Wiring a 260 m² house for future IB/KNX smart system: 4x2x0.5 enough?

Question

I am preparing to carry out an electrical installation in a new single-storey house of 260m2. The installation is to be made so that IB technology can be used in the future. Unfortunately, there are no plans as of today which IB system is to be used in the future, so the future part of the...

tomix · Answer

I am also thinking more and more seriously about a smart home, with the difficulty that the house is already standing

The plus is that I got it, and I can use the funds accumulated for "upgrading".
In line with your plans: use better cables for telco installations, the cost per 1mb is not staggering, and you are assured of eliminating interference (especially if the twisted pair is long or you let it outside the house). Use SFTP cables for the gateway, FTP for longer distances in the house, forget about UTP unless you want to connect the set-top box with the switch at a distance of 2m. I don't know if it makes sense to charge money for a CCTV installation, you need a DVR, power line and other bits and pieces. If you want a kosher solution, base the monitoring on IP cameras. Likewise with intercoms - look at IP video intercoms, where you connect the gate part to the intranet as well as the home part + an app for android / iphone operation. If you want to have both a video intercom + ipcam at the gate, consider a better twisted pair, or two - you can always use switches to increase bandwidth thanks to the 802.3ad standard. Returning to the house - you can plan a temperature sensor in each room that goes to the switchboard, and consider placing audio sockets in the corners of the room so that you don't have to run wires in the skirting boards depending on the location of the hi-fi equipment (or audio sockets to a centralised point). Make a power + hdmi socket somewhere in the ceiling for a future projector (I have one and recommend it). Run each network socket (rj45) out to a single point in the crossover panel hanging. Run as many pairs of wires as loops into the cabinets where you have modular manifolds for central heating (radiators/floors) - at some point you'll probably put solenoid valves in there to control the radiators/heating loops. I know from experience that a set of wires is useful on the roof - air conditioning, solar, photovoltaic panels, aerials. If you have a telephone (pstn) installation in the house run all the sockets down to one patch panel. At the windows / doors you can make outlets for reed switches - opening sensors, I don't trust radio solutions.

So much for my ideas.

stkop · Answer

- Since it's going to be 4x2x0.5 to each junction box anyway, I guess you could consider ditching the 4x1.5? I think this twisted pair could be used to control the relays in the switchboard. Alternatively, you could add a bus cable [a dozen boxes connected by one FTP]. - Have you considered Multiwall boxes [also from Simet] instead of shoeboxes? They seem more functional to me. Info about Multiwall

mt69 · Answer

As for FTP it's OK, but laying SFTP is probably overkill. If I'm wrong then please set me straight. As I wrote, I'm going to lay a twisted pair cable for CCTV that can run IP cameras as well as the others. I hadn't thought of that, but I'll have to discuss it with the builder, as I don't yet know how the CO issue will be solved. I thought of this too, but didn't mention anything, as rather my post is about the part of the installation that is supposed to be „intelligent&#8221 in the future; As for the ceiling, this will always be an open issue as there is no concrete ceiling and the ceiling is plasterboard and access from the loft side will be non stop. I would like to add that all installations will be carried out in the attic in cable trays, or in mesh cable ducts (except for sockets, which will be laid in the floor). I want to ensure that in the walls the cables run only vertically, in line with switches, sensors, controllers, etc. Can't these twisted pairs arranged in a star work as a bus? I don't think I can give up the 4x1.5 because the relays I mentioned I only want to use for lighting where there is a need for stairwell on/off, and if one day the choice falls on the LCN system it will be as good as it gets. I have never used the Multiwall boxes. Can you write a few words why they seem more functional to you?

stkop · Answer

A twisted pair arranged in a star can work as a bus, but this is the least favourable situation in terms of communication quality. In short, it can mean problems ... but it doesn't have to... a question of scale... how many arms in total there will be, what distances, how many devices will be installed as buses. The advantage of this solution is that you can support yourself with these wires as a switch to NO/NC inputs.

You can read more about multivalves here: http://inteldom.blogspot.com/2012/08/simet-nowe-modele-puszek-instalacyjnych.html

Aman Callede · Answer

I will, as it were, ask those more knowledgeable on the subject: Is there any particular reason why the most commonly suggested cable for smart installation is twisted pair? Wouldn't it be better to use YTDY type cable (of the type used in alarm installations) e.g. 8x0.5 ?

stkop · Answer

Yes. This applies to so-called bus connections based on a differential interface, e.g. RS-485 and derivatives. RS485- communication standard using a differential two-wire transmitter and the same receiver. It allows the connection of up to 32 transmitters and receivers. It was developed for better (noise immunity) and faster data transmission (35 Mbit/s over a distance of up to 10m, 100 kbit/s up to 120m). Using transmission cable in the form of a twisted-pair cable, it is possible to eliminate the influence of most electromagnetic interference. RS485 is the most commonly used interface wired in industrial networks source p.28 : ftp://ztchs.p.lodz.pl/Int_w_sm/IwSM.pdf

Aman Callede · Answer

OK - every bus has its optimum cables for a given transmission and this is not debatable. My question, however, is not about the bus but about the ordinary low-voltage control cable in the type of smart installation referred to in this thread, i.e., for example, the cable connecting the keys on the walls to the centrally located programmable controller. In that case we are not dealing with a bus.

stkop · Answer

In this case there is no need for twisted pair cable.... On the electrode you can find some discussion on this topic: Link

Aman Callede · Answer

The question arose from the fact that in most cases anyone doing this type of DIY installation always assumes the use of twisted pair. On the other hand, Satel, for example, advises against the use of twisted pair. So I wonder what is the reason for this attachment to twisted-pair used as control cable in this type of installation. Is it a matter of price, the popularity of twisted pair as such (as YTDY type cables are not so widespread) or simply the repetition of the scheme? Perhaps in practice both types of cable will perform exactly the same in such applications, although such a comparison is unfortunately difficult to make.

