Do electronic thermostatic heads help to save on heating costs in a block of flats?

Question

Hello, Recently, one of the offers for thermostatic heads – which replace the traditional knobs on radiators – caught my eye. Here’s an example – see the link below: 3.1.18. It is forbidden to post information from sources that expire after a certain period of time (posting links to short-lived...

stanislaw1954 · Answer

Some people who live in blocks of flats do just that, especially if their flat is in the middle of the block. They turn off all their radiators. They’re living at the expense of others.

rsobczuk · Answer

I’m not actually talking about living at the expense of one’s neighbours. I’m asking about the actual benefits to be gained from this, and we can do without answers along the lines of ‘I don’t know much about it, so I’ll have my say’.
R

Anonymous · Answer

These thermostatic heads deliver savings depending on how the room is used. The greatest savings will be in offices, government offices and schools, as heating is required for 5 days, 8–10 hours a day. During these hours, the temperature can be set to 22°C; at other times, it can be set to 15°C.
The situation is worse for flats. For single-person households, the typical cycle is 5 days at 10 hours at 15°C and 14 hours at 22°C. Plus 2 days, 24 hours at 22°C.

For larger families, the situation is even worse, and it’s worst of all when one person stays at home 24 hours a day.

A device like this, installed in a flat, improves comfort. For example, in the bathroom, it will raise the temperature to 24°C in the evening and lower it to 20°C during the day. It will also lower the temperature whilst we sleep to a level we prefer. This will, of course, certainly result in savings of a few per cent.

In the case of smart homes, the actual savings are 5–8 per cent, and these result from the ability to lower room temperatures at every opportunity, rather than just according to a schedule.

In the case of smart buildings – such as offices, government offices and schools – savings can reach as high as 30–40 per cent.

To sum up, in offices and government buildings we see savings, whilst at home we enjoy greater comfort with a little bit of savings.

rsobczuk · Answer

OK. That’s exactly what I had in mind. I’d mostly use something like this in the bathroom, where I’d set the radiator to heat in the evening and in the morning (switched off during the day and at night), and in the bedroom (in the morning), switched off during the day and at night (I sleep with the window slightly open practically all the time). The other rooms are less important – but, for example, in the living room you could set the heating for the morning and switch it off for the rest of the day. As for the child’s room, I’d set it to a constant temperature. Do you think a valve costing 60 zł would meet my expectations? There are also ones for 120 zł, but what’s the point of buying one that’s twice as expensive?

Cheers,
Rafał

Anonymous · Answer

You need to weigh up the options.The more expensive one might have better algorithms than the simpler one.Then there’s durability. There’s a little motor inside, and the Chinese use strange lubricants that stop working after a short while and end up acting more like glue. You can always buy a cheaper one, tweak it and see if it’s the right one. If it works, you can buy a more expensive one in 2–3 years’ time.

didotom · Answer

Having such a device installed in your home improves your comfort. For example, in the bathroom, it will raise the temperature to 24°C in the evening and lower it to 20°C during the day. It will also lower the temperature whilst we sleep to a level we prefer. This will, of course, certainly result in savings of a few per cent.

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It will lower the temperature to 20 degrees within 3 days if it’s -10 to -15 outside

Unless, of course, you live in an uninsulated building or a timber-framed one
In new-build properties, constructed properly (which is tricky when it comes to tradespeople), it won’t work, as the walls retain heat well,
I’ve tested this the hard way – I’ve fitted HR20 throughout my whole house. I’ve also got some in another place, where the building isn’t very well insulated, and it works better there.

Best regards

Anonymous · Answer

Well, you completely fail to understand what saving on heating is all about. Setting it to 20°C doesn’t mean the temperature has to drop to that level; it just means that until it reaches 20°C, it simply shouldn’t heat that particular room. It doesn’t really matter whether we cool the room down to 20°C in 3 days or in a dozen or so hours. You’ve got some sort of thermostats, and they heat the room at 1 am, 3 am, 4.30 am and 11 am, 2 pm whilst you’re at work. They’re trying to maintain the set temperature. The fact that you’ve been testing it is irrelevant. I’m testing it at my place too, only I’ve set it up the way it should be. It works for me. The whole system is controlled by a Gira Homeserver3 and my installations are on KNX. I used to have Salus Controls units, and that worked too.But I’m nowhere near as good as solutions based on Integra. By some strange miracle, all the experts and engineers claim that active control delivers savings, yet you, armed with a calculator and your ignorance based on urban myths, claim otherwise. But that’s your problem.

