Choosing a home automation system – Fibaro user reviews, blind control

Name: Choosing a home automation system – Fibaro user reviews, blind control
Uploaded: 2011-10-18T18:27:34+02:00
Description: Hello everyone, About a year ago, my wife and I decided to build a house. We want to give it a contemporary feel, so we’ve decided it will be a smart home. We’re all familiar with the benefits of this approach. To make this happen, we need to choose the right automation system. We’ve sent...

Question

Hello everyone, About a year ago, my wife and I decided to build a house. We want to give it a contemporary feel, so we’ve decided it will be a smart home. We’re all familiar with the benefits of this approach. To make this happen, we need to choose the right automation system. We’ve sent...

Anonymous · Answer

The price is low until you add an alarm and integration with it.The same applies to integration with cameras, TVs or video doorbells. When building a house, you have to lay 230V cables anyway; a few extra ones really don’t increase the installation costs significantly.Building a house and thinking about using any kind of wireless control system in it is pure folly. Thanks to Fibaro, I learnt, amongst other things, that KNX/EIB cannot be controlled via a smartphone, even though the function of controlling via a phone has existed for almost 20 years, and we’ve been able to control things via a smartphone since… the moment smartphones appeared. I also learnt that KNX cannot integrate with other systems, even though KNX can work with most solutions available on the market, including Z-Wave, on which Fibaro is based. Ask Fibaro how to implement such a ‘pointless’ feature as shown in this video. From 3:25

fidme · Answer

Dear Sir,

I am an employee of FibarGroup – the owner of the Fibaro brand. I am not a sales representative – I work in the R&D department. I will therefore take the liberty of answering your questions.

1. I do not quite understand what you mean by ‘programmes’. As regards on/off functions, you can control devices that perform this function via on/off modules (available in two versions – 2x1.5kW and 1x3kW), you can control devices that perform such functions. For example, lighting, electric door locks, solenoid valves, fans, etc.
You can also use this device to integrate with, for example, an alarm system, etc.

Furthermore, you can use a dimmer to regulate current intensity (e.g. dimming lights, adjusting fan speed, etc.).

A roller shutter module is used to control various types of motors.

Via HomeCenter, you can assign individual modules to rooms, programme heating cycles, set scenes (conditions and events) and many other functions.
In addition to these features, HomeCenter offers hundreds of extras, such as SMS control, integration with weather services, etc. It’s impossible to list everything here.

2. Fibaro modules are currently the smallest devices of their kind in the world. They can even be integrated directly into appliances, not just into the building.
Constantly evolving software. Regular additions of new icons (for the customer’s convenience). A nationwide service with currently around 40 branches across Poland.

2. This is how you can control the blinds in Fibaro.
Regarding the text on the Portal you mention, please bear in mind that we are not its editors, merely a sponsor of the competition. Nevertheless, I took a moment to look and, to be honest, I couldn’t find any text copied from a competitor’s website… interesting.

3. The system is developed, designed and manufactured in Poland.
The exception is the HC1, which is based on na401 hardware from China. In the HC2, the board is manufactured in China, the Z-Wave controller in Poland at the Fibaro factory in Poznań, and the flash memory, rescue USB stick and memory modules at Wilk Elektronik, also in Poland.
The HC2 software (HC1 approx. 70% (or they’ll lynch me)

, interfaces and mobile apps are also developed in Poland.

As for your thread:

...it works exactly the same way at Fibaro.

Anonymous · Answer

Perhaps that’s because the word ‘terrace’ was swapped for ‘balcony’ and the order of the points was changed.

JaSSik · Answer

Hello As for the pointless feature in the video, you could really put your thinking cap on!! Fibaro has thought of the forgetful (over 50% of the population); if it weren’t for this, many firefighters would probably have their hands full... I’m a Fibaro system installer and, having compared other ‘competing’ systems of this type, I believe Fibaro is the best on the market today!!

_gobo · Answer

My dear colleague, there is surely nothing more pathetic than when an installer of one automation system tries to discredit the value of another. And all this under the guise of offering advice to someone unfamiliar with the market and seeking honest and impartial guidance.

KNX is undoubtedly a brilliant solution, with major players from the electrical and electronics industries involved in its development. There’s no question about it.
I recommend it to everyone!
However, it will not be available to the average user for a long time. This is due to both the implementation costs and the software’s lack of intuitiveness.

