Do the "E" permissions up to 1kV allow you to connect an induction hob

Question

Dear forum members, I am addressing you as definitely more experienced colleagues and I am asking for your understanding as my questions may seem trivial but I do not know the answers to them. Well, I would like to know your opinion (preferably supported by legal regulations) what the...

zdzisiek1979 · Accepted Answer

I'll give you some good advice.
Give it a rest.
Why?
You release a record, who pays the client for it?
People want miracles and you can't hear. You will be tempted to pay PLN 100 and it may cost you 100x10
I prefer to let go and have peace, let the other one get stressed.
The slab is a circuit separated in a tenement house in blocks of flats? Circuit separate light fuse, socket fuse. And now risk connecting this wonder. And enter the warranty with a well-connected.

pawel1148 · Accepted Answer

I support the issue of not connecting the device, because actually connecting an induction hob may surpass the knowledge of a technician with SEP qualifications.
I was wondering on what basis someone made the thesis that this installation can be in the TT network ?? The moderator rightly pointed out that at the end of this cable there is definitely no PEN wire (this one requires a much thicker wire - for accuracy at least 10mmCU), the author said about the lack of PE. The rest is unknown to us. Personally, I have hardly seen TT networks in my life. I'm not saying that they are not there, but I hope the vast majority are secured with a differential. Because somehow I can not imagine the possibility of meeting any shock protection other than insulation in a 3-phase system with overcurrent protection. But probably such cases may still take place somewhere else.

I am writing about it only because the author may have taken it not as divination, but as an unequivocal definition of the web by a knowledgeable person.

As for the willingness to learn, it speaks well for the author. Just when it comes to learning electrics in practice, the Internet is not the best place for that.
It is enough to look at YouTube, what are the perpetual motion, free energy, etc. constructions presented there, then you wonder why these coal miners are still digging this coal, to spite power plants that have to buy it. Somewhere it has even started to switch to the electrode lately.
Personally, I do not take the comments of people on the electrode, who are not moderators, very seriously. Because they are written by people who do not necessarily have an idea about a given topic, e.g. at the moment I am. Because I do not have full knowledge in this area, but I try not to write things that only seem to be true, because they turned out to be fiction many times.
On pages that look like a serious source of information, I also managed to come across a strong over-interpretation of the author.

viertnik · Accepted Answer

This is not correct reasoning. The TN-CS network is created by separating the PEN conductor in the TN-C network into the N and PE conductors. Usually, the PEN conductor is introduced to the PE strip in the switchgear, then you make a bridge to the N strip in the switchgear. Then connect the PE strip to the GSU (Main Grounding Rail) with a wire, and connect the building's earth electrode to the GSU (e.g. ring, foundation. The latter is almost indestructible) Homework for you: - see the term equipotentialization - familiarize yourself with the term IPZ (short circuit loop impedance) and try to draw it for different types of supply networks for L-phase and PE-protective conductors

kozi966 · Accepted Answer

Mistake. from the place of separation, the installation works in the TN-S system. To the separation point in TN-C. All in TN-CS. A pure TN-S system can be found in the industrial sector, where the investor puts his own transformer and requires separate N and PE conductors from the transformer itself. This is perfectly correct reasoning. The TN-CS grid system consists of two coexisting systems in one installation (TN-S and TN-C). Put simply, part of the facility has a new installation (TN-S) and part of the facility has an old installation (TN-C). It may be that the TN-S system is an extended part of the TN-C system. In general and quite broad terms, all facilities supplied from the grid of a power utility (when supplied by TN), and which have a new installation, work (including the network) in the TN-CS system. Badly. In the TN-C system, there is no neutral conductor as an independent conductor. In the installation (and not in the network ...) there is a conductor that fulfills the role of a protective-neutral conductor (PEN), but due to the lack of a minimum cross-section requirement, it is not. Hence, this system in the installation is not classified. Once upon a time, this circuit was one that applied zero protection. It can be identified by measuring the fault loop or by a fairly thorough visual inspection. In the case of quite low short-circuit currents on the L-PE line (eg 30-40A), it can be assumed that we are dealing with TT. However, this should be confirmed with the connection conditions. Ways of protection in TT is a topic for a longer lecture, as is the description of these networks, which I have briefly posted.

zbich70 · Accepted Answer

Such an option is unacceptable - once split, the PEN does not reconnect. The rest would match. As long as I read it correctly. And I would not have to read if my friend was using diagrams and not descriptions of the type the X wire goes to the bus ... and the Y wire is used for ..., while the Z wire is bridged ... and so on. This is how historians describe the battlefields, but nevertheless post drawings visualizing how the troops moved ... What do you mean with this circuit mixing? You can mix it peas with cabbage. TN-CS means that from the supply side (transformer station) the same cable is used for protection purposes (C-combine-common), and then these functions are separated into separate cables - protection is taken over by another cable (hence S - separe - separate).

zbich70 · Accepted Answer

The energy supply network works in a specific system and the receiving installation is to be adapted to this system.