didotom · Answer

Well, you completely fail to understand what saving on heating is all about. Setting it to 20°C doesn’t mean the temperature has to drop to that level; it just means that until it reaches 20°C, it simply won’t heat that particular room. It doesn’t really matter whether we cool the room down to 20°C in 3 days or in a dozen or so hours. You’ve got some sort of thermostats, and they heat the room at 1 am, 3 am, 4.30 am and 11 am, 2 pm whilst you’re at work. They’re trying to maintain the set temperature. The fact that you’ve been testing it is irrelevant. I’m testing it at my place too, only I’ve set it up the way it should be. It works for me. The whole system is controlled by a Gira Homeserver3 and my installations are on KNX. I used to have Salus Controls units, and that worked too.But I’m nowhere near as good as solutions based on Integra. By some strange miracle, all the specialists and engineers claim that active control delivers savings, whilst you, armed with a calculator and your ignorance based on urban myths, claim otherwise. But that’s your problem. Based on calculations and reality, not manufacturers’ marketingIt’s simple: I have a modern system, with underfloor heating and radiators throughout, (that’s just how I wanted it). The thermal transmittance of my walls is 0.15 m²K/W; most importantly, the gable walls are insulated – something missing from 90 per cent of Polish buildings due to the ignorance of tradespeople – and the wall plates are properly insulated, 35 cm of wool, polystyrene on frames and foam. For the time being, I’m heating with a boiler fitted with a feeder; my consumption is below (this is what my calculations on the energy performance certificate showed) 16,000 kWh per year; the cost of heating for the season is around 1,200 zł, with fine coal costing around 420 zł, taking into account the boiler’s efficiency and assuming that 1 kg of coal yields 4.5 kWh. How much do you think I could save in zlotys per year with this automated system?(I didn’t specify the square metres – I have 180 + 90; the cellar is also heated) In my opinion, if the house is built properly, well insulated and isn’t a timber-frame house, then these are simply unnecessary gadgets when it comes to heating these days It’s simple: the more energy you need, the greater the saving will be. Perhaps your house is poorly insulated, since the temperature drops by 4 degrees in just a few hours; in that case, it might actually offer some benefits, but that’s not the right approach – it’s better to insulate the house properly.

Anonymous · Answer

It’s astonishing how people argue with the figures, basing their arguments solely on the belief that ‘this can’t be right’. idea especially when the author Perhaps it would actually be simpler to insulate the building. If we were to run the calculations didotom , it would probably show that it’s not worth it. Conspiracy theories aren’t the topic for this forum; there are better ones, and I’d advise you to take them there. PS.I think I mentioned something about your lack of knowledge and the calculator.Just because you can’t do something properly doesn’t mean it doesn’t work, and that everyone for whom it does work is a conspiracy theorist or a fraudster. PS2You haven’t the faintest idea what your wall U-value is. You don’t know because you haven’t taken any measurements, and you’re basing your calculations on marketing data from people involved in the conspiracy. In theory, theory should match practice. We know from experience that this isn’t the case.

didotom · Answer

Anyone handing over a building must have measurements (though most of it is just hot air on paper), but you can work out the figures yourself. The most straightforward way to get realistic figures is to track energy consumption over a few seasons, whilst the material coefficients are provided by the manufacturer. This does not alter the fact that precision in workmanship and ensuring there are no thermal bridges are crucial in construction. You’re getting confused, because you recently wrote about engineers who calculate all this, , and now you’re talking about marketing. This discussion is going nowhere; the only sad thing is that when you’ve run out of arguments, you start insulting people on this forum.Best regards

kasprzyk · Answer

Hello I must admit that the result is quite impressive given the floor area; we won’t argue over whether the temperature in the house was 19 or 23 degrees, whether it was maintained steadily or in varying cycles – no one can confirm that now, and my friend probably didn’t take daily measurements himself – and let’s be honest, with a continuous-burning boiler, that’s quite a difficult task. By the way, a question – how did you sort out the issue of the minimum return temperature on the boiler? I cannot agree with this statement; automated heating systems offer both comfort benefits (lowering the temperature at night, raising it in bathrooms, and lowering it in other less demanding rooms) and financial benefits. Based on various calculations for different heat sources – whether district heating, gas, oil or a heat pump – it can be assumed that lowering the temperature by 1 degree results in savings of around 5–8 per cent per year. Of course, everything depends on individual circumstances – the volume of the building, the heat source, the number of occupants, the time spent in the rooms, the outside temperature, etc. – but we always benefit from such a solution to a greater or lesser extent. Kind regards

