Conditions for increasing the connection power in the apartment

Hello. I have the following problem. I submitted an application to the housing cooperative for permission to install an electric instantaneous water heater and an induction cooker. Of course, this requires a three-phase installation and an increase in power. They initially agree on 22 kW and 40 A protection. Apartment in a block of flats from the late 1970s, two-wire installation. The response I received from sp-ni amazed me and honestly I don't know what to think about it. I will quote some fragments. I faked the particularly controversial ones.

Submit to SP-ni diagrams of the premises' power supply and electrical installations in the apartment, including:
- internal power lines supplying the residential premises on the section from the bunk box to the switchboard in the apartment
- a floor board with an electricity measurement system and pre-meter protection
- residential switchboard, which should be equipped with appropriately selected: residual current circuit breaker with a switching current of 30.0 mA, overvoltage protection , automatic S-type circuit breakers protecting electrical circuits in the apartment that supply power to receiving devices
- electrical installations inside the apartment

The working arrangement of electrical installations in a residential premises: TN-S

What does all this mean? Do all these requirements apply to a new section of the installation, or do they expect me to tear out the entire installation in the apartment? After all, things like differential will not work in a two-wire installation And how can you write that the electrical installation system should be TN-S when the existing installation from the 1970s is two-wire. The third thing is, how can I present them with diagrams of all electrical installations in the apartment, since the installation was done by them 35 years ago and they should know what is in the walls, not me.

Please tell me who is abnormal here - me or them - because I am starting to feel dark despair.

The electrician will know.
You will prepare a proposal for changes in the apartment's power supply system, taking into account increased power, cable cross-sections and the number of conductors for the newly installed circuits, and present it to the Cooperative for approval.
Schemes apply
- WLZ line from the double-decker box
- change of electricity "metering" from 1- to 3-phase and pre-meter protection
- changing the switchgear to a different, larger one with new circuits.
The new installation should be performed in accordance with currently applicable regulations. The cooperative cannot order the replacement of the remaining part.

Finally, apply to the appropriate RE/ZE for a new power allocation and technical conditions for connecting the premises to the energy network. attaching the consent of the Cooperative.

Have you submitted a request for increased power to your electricity supplier?

I'm going to submit an application to ZE tomorrow.

My only concern is whether this letter does not indicate that I have to replace the electrical installation in the entire premises.

Explain the matter to the Cooperative and ask for the basis for this "order"

-Obywatel- wrote:

Please tell me who is abnormal here - me or them

Unfortunately, it looks like YOU did.

masonry wrote:

-Obywatel- wrote:

Please tell me who is abnormal here - me or them

Unfortunately, it looks like YOU did.

But in what sense - are my doubts unreasonable/unfounded?

In the sense that the cooperative is renovating its resources at the tenant's expense.
Bit by bit

I feel like they just want to cut the crap out of me. The gas heaters in the block are being removed and municipal hot water is being connected, and there is strong lobbying for this solution. There are probably strange arrangements between the heating plant and the cooperative. I don't want hot water from the city and I'm the only one who has broken out and wants an electric heater. (Just please don't convince me to use hot water from the city. I have important reasons why I don't want this solution.)

Do I have any chance in a fight with the cooperative to enforce my rights, not necessarily taking into account "I see" them?

Of course. Let the cooperative indicate the legal basis for ordering the replacement of the entire installation in the apartment.
To be clear, such an order is justified in the event of a threat to the life and/or health of residents and a fire hazard caused by this installation.

elpapiotr , thanks for your help so far. I'll go to the cooperative tomorrow.

I do not do. Do we have any reservations about this opinion?

Could I ask you to comment on my colleague's opinion? elpapiotr ?

In response to a request to increase power, does the power plant have the right to demand that the entire installation be changed to TN-S? Is this a normal and rational practice on the part of the building administrator? Does everyone who wants to increase the connection power really have to tear up their entire house? Or maybe sp-nia is upset with me? How important will ZE's voice be in this matter? If ZE does not request the same changes as the cooperative, will what the cooperative requires still apply to me?

This topic bothers me terribly.

But what prevents you from connecting the old installation to the new switchgear?