elpapiotr · Accepted Answer

That's right. Only when a 3/5-wire installation is connected to the apartment, we are not able to determine (without IPZ measurements, for example), in which network system the power supply is made.
(This is such information for the author of the topic).

zbich70 · Accepted Answer

We will come to this in the difficult process of training a young electrician technician. We can do it... Unless he searches the forum himself, because it has been discussed dozens of times. But well ... today's youth must have everything served on a plate ...

retrofood · Answer

The post is not multi-threaded, but I still feel embarrassed reading it. Because you formally have the qualifications necessary to connect the cooker, but the questions you ask make me advise against doing this. You just won't know what you're doing or why. 1. Neutral conductor yes, there is definitely no PEN conductor, let alone PE. a) How do you want to split the PEN if it is not there? When are we allowed to split PEN? What minimum cross-section must have a PEN? b) There is no PEN and no EP, no discussion. c) do not confuse periodic measurements and the assessment of the condition of the installation with a specific activity. Each electrician, after performing any work, is obliged to check whether he has not caused any danger or made a mistake. d) you can read what the manufacturers require in the warranty card.

noels · Answer

As you can see, my knowledge is incomplete and that's why I am asking for help to complete it, unfortunately I see that this forum makes fun of people who expect help, but I will not give up and I will ask you for a more detailed explanation.

You write:

The neutral conductor is true, there is definitely no PEN conductor, let alone PE.

so I understand that I used the wrong nomenclature and there is a zero wire - right?

How do you want to split the PEN if it's not there?

there is no because it's called zero - right?

When are we allowed to split PEN?

I do not know

What minimum cross-section must have a PEN?

- 16 mm2?

How do you want to split the PEN if it's not there?

there is no because it's called zero, right?
so since there is no protective conductor, I should connect the protective conductor coming from the stove to it, right?

Peter134 · Answer

Or maybe there is no zero or PEN because it is a TT network? And then what?

noels · Answer

In TT networks, the protective conductor coming from the device is not connected to the neutral conductor? Will you write something more right away?

Łukasz-O · Answer

Or maybe a friend would train himself and read about it. The forum is there to help, but it will not replace the school.

zbich70 · Answer

He wrote that he has an electrical secondary school.

Peter134 · Answer

@ zbich70 And I have a pickaxe. I am a miner? To have a degree and school, and knowledge sometimes does not go hand in hand.

hubertkoncki · Answer

Well, I remember when a student from the 3rd class of an electrical technical school came. End of the day, we gather. I asked my friend to secure the bare (after testing) wires from the hanging lamp cable. After securing, I turned on the fuse and BUMP. It turned out that an adept in electrical art had twisted all the wires and wrapped them in insulation.

noels · Answer

Writing in the post about the fact that I have completed a technical school, I did not do it to be proud of it because there is nothing to do. I meant here the issues related to what I can (theoretically) do in conjunction with the rights, although now I know that it does not matter in the slightest.

In order not to worry you anymore - I entrusted it more (I hope) to a competent electrician.

Only you see, the thing is, when writing here on the forum I expected a definitely "different" approach and not to make fun of me. It is true that I lack knowledge and, above all, practice in the profession because I do not do it every day. Just to be clear - I did not expect a caress, but I wanted to learn from the statement. I do not believe that any man with even the greatest theoretical knowledge gained from school was an alpha and omega from the very beginning, you need to acquire practice in order to perform this profession (like any other) in a properly good manner.

When reading threads on this forum, I very often encounter total destruction of people who go here even for the simplest tips. I notice that sometimes the questions that appear on the forum here are really elementary and you can see that someone has no idea about electricity. Perhaps my questions were just as stupid ... I don't know. I will write honestly that so far, despite reviewing the literature I have, I do not know how to recognize the TT network and I would love to find out, but I doubt the good atmosphere on this forum and that someone would really like to write ... man, you have to start from checking it ... pay attention to this ... or make one or another measurement ... because you know the TT network is characterized by this and that and that is why you will recognize it from the TN system. Once you define the type of network and you have n wires in the cable and you have found 3 phase wires and the fourth wire (neutral, neutral or protective-neutral - unfortunately, I also have a problem with the nomenclature here), then in the TT network you do this ... because. .... and in the TN (C, CS, S) network, depending on whether the system has a residual current device or not, connect the protective conductor of the devices in this place ... or find an additional wire if you have free wire for it and connect it in the fuse board on a rail with protective conductors or on a rail with protective-neutral conductors - unless I used the wrong nomenclature again.
and just what I expected - too much?

So he asks himself what is the point of the existence of such a forum?