When presenting a specific configuration for a quote, to be fair, I would suggest first presenting the cost of that configuration at your premises based on KNX...
Of course, fairness would certainly not allow you to forget to quote the costs of purchasing and laying the twisted-pair cable (e.g. for a 200 m² house – that’s the standard) and the costs of purchasing dedicated hardware.
- For those unfamiliar with the subject, I would like to add that in the case of the KNX system, dedicated wall-mounted hardware must be used, which is many times more expensive than commonly available alternatives.
- With Fibaro, you can use any fittings to suit the user’s taste or, for example, the interior design.
It would be nice if you could suggest fittings from Gira, whose presentation you used in your post from 18 October last year...
I think you’ll also remember to mention at the end how much it costs to call out a technician when a KNX user fancies changing their pre-programmed settings... Just please don’t say that any average user of the system can make these changes.
- Your previous posts were already funny enough...

It should also be mentioned that following the softwareand hardware, which took place from January this year onwards, Fibaro has practically all the capabilities of KNX. These also include the most important feature – the ability to programme full logic functions – that is, what until now has been the undeniable strength and advantage of the KNX system.
Furthermore, integration with alarm systems and CCTV monitoring no longer poses any problems, nor does it entail the ‘significant costs’ you suggested.
Finally, I would just like to add that once your quote reaches, say, PLN 70,000, you need not continue any further...

stkop · Answer

Well then, you should be downright embarrassed by Fibaro’s behaviour... There are plenty of examples of how Fibaro tries to discredit the value of other similar products... Firstly, read the first post, point 2. Next... This information comes from Fibaro-authorised notes such as this one: Joint educational initiative by Fibaro and techManiaK.pl You personally criticised this! In this table, Fibaro functions as an ‘open’ system, and on the Fibaro forum you can read about how poorly it works Link .... as for the prices... that’s an interesting story. A certain Fidziu (a Fibaro employee [and a keen user of the FIBARO forum]) took the liberty of reviewing competitors’ offers in his construction diary. He also quoted prices, opting for HOMIQ [30,000]. Link Then, somewhere, he announced that he was switching to FIBARO because of some supposed gulf in quality... (never mind... I won’t even comment on that in the context of discrediting Homiq), but on the Fibaro forum he boasted that he has nearly 200 modules in the switchboard of an installation built for HomiQ. Link So, a simple calculation: the average price of a Fibaro module is 250 PLN net x 200 = 50,000 PLN net. That’s a solution that’s over 60 per cent more expensive than Homiq’s offering [note: 30,000], not counting the range of products outside the control unit, e.g. sensors, which are exceptionally expensive for Fibaro (usually about 10 times more expensive compared to those in wired systems). In general, the system is widely advertised as the most perfect... yet this is rather brazen considering, for example, the section FIBARO configurations and management e.g. this new thread: Link I dread to think how other automation systems operate.Fibaro’s other antics have already been discussed on elektroda.pl; you just need to look for them.

