doing well and regulates himself in his own way. How to tell if there is a problem with circulation: you go to the basement and start feeling the hot water and circulation pipes on individual risers, starting from the node. They should have the same warmth. If any riser is cold, it means that the circulation is not working. Surely there are no such miracles as thermostatic valves on the circulation?

    Circulation in multi-family residential buildings works non-stop and should always be warm. Turning off the circulation only makes sense in single-family houses when you know that from 8, for example, to 17 no one is at home. The heating ambulance will ask the question: is there hot water and whether it works properly at other draw-off points, if so, it is the matter of the owner of the installation, i.e. the cooperative. Connect the sensor to the circulation will be proof that it is not working. I also met a case that on the top floor no one used hot water and the air was collecting at the hot water-circulation connection, creating a plug.
  • #11 18210529
    Panda1112
    Level 3  
    Thank you gentlemen for participating in the discussion. Thanks to the helpful suggestions of Mr. @Diodak, it was possible to determine that someone was actually messing with the circulation valves by cutting them to 45 degrees (as @Inquisition also suspected). I released these valves to 100% but the problem - despite the improvement - is still there. The worst thing is that we bathe first in the morning (which happens quite often). Today, for example, at 8.00 I had lukewarm water (good and that) after about 5 liters, but yesterday morning it was clearly worse (although the circulation valves were already open (I corrected them on 07.10 in the evening)). Following your advice, I regularly measured the temperature of the circulation pipe. I attach the measurements made at different times:

    ---

    08/10/2019 / 00:26
    29.9º

    08/10/2019 / 06:09
    22.5º

    08/10/2019 / 07:40
    22.8º

    08/10/2019 / 08:37
    22º

    08.10.2019 / 09:00 / after bathing
    23.9º

    08/10/2019 / 09:18 / 15 minutes after bathing
    36º

    08.10.2019 / 10:00
    30º

    08/10/2019 / 11:22
    29.2º

    08/10/2019 / 12:01
    25.9º

    08/10/2019 / 12:40
    32.6º

    08/10/2019 / 14:31
    25.3º

    08.10.2019 / 16:00
    24.5º

    08/10/2019 / 16:51
    23.9º

    08/10/2019 / 17:17
    23.9º

    08/10/2019 / 17:35
    23.6º

    08/10/2019 / 18:48
    23.2º

    08/10/2019 / 19:10
    23.2º

    08.10.2019 / 19:21 / after bathing
    24.3º

    08/10/2019 / 19:46
    30.37º

    08/10/2019 / 19:46
    33.7º

    08/10/2019 20:20
    36.4º

    08/10/2019 / 22:17
    33.5º

    08/10/2019 / 23:35
    30.4º

    09/10/2019 / 00:30
    26.9º

    09/10/2019 / 06:33
    26.1º

    09/10/2019 / 07:34
    25.1º

    09/10/2019 / 07:58
    25.6º

    09/10/2019 / 08:40 / 15 minutes after bathing
    35.4º

    09/10/2019 / 12:08
    27.3º

    09/10/2019 / 13:24
    28º

    09/10/2019 / 17:14
    31º

    09/10/2019 / 18:20
    27º

    09.10.2019 / 18:50 / one of the neighbors was taking a bath
    36º

    ---

    The maximum recorded temperature on the circulation pipe is 38.7º.

    The minimum recorded temperature on the circulation pipe is 20.8º (probably before I turned the circulation valves to 100%).

    I would also pay attention to this after @Inkwizycja wrote:
    Quote:
    How to tell if there is a problem with circulation: you go to the basement and start feeling the hot water and circulation pipes on individual risers, starting from the node. They should have the same warmth. If any riser is cold, it means that the circulation is not working. Surely there are no such miracles as thermostatic valves on the circulation?


    Of course, I have not seen thermostatic valves, but not everything is accessible (photos in the attachments). What is important, however, is that Mr as there is a branch in the basement to the kitchen riser and the bathroom riser, in fact both the hot water and circulation pipes are often much cooler for the bathroom riser (photos in attachments). Maybe this will somehow lead to the source of the problem?

    Please give me ideas for next steps.
  • #12 18213357
    Panda1112
    Level 3  
    Sorry for the double post, but I have some new information and photos. I walked around the basement today to learn more about the structure of our installation. What I thought was a knot turned out to be something completely different (that orange door with the word "Laundry"). Our block has 2 staircases - in each there are two symmetrical rows of apartments, and for each apartment there are 2 risers. So there should be 8 pieces - I found 6 of them. As it turned out, our pawns that I presented in the previous photos are the last ones in this structure. However, I do not understand why the kitchen water is always warm quickly and in the bathroom as warm as in the kitchen it is impossible to feel ... What's most interesting, when checking the valves of the other risers, I noticed that they all have circulations twisted at 45 degrees ... What this is about? Who can do that and why? I have attached pictures and a simplified installation diagram.