I won't connect a welder or five fryers to 220V sockets

Where do you read that you have to replace the entire installation?
This is what happens when you don't know the topic and try to tackle it yourself.
It is not possible to write everything on the forum, a local visit is needed.
Invite an electrician and he will explain everything to you and the cooperative.
You will still need an electrician to make the necessary modifications, because they cannot be done without a license.
For now, this whole topic is just one big black pudding.
First of all, it should be explained to the cooperative that only the newly constructed part of the installation will work in the TNC-S system, and this will be better explained by an electrician.
I don't understand what the cooperative has to do with all this?
The cooperative can only give consent to forging in common parts, provided that these parts are restored to the condition they were in before the work.

masonry , exactly as you say - I intend to make the new part of the installation in accordance with today's regulations - 5 wires and a decent cross-section. I only want to leave the existing circuits as they were.

Anyway, I guess I shouldn't have worried because I have 3 wires in all sockets It was done during renovation and I didn't even know about it :)

In turn, when I talked to the connection technician at ZE, he was not so principled and said, for example, that because of one socket without a pin in the bedroom, they certainly would not stop me from increasing the power and installing three phases.

Added after 49 [seconds]:

The electrician has already been scheduled. I will write in the topic what he ruled.

-Obywatel- wrote:

However, when I talked to the connection technician at ZE, he was not so principled

One of the few who believes that the energy supplier should be interested in what falls within its competences. And there are definitely no "bolts" in the bedroom.

Bronek22 wrote:

Some time ago, ZE in Warsaw did not consent to such numbers.
Maybe they have changed now to get money at any cost.

It was like that, but for a very short period, at least 10/15 years ago. This was caused by the craze for RCD switches every time the meter board was turned on. Fortunately, this was quickly withdrawn after an avalanche of protests. I don't know if it wasn't an invention of some acceptance inspector (the last link).

Bronek22 wrote:

They required the Cooperative's approval for everything.

Immediately after the operation to increase the power, I intend to transform the cooperative ownership right to the premises into separate property because my cooperative irritates me more and more. Then they will formally cease to be the owners of the premises and will be able to whistle at me.

-Obywatel- wrote:

Bronek22 wrote:

They required the Cooperative's approval for everything.

Immediately after the operation to increase the power, I intend to transform the cooperative ownership right to the premises into separate property because my cooperative irritates me more and more. Then they will formally cease to be the owners of the premises and will be able to whistle at me.

Is that possible? Something dawns on me that the whole block should leave the cooperative and transform into a housing community, but I could be wrong.
Regards

-Obywatel- wrote:

Immediately after the operation to increase the power, I intend to transform the cooperative ownership right to the premises into separate property because my cooperative irritates me more and more. Then they will formally cease to be the owners of the premises and will be able to whistle at me.

After this transformation, will the walls between you and your neighbor be your property, the Cooperative's or your neighbor's? Same with the ceilings. Will you also transform some area of the roof and foundations?
What about the common WLZ? Why can't you start transforming before increasing your power?

zbich70 wrote:

Why can't you start transforming before increasing your power?

Because I'm too busy a man to engage with the cooperative (read: horse) on two issues at once ;)

Added after 10 [minutes]:

warlock76 wrote:

Is that possible? Something dawns on me that the entire block should leave the cooperative and transform into a housing community, but I could be wrong.

The transformation of the cooperative ownership right to the premises into separate ownership is not tantamount to secession from the cooperative.

-Obywatel- wrote:

Because I'm too busy a man to engage with the cooperative (read: horse) on two issues at once

I still don't understand why you consider the first issue (increasing power) to be "horse kicking".

PS. I would lash out at the Cooperative for not making an entry like this "all work should be performed by a person with the qualifications required by law" , which caused all the confusion.

Hello!
We don't know what the WLZ looks like or what the cross-sections of the power cables are. I suspect they are old 16mm^ aluminum single strands. You will probably need to replace the entire WLZ. Please provide some photos of the security measures in the staircase. You won't miss an electrician's visit.
Regards

zbich70 wrote:

PS. I would blame the Cooperative for the lack of an entry such as "all work should be performed by a person with the qualifications required by law", which caused all the confusion.

Of course there was such an entry. I simply did not quote it here because I consider it obvious and beyond discussion.

As for WLZ, a guy from the cooperative came with another specialist and this specialist said that the cable would pull much more than I wanted. It's just that someone already put force in the cage and a decent cable is placed all the way to the top.