_gobo · Answer

Hello!I’m glad someone found my post interesting. However, I don’t think you’ve quite understood my point. So I’ll try to clear up these misunderstandings. I am not referring to other, unspecified posts. I am not interested in what an employee or installer from this or that company writes; I was referring to one specific post. However, I do agree with you that regardless of who speaks out and for what purpose, regardless of their intention, misleading others or using half-truths, should it occur, would be reprehensible and irresponsible. That is precisely why I replied to the previous post. As I mentioned above. I am not referring to the substantive content of other comments on the internet. That would be difficult. Personally, I did indeed criticise it, but the lack of objectivity in this one specific post. However, I do agree, while we’re on the subject, that certain comments, sometimes exaggerated at the time, can only harm a company and bring no benefit. We can discuss these or other advertising materials. Whether it’s Fibaro or Homiq, will this affect the practical value of these systems? I don’t think so. In reality, the system should, and certainly can, defend itself. The example you gave shows just how great the gaps in basic knowledge are, unfortunately, among people who should be shaping the product’s image and relations with the market… Well, here, you’ve gone a bit off track In the post you linked to, there’s no mention of how poorly the system integrates, only that the author of that thread didn’t understand certain issues. I suspect the same as you do. Because I certainly wouldn’t want to accuse you of bad faith! The reply to that post is clear and settles the matter: „THIS IS NOT A LIST OF SUPPORTED DEVICES! These are entries in a table for the purpose of displaying certain advanced options on devices we have selected, so that the user does not have to configure them via parameters; it is also used for several other purposes and has nothing to do with supported devices. The list of supported devices is much longer! For example: Duwi, Merten, Aeon, Everspirng switches, and hundreds of similar devices are supported by HC2. Device support depends on the class used by the device in question.” (original spelling retained; I haven’t corrected errors resulting from the lack of Polish diacritical marks – probably typed on some kind of mobile device). By the way, just off the record, I wish the creators of other systems that their admins, on publicly accessible forums concerning their solutions, would allow everything without censorship and not ‘cut out’ all the inconvenient posts... A question for everyone: Has anyone seen such forums for systems other than KNX and Fibaro? If so, can they be found quickly and intuitively? You’ll find the answer easily by entering the relevant query into a search engine, e.g.. Fibaro Forum, or Homiq Forum… You know... That post you linked to is from the muratordom website and was published on 9 February 2010… Back then, nobody had even heard of the Fibaro system… It wasn’t created until a year later, so the criticism is just as valid as the previous ones...This is, unfortunately, what I was calling for in my previous post – to be fair in one’s assessments. Meanwhile, by accusing me of something I hadn’t even mentioned – hopefully unintentionally – you have joined the ranks of those making completely dishonest statements. In this, his own post, he is actually praising the Homiq and F&Home systems. He also does not specify which example installation he submitted for a quote (there is no mention of 200 connections; this only appears in a post two years later on a different forum) - we assume that, despite the passage of two years, the same person is still using this username… As I mentioned, in 2010 he couldn’t have been discrediting Homiq. The Fibaro system didn’t exist yet, and besides, we assume that after two years, it’s still the same person... As for that comment on the Fibaro forum, though, what can I say? I don’t subscribe to the ‘Kale philosophy’. I do not consider it acceptable to discredit other systems in this way. They defend themselves or discredit themselves perfectly well on their own. If you’re discussing the shortcomings of other systems, you need to give specific examples and always in relation to your own solutions. However, you also need to be very careful here so that no one thinks you’re using arguments taken out of context. Still, I don’t understand why you’re demanding that I explain myself regarding other people’s comments. You could certainly find similar, not entirely honest comments about other systems among Homiq installers… It just wouldn’t occur to me to look for them and make you explain them. Moving on, Fibaro isn’t a system that we’re supposed to cram into distribution boards!! The fact that someone did that? Well, that’s their problem. The system works brilliantly in this location! You don’t need to make space for it! We place the control elements in junction boxes, and the control unit is an elegant aluminium module that we wouldn’t be ashamed to display, for example, as another component of the AV system in the living room. There’s no need to force it into distribution boards! It’s simply absurd! Here you’ve ‘gone off on a tangent’ again. Just don’t tell me, please, that you’re quoting someone else and that’s why you’ve got those 200 points.I hope we’ve clarified our assessment of this forum user, as well as the issue of using Statements taken out of context…?Now to the point: I’d like to hear from installation companies that have installed 200-point systems in detached houses!!! But not just saying, for example: “I installed a 250-point system”, but with a specific example of the installation! I’d love to see it. The largest one I know of has over 80 points and controls practically everything. Apart from flushing the toilets So I suggest being a bit more cautious about the number of points. Here I can refer to my previous post – please first request a quote for other systems, and then ask for one for the one being criticised. Of course, for the full installation, not just the cost of the control components... The Fibaro employee you mention (in February 2010, as I’ve already mentioned, it couldn’t have been him) doesn’t state whether the project for which he requested a quote included 200 points. He only mentions this on another forum in a post from May 2012...Another issue is the control modules being ten times more expensive? I appeal once again – less emotion and more substance! It is as you say – generally speaking, one can assume that the gross prices of control components are around 250 PLN gross, but these are prices without discounts!! That’s the first point, and secondly, how can you say that wired detectors cost around 25 (twenty-five) PLN gross, i.e. 10 times less?? Any examples? A branded Danfoss electronic thermostat, in the Fibaro price list, without discounts, is 182 PLN gross. Let that be the whole of my comment regarding price differences. When pricing wired detectors, just don’t forget to add the cost of the cable and its installation to all the points. I wonder what that price difference will look like then... Here’s a little aside for anyone unfamiliar with the market who’s looking for something suitable: Type the following into any search engine: “Fibaro price list” and “Homiq price list”. You’ll find the current prices for the former’s products right at the top of the search results. No quotes, just a straightforward price list for everyone... I won’t continue this thread any further, so as not to be accused of bias. Everyone can check for themselves and draw their own conclusions... Do you really think that certain, perhaps unfortunate, statements can undermine the value of the system? After all, every manufacturer, from mineral water to cars, uses all sorts of words with „the best„, which precede adjectives describing just how great their product is…. That’s all there is to it. Nothing more. I think I’ve already explained that above? So please don’t lump me in with the rest. As I’ve also mentioned – I wish manufacturers of other systems would show such openness on the forums. Moreover, you surely know perfectly well that the ‘ingenious Dobromils” users and some installers can be. Citing random posts about problems as examples… Well, you can, but I assure you that users and companies operating on KNX or F&Home have similar issues. Does that mean they’re bad systems? No! Like any system, they have their pros and cons. They have their own ‘tinkering’ users and their unskilled installers…To sum up my long post. I don’t judge other systems one-sidedly. Each has its pros and cons. Hence, for example, my great respect for KNX, which I have known from a practical perspective for many years. However, no average Joe investing 500–600 thousand in a house would buy it from me. Every solution should stand on its own merits. However, if we are to question the value of a particular solution, let us provide a precise comparison with the same functionalities or aspects in the solution we are promoting! That’s all there is to it.Best regards to everyone, and I hope you’ll forgive me for this rather long post. I just wanted to explain all the issues as clearly as possible.