didotom · Answer

Upstairs the temperature is 21.5, on the ground floor 22–23 degrees; in the garage it’s 18 degrees, and in the other rooms 21 degrees. Those with better results aren’t particularly impressive – have a read of the news on pl.misc.budowanie. As I mentioned, you just need to keep a close eye on the house during construction. I try to keep the return temperature at 55–60 degrees (ideally using a 4D valve) to ensure the system’s longevity; I initially had the temperature set to hourly control, but the savings were virtually imperceptible; I now have it set to a constant temperature as described above. There’s no doubt about the benefits, but for an average family of a few people in a well-insulated house, where someone is usually at home most of the time, the savings are so small that the cost of the automation system won’t pay for itself for several years. Why do you say it’s difficult to maintain a constant temperature on the boiler?I have a wood-fired boiler with a drawer-type (piston) feeder; I don’t switch it off, I fill it to the brim once every 10 days (at current temperatures), I empty the ash about once every 10 days, and I keep the boiler temperature at around 70 degrees; I have constant temperatures throughout the house on different levels all season long.

kasprzyk · Answer

As I wrote above, it’s all a matter of individual circumstances. To give my own example – as I’ve always had high heating bills, I decided to tackle the issue with my family – in just one room, my consumption dropped from 2,160 units in the 2010–2011 season to 688 in the 2011–2012 season – in monetary terms, that’s a saving of 597 zł – why? because, up until then, nobody had paid any attention to the thermostat on the radiator; it was either turned down to the minimum because it was too hot, or when it got chilly, someone would turn it up to the maximum, and the knob would stay like that for a long time. That’s exactly what automation is all about – it ‘corrects’ our mistakes, fills in the gaps in our memory and compensates for our laziness And how does the underfloor heating control system perform? 70 degrees is quite high for this type of system – how do you limit the temperature?Regards

didotom · Answer

And how does the underfloor heating control work? 70 degrees is quite high for this type of system – how do you limit the temperature?Regards You’re right, it depends on individual needs.I have separate distribution units with pumps on the ground floor and first floor; both fitted with mixing valves and a thermostat, plus individual control for each circuit via rotameters showing water flow and inlet temperature; the water entering my underfloor heating is a maximum of 25–45 degrees – you can’t even set it any higher. Something like this: also tested a solution with solenoid valves controlled directly from an Auraton temperature controller located in each room, but due to the underfloor heating’s very high thermal inertia, this doesn’t work very well – it does work, but there’s a significant delay, and once the floor has cooled down and all the circuits switch on simultaneously, the boiler requires a huge amount of power, it may even shut down if it is set to the minimum fuel supply.In other words, once a certain temperature was reached, the valve would shut off the circuit for that particular room. This solution works better with radiators, which, with a temperature of around 70 degrees in the radiators, will simply heat the room quickly and shut off the water supply. Several installers warned me about this before I bought it, and they were right After three heating seasons of fine-tuning, I’ve managed to reduce my consumption, so that I now use around 3 tonnes of fuel, which works out at about 14,000 kWh per season including hot water, and it’s hard to squeeze much more out of it, even with more advanced automation, nor would installing a heat pump – which I intend to fit in my later years – be any more economical, assuming I pay 500 zł for 1T of fuel, but if I were to buy coal at 900 zł, as some people do, heating with a heat pump using a suitably large buffer tank – heating around 75% during off-peak hours – would work out cheaper. The cost of a heat pump is the same as that of a boiler; you can buy one for under 10k, plus a few additional pumps, an external collector or boreholes.

kasprzyk · Answer

After all, it’s also an automated system That is precisely why I mentioned that many factors influence the choice of control system; the situation is completely different for an oil-fired boiler, such as the one you’re referring to, compared to, say, a heat pump. In two instances, we used solenoid valves for individual circuits in the manifolds instead of a mixing valve – this works very well. As for the costs, given that an IB control unit and temperature sensors are already installed in the system switches, the entire automation system involves an additional cost for the solenoid valves and the control module (around 1,200 zł – I don’t know the exact price at the moment). So it’s not a drastic cost in the context of the entire investment. Admittedly, I’d personally go for a brine heat pump, but as we know, the costs of drilling boreholes are considerable – though that’s a different topic for discussion; let’s not go off-topic in this thread.Regards

Do electronic thermostatic heads help to save on heating costs in a block of flats?

Can electronic thermostatic radiator heads reduce heating costs in a flat with radiator heat meters, or do they mainly improve comfort?

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