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Which electronic relays for TS35 rail for 230V light control?

Szymon Tarnowski 6054 20
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What ready-made, very slim TS35-rail relay modules can I use for quiet 230 V lighting control?

Use a slim DIN-rail SSR module rather than a conventional relay if you want quiet 230 V lighting control; forum users point to 5 A thick-film SSRs and ready-made modules such as the QLT Power SSR-1028ZD3 or the Elco SSR20-524C with a base [#12511162][#12731579] These are described as ready-made solutions for automation rails, which fits your requirement not to build a triac/optotriac module yourself [#12731579] If you can accept a mechanical relay, the Relpol RM85 inrush version was reported as fairly quiet, and a 24 V inrush unit was not noticeably louder than a regular RM85 even at close distance [#12506387][#12796536] Another note says some Relpol relays can be made quieter by lowering coil voltage, though that may require a separate lower-voltage supply or a series resistor [#12506387][#12506461] Narrow interface relays were also mentioned, but their load capacity was only around 1–2 A, so for your 6–8 A target the SSR route looks like the better fit [#12506344][#12511162]
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  • #1 12505964
    Szymon Tarnowski
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    Most systems for control, be it a PLC or some kind of BMS use relays on the output. I find this quite noisy, even when the switchgear where the equipment sits is behind a wall you can hear the relays. On the controller side of things, it's simple to "pull out" the relays and control the outputs with transistors (or buy a PLC with transistor outputs), the problem is what hardware to use for 230V switching. The assumption is a lamp (wall lamp) is about 60W, let's say a large chandelier about 400W which would give some less than 2A maximum current.
    The question is what kind of READY electronic relay elements to use which can be mounted in the switchgear on TS35 rails. They definitely need to be less than 1 module wide and at the same time not get too hot. sSD "cubes" about the size of a cigarette box are out right away. They are too large, require heat sinks or rather cumbersome mounting and have switching currents of 20-50A (much too large for this application). I don't want to play with building "modules" with a triac and optotriac inside, I would like something ready-made.
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    #2 12506219
    stkop
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    Elbok makes such modules ... Except that I only see 3A/39V versions in the catalogue on www.
    http://www.elbok.com.pl/index2.php?strona=listwy_przek&hl=2
    Maybe they will insert a suitable transistor.

    I also don't know how such a solid state output would work in a home environment.... however, it's easier to kill silicon than relay contacts.

    Relays are louder and quieter....
  • #3 12506344
    Szymon Tarnowski
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    Thank you for the suggestion, however these relay strips are similar in size to relays, width roughly 1 module/1 relay. This will take up quite a lot of space in a switchboard. I have found that Relpol (and other manufacturers) produce so-called "interface" relays, in very slim enclosures and on slim TS35 rail mounts. Which electronic relays for TS35 rail for 230V light control?
    Unfortunately their load capacity at 230V is of the order of 1-2A, only achievable with a distance of a few cm between relays.

    And can anyone suggest some "quiet" relays, with a load capacity in the order of 6-8A at 230Vac?
  • #4 12506379
    Nereida4
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    After all, the one in the photo has a maximum current of 6 A at 230 VAC .
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    #5 12506387
    stkop
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    These are fairly quiet. Get one and check it out.
    http://www.relpol.pl/pl/Oferta/Produkty/Przek...agnetyczne-miniaturowe/Przekaznik-RM85-inrush

    There's also the fact that some Relpol relays [I don't know about other manufacturers] operate stably over a fairly wide range of coil control voltage. Lowering this voltage translates into quieter operation.

    Ps. These narrow relays with energy-saving bulbs can die quickly.... but this probably also depends on the brand of bulbs.
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  • #6 12506415
    Szymon Tarnowski
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    Nereida4 wrote:
    After all, the one in the photo has a maximum current of 6 A at 230 VAC .
    This is the load capacity of the "base".

    stkop wrote:
    There is also such a trick that some Relpol relays [I don't know about other manufacturers] work stably within a rather wide range of coil control voltage. Lowering this voltage translates into quieter operation.
    Apparently so, but I would have to mount some additional power source in the switchgear, e.g. 18V in addition to the standard 24V.

    I'll check out those RM85s, although I'm under the impression I've got them installed in one switchboard.
  • #7 12506461
    stkop
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    Szymon Tarnowski wrote:

    stkop wrote:
    There is also the fact that some Relpol relays [I don't know about other manufacturers] operate stably over a fairly wide range of coil control voltage. Lowering this voltage translates into quieter operation.
    Apparently so, but I would have to mount some additional power source in the switchgear, e.g. 18V in addition to the standard 24V.

    I'll check out those RM85s, although I'm under the impression that I've got them installed in one switchboard.


    Well, I don't know if this is an elegant solution, but I guess you could reduce the voltage just before the coil with a resistor of sufficient power.... the coil is about 0.5W, not a scary power. As for the relay, this is the RM85 inrush version [bold contacts]. Against common sense, the fact that the sts are heavier makes them quieter. The problem may be the position and selection of voltage so that they work stably hanging in position as in the switchgear.

    As for those narrow relays, there is the RM699B series, which can theoretically be loaded up to 6A.