stkop · Answer

Well, quite the opposite – I referred to just a few examples intended to explain, amongst other things, why Fibaro actually provokes attitudes such as yours. I’ll try to refrain from further references to Fibaro’s marketing material (that would take up too much of my time) and will focus solely on pointing out certain specifics and half-truths that you yourself have written... Well then, listen to yourself... The vast majority of automation systems allow for this... KNX too... things get complicated when someone wants more integrated programmable buttons, e.g. with a thermostat... but Fibaro doesn’t offer such options, so there’s no problem . Apart from the artificial advantage that white fittings can be any type, Fibaro has a problem with externally mounted reed switches, thermostats and other accessories. This is a serious issue because the ones listed in the Fibaro price list are made of white plastic and have the recesses and shapes typical of such devices, which make them quite difficult to keep clean. The EVT-001 thermostat looks downright pitiful (like a timer from Lidl). Is it also tailored to the user’s taste? You must be joking? You might say that to a layman who just wants to switch on the lights and close the blinds remotely. But when it comes to REAL integration with an alarm system (don’t even mention Pimpus, everyone knows how to do it properly except Fibaro), an air conditioner, a heat pump, etc., will you still say that the capabilities are practically the same? (I can’t really picture these Z-Wave-enabled devices on the Polish market) The gap between FIBARO and KNX will grow exponentially if you try to compare these systems in terms of building automation [rather than home automation]. Generally speaking, comparing KNX and Fibaro is nonsense... because Fibaro is just one of many manufacturers of the Z-Wave standard. So if you’re going to compare Fibaro, it should be on a product-for-product basis with another Z-Wave manufacturer. And on a general level, it is KNX that should be compared with Z-Wave! I would just add that I personally would not recommend KNX for an ordinary home... unless we’re talking about a villa over 1000m². Well, that’s just brilliant!! So you’re admitting yourself that until 2012 this ‘most perfect’ system was, at best, a remote control system, probably with a scheduling function and a group switch (‘scenes’). It seems Fibaro has perfected these ‘full’ automation features to such an extent that the entire industry is bowing down to them and wondering what on earth it has been doing for the last 10 years. Please explain what you mean by “full logic”? In any case, congratulations. Once this system is expanded to support analogue inputs/outputs or RGB LED control, then I’ll say that Fibaro is keeping pace. They are, but terribly boring. As for deleting posts, be careful, because someone might think that only Fibaro doesn’t delete them, and that wouldn’t be fair. I wasn’t accusing you of anything there. Now I am accusing you. I agree to these terms and would very much ask you to continue in this vein. Firstly, you’re confusing net and gross prices. The ALCK-001 reed switch detector costs 279 net/343 gross. A standard window reed switch can be bought for between 7–8 and 15 PLN gross. This is an extreme case, but it illustrates my point, especially as this is the most important type of sensor when it comes to, for example, a heat energy saving system (apart from temperature sensors), and alarms, of course. On average, a smart home with a floor area of 150m²–200m² uses around 20 of these sensors. Fibaro (external reed switches – attached to the window/door frame): 20 x 343 = 6,860 grossSatel (alarm, concealed reed switches): 20 x [10 PLN (reed switch) + 30 PLN (1 Satel input)] = 800 PLN gross (leaving only 6,060 PLN gross for cable [60 PLN per 100m] and labour. Here I should mention that Fibaro did not want to / could not / was unable to (delete as appropriate) implement a protocol connection that would read all the alarm sensor statuses. They preferred to offer a toy... Another automation system: 20 x [10 PLN (reed switch) + 100 (system input)] = 2,200 gross. To a lesser extent, this applies to other types of sensors. Satel motion detectors cost around 40 zł gross, whilst in Fibaro they cost 281 zł gross. But what is far more significant is that the Fibaro price list features only one type of motion detector... and yet this is a component that is selected based on its specifications. It’s also worth mentioning the need to replace the batteries in wireless sensors. I don’t know how long a sensor like the one from Fibaro can last on a single set of batteries... but I assume that with 40–50 such sensors, on average, you’ll need to climb a ladder 1–2 times a month to replace those batteries (assuming a two-year battery life). So that’s another household chore. As for the outputs, yes, the cost is similar to that of other systems. It ranges between 100 and 300 PLN gross per unit, depending on quality, type, power, etc... With Fibaro, the