Thanks for the link - I used to look for something on this subject but didn't come across this thread.

And41x1 · Answer

I will describe the problems I observe in already wired houses, during white installation and
initial use.
Twisted pair quality and throughput disappointment - requirements grow quickly and it is worth putting on a class better than assumed, and it happens that the quality described, is not confirmed in practice. Possibly also due to poor alignment.
A central 12VDC power supply is useful - it is a pity to desperately search for places, for plug-in power supplies, in places of assumed aesthetics (video intercom monitors, etc.) and in places of uncontrolled temperature, such as the attic with RTV and SAT installation elements.
The boxes proposed by stkop , would also facilitate installation and upgrades in many places.
On the outside, a really spade- and rodent-proof pessel, which is effectively a PE water pipe.

mt69 · Answer

Looking at your discussion, I come to the conclusion that it is impossible to prepare a truly universal installation. Different building automation systems prefer different types of control cables as well as different ways of laying these installations (starred, bus in loop, etc.) So what twisted pair should I use for my project so that I don't have the problems you write about in the future? Do I understand correctly that the idea of putting an ICT centre in the attic is not the best? And cans with pockets (bots) do not work? Arot corrugated pipe I think can replace PE pipe with dignity - laid in one piece, gentle curves.

stkop · Answer

There is nothing to be paranoid about. It's not like it's terribly zero-one. Just because a solution favours a certain type of cable or its location structure does not mean that it ex officio excludes other solutions. Apparently statistically electronics in attics are more vulnerable to lightning.... but this may just be a myth. This is not the point... As the way electrical wiring has evolved, the volume of space in electrical boxes has changed. The shoe is an invention created for installers of systems with modules for junction boxes (the so-called lozenges) [e.g. LCN]... but now things have become so colourful that sometimes you need somewhere to fit a power supply, or a switch with a built-in dimmer or PIR detector.... + e.g. a relay of some kind.... an electronics board to control infrared or leds.... all sorts of things. Multiwalls just give you a better chance that all these bits and bobs can somehow fit in there. It's just that at the moment they're probably the widest flush-mounted boxes suitable for mounting traditional switches.

mt69 · Answer

I had such a cunning plan to mount shoes in the places of all the switches. If there were to be, for example, three switches in a triple frame then install three shoes. Maybe a bit overkill, but better to have a spare than not.

And41x1 · Answer

In an average sprawling building, ... unknown quality twisted pair 5e cable is going to cause capacity problems. Then the quality of the terminal equipment and doubts about the correctness of the routing (e.g. fixing with staples,... multiple, sharp bends) also come out ..So we are looking for guaranteed quality performance.... e.g. - More on this topic on the web... e.g. here - Good RTV SAT equipment, can withstand a lot when it comes to extreme temperatures,. especially in a ventilated RACK... power supply, even the best, I would prefer to guard against such temperatures - durability. Antenna cables, I customarily protect - ..with good protected cable, will protect, from lightning in the neighbour.... only. Shoeboxes in places where, certainly or presumably, there will be some aftermarket modules, and Multiwall in the rest, just in case and for ease of installation / upgrade. Decent... but will it take effortless and pilotless, just a hundred seconds to push 25 metres, three strands? - the plumbing is only slightly less susceptible, but can be twisted to the wicket post.... It's also worth comparing performance and prices.

mt69 · Answer

That's why I'll be pulling in instead of pushing in.

greg16 · Answer

Hello . I have never had the opportunity to perform intelligent installation on the PLC, but some of my installations, to a greater or lesser extent, contained a substitute of automation implemented on the alarm system . Without any problems, on an alarm system expanded, of course, with I/0 expanders, GSM, and various sensors, I realized various functions of light control, roller shutters, water valves, temperature, permanently plugged-in devices, etc . As far as installations are concerned, in my case: 4x1.5 from each lamp, passing through the switch (in case of need) + from the switch a twisted pair, from roller shutters 4x1.5 also passing through the switch of the shutter + a twisted pair, in addition I run wires to the central heating distributor and the boiler room. If the option of controlling the heating is taken into account, each zone will receive a 3x1 cable for the thermostat + optionally a twisted pair, while the remaining non-controlled circuits, i.e. sockets, will receive a 3x2.5 cable. Sockets which are to be controlled in the future - 3x2.5 cable straight to the distribution board. In addition, a thick conduit (Arot 50 or PE) is laid outside for the gate automatics and intercom, and at least 3 fi 23 conduits from the distribution board to the attic. If the investor's funds allow, the installation is made entirely in a conduit (fi 13, 16, 18, 21, 23 750N). In such an installation it is possible to make various changes by adding cables or replacing them with new ones. Installations are made for years!

Wiring a 260 m² house for future IB/KNX smart system: 4x2x0.5 enough?

Is two or three 4x2x0.5 twisted-pair cables enough for future smart-home wiring, and which cable types should be used for KNX/IB control, LAN, CCTV and outdoor links in a 260 m² house?

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