    As for the temperatures, there is an improvement after unscrewing the valves of our risers, but not completely. The measurements from the circulation tube in the last hours are:
    ---
    09/10/19 / 20:25
    28.5º

    10/10/19 / 07:30
    27.3º

    10/10/19 / 10:01
    30.6º

    10/10/19 / 10:25 / after bath
    29.9º

    10/10/19 / 10:39 / 15 minutes after bathing
    36.3º

    10/10/19 / 11:14
    31.2º

    10/10/19 / 12:46
    36º

    10/10/19 / 14:13
    29.2º

    10/10/19 / 15:19
    28.5º

    10/10/19 / 17:18
    29º

    10/10/19 / 18:18 / 15 minutes after bathing
    33.5º

    10/10/19 / 20:23
    32º

    10/10/19 / 20:23
    32º

    10/10/19 / 22:22
    27.5º

    10/10/19 / 23:01
    27º

    11/10/19 / 05:26
    22.8º


    11/10/19 / 08:05
    24.9º

    10/11/19 08:26 / 15 minutes after bathing
    35.3º

    10/11/19 10:25
    30.6º

    11/10/19 13:10
    27.3º
    ---

    I guess the results are:

    11/10/19 / 05:26
    22.8º

    They're still wrong, right?
  • #13 18213418
    Zbigniew Rusek
    Level 38  
    I'm a bit surprised by these half-open ball valves. After all, ball valves are not regulating valves, but shut-off ones, i.e. they should be in the "open" or "closed" position (in this case, of course, "open" and "closed" when you need to cut off the water supply due to, for example, a failure).
  • #14 18213472
    Panda1112
    Level 3  
    That's exactly what I heard too - that the adjustment is done with the angle ones. In addition, when our bathroom riser was at 45 degrees, there were problems I wrote about in the first post - 10 liters of water to drain every morning, and sometimes during the day.
  • #15 18213602
    Zbigniew Rusek
    Level 38  
    In these photos, the hot water output from this washbasin faucet is much lower than if it was heated with Junkers. It is a thin stream and I can't even imagine using a bathtub in this situation (it would probably take an hour or more to fill it).
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  • #16 18213901
    Panda1112
    Level 3  
    Zbigniew Rusek wrote:
    In these photos, the hot water output from this washbasin faucet is much lower than if it was heated with Junkers. It is a thin stream and I can't even imagine using a bathtub in this situation (it would probably take an hour or more to fill it).

    Sorry - I removed these photos, because with this sink specifically I was able to determine that the problem is the valve at the sink faucet - because both streams are comparable on the faucet in the toilet and in the shower.
  • #17 18214091
    Inkwizycja
    Level 30  
    The installation is with thermostatic valves on the circulation (these X-shaped devices - you need a special contact thermometer and a set of allen keys to set). Now when I see the photos, I will say that the entire "modernization" was done at cost because the risers were not replaced (they are still galvanized). As the risers are overgrown, no miracle (closing, opening) with valves will do anything. You should have a 15mm pipe passage, and in fact it is, for example, 3mm because it has become so overgrown with stone. It could be that the thermostat is sticking. Do this, close all circulations one by one (mark the position of the lever with a marker so that you can restore the original settings) and check if yours will start. If not, it's either holding the thermostat or so overgrown.
  • #18 18214123
    misiekpb
    Level 22  
    With this breakthrough of cold water to warm, it is possible. Except you're not your neighbor's. And that's where the check valves should be. If your neighbor has a puncture, they won't help you. Breakthroughs are common in thermostatic faucets. I also met a case that the tenant had a "washing machine", i.e. a handset with an alloy and a permanently open battery.
    This causes the flow of cold water (which has a higher pressure) to the hot water and then, of course, circulation to the node.
    If you use hot water and it will have the correct temperature, after turning it off, grab the circulation pipe and see if it is warm and if it does not cool down after a while. When it cools down, it means that someone is going cold to warm. And if it's cold, it means that the circulation is not working.
  • #20 18751992
    kierbedz4
    Level 36  
    Write a letter to the housing cooperative that due to the significantly lowered parameters of hot water, you will pay as for cold water. I do not understand the topic of hot water with such low parameters. The grandpa of his granddaughter must set the temperature of the water for washing hands because turning on only hot water would cause burns. The water is probably close to 65 degrees C. The water temperature is set on the switchgear panel and remains constantly at the same level.

Topic summary

Residents of a Lodz housing cooperative are experiencing a persistent hot water shortage, characterized by the need to drain significant amounts of cold water before hot water is available. The issue is attributed to potential problems with the building's hot water circulation system, which may lack a third pipe for effective circulation. Discussions reveal that the plumber's interventions have been inadequate, with suggestions that the circulation may be turned off or malfunctioning. Residents are advised to measure water temperatures at various points in the system and check the status of circulation valves. Concerns about the heat exchanger's capacity and the possibility of cost-saving measures affecting circulation have also been raised. The community is encouraged to document their findings and communicate formally with the housing cooperative regarding the inadequate hot water supply.
Summary generated by the language model.
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