benefit lies in the lack of major labour required in the existing installation... actually the only, but key, advantage of a wireless system. However, the claim that it is unimaginably expensive to run everything back to the distribution board often stems from factual errors: for example, switches do not require power cables but only signal cables [60 PLN gross/100m], it makes no sense to centralise the installation in a very large house (sub-control units are installed for automation), not every electrical socket is connected separately to the distribution board, 12 wires are sufficient to control a run of 5 roller shutters separately, not 20. To control a solenoid valve manifold, all you need is a bus and a single power cable. Etc., etc. But the fact is, you have to pay for it. And what conclusions are we supposed to draw? That you have to send an email to some of them asking for a price list? That this is a way for these companies to establish contact with the customer – in order to convince them of their own ID solution and sometimes to protect themselves from over-eager salespeople from more aggressively operating companies? Price lists are published by F&Home, SAB System and Domito. Fibaro does not publish a price list on its website. I agree 99%. Hopefully the link will work. We’ll see if it’s the hardware or the ‘human factor’. I agree 100%. In my reply, I referred to Fibaro’s 2012 price list and the napad.pl shop. I generally compared Fibaro with Polish-made bus systems. Full list here .Best regards to you too.

_gobo · Answer

Dear stkop,Hello again.I see that installers of other systems have a lot of free time, since they can devote so much of it to Fibaro rather than working on their own system… I’m afraid I don’t have that ‘luxury’, and therefore the time to ‘fight windmills’. Therefore, with this post, I am ending this pointless discussion. All the more so as I see no reason (as explained in more detail below) to endlessly correct the untruths you write, let alone teach you how to read and understand what others say. What’s the point of me explaining yet again how far you are from the truth? After all, in a moment, naturally ignoring any issues that are inconvenient for you, you’ll come up with something new. Something that will, however, have just as much to do with the truth as the claim that this coming Sunday we’ll be winning the championship title at UEFA EURO 2012. Besides, I’ve noticed that this admirable work you’re doing, attacking Fibaro and making up tall tales about it, is actually beneficial to me – and I think to others too! - Quite simply, after reading all this, a potential customer does not decide against buying the system! Their attitude changes only insofar as they become more wary and, armed with a full list of doubts (often consisting of printouts from forums such as this one), they come to the meeting at the show home. As a result, they are better prepared for the meeting and better able to identify their needs and expectations. However, by testing the fully functional system in the show home, they can see for themselves how much all your complaints are worth. So I can only hope that you continue to devote so much time and energy to this negative PR. It only surprises me insofar as it would seem more sensible to make the effort and create forums and show homes, like Fibaro has, for your own systems. Surely that would be to their advantage? …Or perhaps not…? But that’s a completely different story. As I’ve already mentioned in previous posts, the system should be able to stand on its own two feet. However, before making such a serious decision as purchasing it, the customer should have the opportunity to test it for themselves. They cannot rely solely on the installer’s stories and buy a ‘pig in a poke’8221;, only to find out – often painfully – what they’ve actually received after installation… With that, best regards and please send more P.S. 1 If anyone doesn’t like the design of the sample products in the Fibaro catalogue and associates it with Lidl, I suggest system components from other manufacturers’ catalogues. There are already over 250 of them (as you rightly pointed out, this is a similarity with KNX), and you can find them here . Temperature control? But of course, here ! Aren’t they lovely? And what a range of brands! And the „pimpuś” that you so fondly mention and which causes you so much understandable anxiety? Well, it allows you to integrate devices that are completely incompatible with Z-Wave, thereby expanding their range many times over. It was a labour of love, a process you can follow very openly on the Fibaro forum. But now it’s here. I suppose it’s only you who are still feeling the pain, though? We invite you to visit Fibaro forum , where you can find honest reviews of the system’s strengths and weaknesses, as well as the websites of the distributors Fibaro , where you can book a visit to the show home - Best regards once again to everyone, and I leave those zealous installers of other systems to their own devices