    However, if you dream of something super, you can use the new bistable series from Relpol Link [they only draw current when switched] .... ... but handling this in hardware and software is a bit of a challenge and I suspect that they are not quiet.
  • #8 12507667
    RomanFilipecki
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    Or maybe a triac + optotriac
  • #9 12507764
    Szymon Tarnowski
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    RomanFilipecki wrote:
    A maybe triac + optotriac
    to quote my first post
    I don't want to play around with building "modules" where the triac and optotriac will sit in the middle, I would like something ready-made.
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    #10 12508905
    RomanFilipecki
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    I am not writing about building, but since various multi-track interface layouts are found in automation systems then surely someone is producing them.
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    #11 12511162
    pafciowaw
    Automation specialist
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    There are SSRs on sale, e.g. 5A - made in thick-film technology, e.g. http://www.piekarz.pl/?page=offer&item=27605...tak so building multi-track interface kits is fabulously easy - it's just a shame that the leg spacing doesn't fit on some standard relay bases....
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  • #12 12512180
    Szymon Tarnowski
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    pafciowaw wrote:
    There are SSR relays on sale, e.g. 5A - made with thick-film technology
    Oh that's more or less what I would need. 5A is quite a lot, even if you assume "unfavourable" thermal conditions half of that current satisfies me. I've seen similar products from other companies and the catalogues generally have the bases available.
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  • #13 12704305
    Szymon Tarnowski
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    stkop wrote:
    These are quite quiet. Get one and check it out.
    http://www.relpol.pl/pl/Oferta/Produkty/Przek...agnetyczne-miniaturowe/Przekaznik-RM85-inrush
    There's also the trick that some Relpol relays [I don't know about other manufacturers] stably operate over a fairly wide range of coil control voltage. Lowering this voltage translates into quieter operation.
    Because I'm at the design stage, I've replaced the switchgear with 2x the size, so the "narrowness" criterion no longer plays a role. Are these RM85-inrush relays worthwhile? Currently I have not found a shop that will sell them, even the relpol shop only offers them with a 12V coil (and I need 24V). Supposedly a 12V coil will withstand a 24V supply but this will probably result in louder switching, so I guess there's no point in combining. The lead time is over a week, I need some suggestions on whether it's worth ordering and waiting or give up straight away.
  • #15 12731313
    Szymon Tarnowski
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    Popak wrote:
    As they are not. In TME there are only RM85 with standard contacts, code 2011/2021, or those with connectors with code 3021. I asked about RM85 In rush, which have contact code 50xx.

    Popak wrote:
    I have RM84 relays installed at my place, only they are powered by 230V, because I did not want a bigger power supply. When they are closed in the switchgear they are really quiet.
    Quiet means that when the door is closed can you hear a click or not?
  • #16 12731579
    Popak
    Moderator on vacation ...
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    Gently audible but not at all annoying, at least to me.
    Unless you have sensitive hearing or are sitting at the switchboard. It depends on the person.
    There are two more solutions.
    The first is to buy such an assembled circuit: http://sklep.avt.pl/p/pl/497329/modul+executive+with+triacs+-+uklad+zmontowany.html
    And the second is to buy a solid state relay: http://www.tme.eu/pl/details/ssr-1028zd3/przekazniki-ssr-jednofazowe/qlt-power/#
    Alternatively one like this: http://www.tme.eu/pl/details/ssr20-524c/przekazniki-ssr-jednofazowe/elco/# plus a base. http://www.tme.eu/pl/Document/296e4c5675fd286f959bf70f3fabc805/SSR%2021_20.pdf
    There is no other solution as you will not be doing it yourself as you stated.

    Regards
  • #17 12796536
    Szymon Tarnowski
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    I ordered these RM85s in the "inrush" version, they arrived yesterday, I put some in the switchgear for a test run. Previously I had RM85 in the regular version with a 12V coil (it has an acceptable voltage range up to 30V I think). I see no difference in volume when switching (24V coil voltage) between the
    - RM85 24V Inrush (contacts 5021)
    - RM85 12V (contacts I think 2011)
    "Tone" of switching is slightly different, but volume indistinguishable, even if you have the relays 20cm from your head.
  • #18 12796609
    stkop
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    What voltage are you controlling these Inrush? And what is the difference when the cabinet is closed and at a distance of, say, 2-3m?
  • #19 12796645
    Szymon Tarnowski
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    stkop wrote:
    What voltage are you controlling these Inrush? And what difference when the cabinet is closed and at a distance of e.g. 2-3m from it?
    As I wrote above, I control 24V, Inrush 24V coil, regular 12V. I haven't fitted the doors yet, they get in the way.
  • #20 12796676
    stkop
    Level 15  
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    I mentioned that these relays are allowed a fairly wide range of coil voltages. Lower those voltages... hopefully you will hear a significant difference.
  • #21 12827921
    ronwald
    Level 27  
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    Interesting subject :) ... the silent cycling of the relay contacts, which is disturbing.
    I don't suppose a colleague has installed a switchboard in his bedroom or kitchen ?

    Advice: when building or renovating a house, dedicate one room to the technical room.
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