fidme · Answer

I popped onto Elektroda for a moment to check something, I’m reading this thread and I can’t help but chime in a bit:)

Mate – you’re the absolute pinnacle of the grotesque I’ve ever seen – respect!
But apparently, true kitsch is art.

Your omnipresence on almost every forum I visit is mind-boggling:)

Apologies for this prologue, but I can’t help but marvel at how you manage to find the time to write all this – some of your posts from various forums overlap almost the entire day:)

Now, to the point. Unfortunately, I won’t be able to comment on every line as I don’t have that much time.

Nor do I wish to discuss the superiority of KNX over Z-Wave <- the protocol on which Fibaro works. After all, KNX brings together far more manufacturers, and that in itself settles the matter.

The issue to address is the price, because due to dendrytus’s manipulations, many people might actually be misled into thinking that such an installation will be cheaper than Fibaro.

1. Integration with Satel (i.e., as Dendrytus mentions, reed switches for 5 PLN and detectors for 30 PLN) (contrary to what you claim about Fibaro’s policy) is already available, using the Satel protocol – not just via a 5 PLN cable to the RS, but also via Ethernet.
Admittedly, it’s still in beta at the moment (likely available to end users in a week or two), but beta testers have been playing with it for 9 weeks!

2. Scenes are incredibly easy to build (using coloured blocks). LUA programming is available for advanced users who want to write their own special programmes for very complex dependencies.
Scene building here: starts at 7:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UXKrjTGHig
For those unfamiliar with it, I suggest watching the whole video – I don’t think the configuration interface will seem overly difficult to anyone.

3. The guy who posted to you earlier mentioned the Danfoss thermostat – here’s the link: http://skocz.waw.pl/userfiles/skoczwawpl/image/danfoss_living_connect.jpg
And you’re showing Hortsman – please stop this manipulation.

I speak to hundreds of engineers every month and they all know this thread on Elektroda and regretfully admit that it’s pure fantasy. What you’re writing only impresses young, clueless students and kids who don’t yet have any frame of reference.
Fibaro is being installed by a huge number of KNX installers, and they’re absolutely delighted to be able to offer it to customers; everyone makes counter-offers for KNX, Modbus (soon to be supported by Fibaro too), LCN, etc., but the customer chooses Fibaro anyway!
I wonder why that is? Can you answer that question for me?

Of course, there will always be opponents, dissatisfied people, those looking for faults in everything, or people like you who will try at all costs to convince others that there is only one right choice.
But let’s hold off on that for now.

Every system has its pros and cons – let the customer decide.
You’re giving abstract examples; I don’t want to list them all now, but for instance: a ‘golden key’ with such a vast array of functions (incidentally, our actuators have almost all the same options –> retrieving information from the key) that the only thing missing is for it to serve coffee – but those who want it know and are familiar with the capabilities of KNX, LCN, and dozens of other systems; the average person couldn’t care less about such details.
For them, what matters is that when they click a button, an action should occur; if they hold it down, it might trigger a different action, and so on. Fibaro is designed precisely for this kind of customerIf someone wants a fold-away bed that slides into the floor, or an automatic dispenser for bath products that adjusts to the weather, the control system itself will be of marginal importance to them, as it accounts for only a fraction of the total cost of the entire environment.
In such a situation, they won’t even give a thought to which solution to choose; what matters to them will be the design and those little touches sold as individual items (e.g. a Bathomatic for £8,000). As for the system, the decision will be made for him by the interior designer or their equivalent responsible for the bathroom and bedrooms, who will liaise with a trusted KNX installer, and they will tailor a customised solution for him, and the matter is settled.

If you want to sell KNX to a Fibaro customer – please do so, but let them make the right decision and show them both systems.
Fibaro has around 100 outlets in Poland where you can check and test the system before buying; most of these outlets have a list of installers, ranging from electricians to specialist automation engineers, and the customer can ring them up and speak to any of them if they wish.
How many such showrooms are there for KNX?
We both know that KNX has a different distribution model – through installers – each of whom says something different and spins a tale to the customer they’ve caught – and as is unfortunately often the case in Poland, every customer gets a different version:(

If you’re such a big shot, invite me to your showroom; I’d be happy to meet in person. Likewise, I invite you to mine; we’ll take a tour of our R&D, I’ll show you around the production facilities, and we’ll have a chat.
Sound good?

You’ll see the dismantled KNX modules – I’ll give you their actual value (TKW by component), we’ll compare the level of complexity and you can judge for yourself. I realise you wouldn’t be willing to bear the cost of destroying KNX modules – costing several hundred euros each – just to desolder the AVR chip to see what’s written on the underside. But we have all this here, and I’d like to show it to you.
I also don’t want us to get into a debate about why Fibaro won’t start producing devices for KNX (the production technology is identical, after all, and the protocol is even easier to implement), so I’ll answer straight away – that’s not the FibarGroup’s target market.

Fibaro is available in 40 European countries and also sells to India, Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, etc. We’re churning out hundreds of thousands of units – how are we supposed to compare ourselves to Gira?!?
Poland generates only a few per cent of turnover with one of the cheapest automation systems, so tell me how many customers will buy a product priced like GIRA?
Would it make sense to set up a distribution network for them like the one Fibaro currently has?

Fibaro entered the market with a bang (please stop nitpicking over words – when you watch a toothpaste advert, you don’t get upset that the manufacturer says it’s the best) – that was the plan devised by the marketing team – it was meant to grab people’s attention. The goal has been achieved; now comes the next phase: raising user awareness, listening to the market and meeting needs – implementation is underway.
The product is brilliant, compact, easy to assemble and meets the expectations of 95% of buyers; we’ll have to work hard for the remaining 5%

Take a look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K35uFXoa5c0
and please don’t nitpick about the ‘Miele’ cooker being controlled by a switched-on/off button (incidentally, many customers do this by connecting it to a button) or that the flower is standing crooked, because this is the first demonstration of its capabilities, which, based on retail prices, comes to around 8–10 thousand zlotys for the customer. (excluding, of course, household appliances, windows, satellite systems, etc.).

It demonstrates the basic functions:

- voice control (also available in Polish)
- lighting
- blinds
- windows
- temperature
- video surveillance
- smart locks
- alarm
- scenes triggered by flashing your car’s lights
- highly accurate GPS tracking of family members (via mobile phone, not the car’s GPS)
- GPS location integrated with scenes (a change in location triggers various sequences of events – the system knows where you are, whether you are approaching a selected area, moving away from it, or have already arrived there)
- remote access

Isn’t the value for money good? And most importantly – it’s a Polish system with a large distribution network across the country.

P.S.
I was writing on my phone, so please excuse any mistakes; I tried to correct them as I went along.

Darserw · Answer

I’ve been installing these in London for two years now; if you do it properly, there are no problems. As a guide, the switchable power is 1.5 kW, 3 kW, and cooling. The manufacturer specifies installation in a junction box without any modifications; apart from the RGBW module, everything else is powered from the 230V mains, which causes power losses and failures. I try to ensure proper ventilation; I replace the junction boxes and cut into the wall (if there’s no plasterboard) to improve heat exchange. Creating scenes is a different story altogether – don’t be afraid of new technologies

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