Scare and discourage instead of pointing out the error but at the same time explaining, explaining so that someone can understand?

retrofood · Answer

Sorry, Winnetou, I suspect that no one has any intention of making fun of you, but that you accused me of it first, so by the way write what it looks like on your side. What exactly in my first statement did you find to be ridiculing? The fact that I wrote the truth that I feel embarrassed (I remember how much I knew myself in technical school, so I have a comparison), or that I tried to direct you to the right path with my questions? If you find the statement of facts to be ridiculed (I am writing in the plural because it is becoming commonplace), I am sorry, but I don't think we understand each other. We are here to help you professionally, but to expect stroking and petting is a little exaggeration in my opinion. One should approach other people for such experiences.

noels · Answer

@retrofood - I don't accuse you of it, maybe I'm just oversensitive or used to a completely different tone on my industry forums.

but note for yourself:

Quote:
Or maybe a friend would train himself and read about it. The forum is there to help, but it will not replace the school.

but it can help if someone wants to provide information, right?

Quote:
He wrote that he has an electrical secondary school.

haaa ...

Quote:
And I have a pickaxe. I am a miner? To have a degree and school, and knowledge sometimes does not go hand in hand.

That's right, but why aren't we focusing on trying to help just Continuous Assessment?

Yes, it is true that, as you can see, I lack knowledge and experience, so I try to look for help, sitting and doing nothing in order to gain this knowledge, broaden it, I will not achieve anything.

Note that instead of focusing you in this thread on trying to answer my questions (I don't think trying to lead someone is wrong) like this:

Quote:
Or maybe there is no zero or PEN because it is a TT network? And then what?

It's just a pity it ended there.
I hope you understand at least a little what I mean.

retrofood · Answer

I understand and I don't. After all, my statement was the only one and you wrote it after it: I don't understand!

noels · Answer

Maybe I'm too emotional about it ... and over-interpreting certain things.

Let's start from the beginning, so now it's only purely theoretically. The first thing that intrigued me was the nomenclature of the cable.
because you write:

Quote:
The neutral conductor is true, there is definitely no PEN conductor, let alone PE

Until now, I was convinced that if, for example, in an apartment in a switchgear with protections (behind the meter) we have a situation such that individual circuits have a neutral (N), phase and protective (PE) conductor, then such an installation is called TN-S. All N conductors of individual circuits are connected to a common N strip, and all protective conductors (PE) of individual circuits are connected to the PE strip. The PE conductors of the receivers are connected only to the PE conductor. The case of a single-phase three-wire installation
If, on the other hand, there is a case that the circuits have only two conductors behind the meter - neutral and phase, then such an installation is called a TN-C installation, and the neutral conductor plays the role of the protective-neutral conductor (PEN) and in this case the protective conductors from the devices are connected to the conductor zero (PEN)
And a situation where some circuits have an independent protective conductor and some are not called a TN-CS network

Up to this point, am I correct or am I wrong, and if so, at what point?

kozi966 · Answer

The installation in the TN-S network system has the following cables: Neutral (N), Protective (PE) and phase (s) (L). There is no zero (N) there - whatever that means. And that is correct, it fulfills its role, but it is not. For the simple reason, it does not meet the mechanical strength requirements.

noels · Answer

@ kozi966

You did not negate the rest of my statement regarding the network layout (except for the correction of the cable nomenclature - thank you), so I understand that I distinguish them correctly, right?
However, if not - please correct it

let's move on ...

Now I would like to find out how the protective conductors of the devices or the protective contacts in the sockets in particular types of networks should be connected correctly. My knowledge on this subject is as follows:

TN-S: the newest and safest type of network, protective contacts of sockets or protective conductors of devices are connected with a separate PE protective conductor, the beginning of which takes place on the PE bus in the switchgear with electrical devices (circuit breakers, RCD, etc.) after the meter.
TN-C: older and less safe type of network, the protective contacts of the sockets should be connected with the neutral conductor N and then connected with the working contact N of the socket with a bridge, the neutral conductor here acts as a neutral-protective conductor, this solution is so much less It is safe that if the neutral wire is broken, the protection is lost, because if there is voltage on the device housing, the overcurrent switch will not work.
TN-CS: mixed situation, i.e. some circuits from TN-S installations and some from TN-C installations

is that correct reasoning?

And what is the security situation in TT networks and how to recognize such a network from the others?

zbich70 · Answer

And it would be best to treat TN-S in this way, which means clean. 100% of laymen and most adepts do not know what you mean by clean because it does not distinguish between network and installation. Laymen and adepts also do not know when to count on the net and when not. So it's best to always count on the net.

noels · Answer

@viertnik - thank you, of course I will read the topics thoroughly.

Quote:
Homework for you:
- see the term "equipotentialization"
- familiarize yourself with the term IPZ (short circuit loop impedance) and try to draw it for different types of supply networks for L-phase and PE-protective conductors

For me to understand correctly, let's go down to the lowest level, probably the simplest possible - a flat in a block of flats - so let's deal with installation .

Or about installation working in the TN-S system, we will say when:
- a 3x4mm2 wire goes to the apartment, consisting of the following wires: N, PE, L and the N wire goes to the N strip in the switchgear with devices, the PE wire goes to the PE strip, (the strips are not bridged with each other), the L wire is used to supply the bus with circuit breakers from which individual circuits are distributed, i.e. lighting, sockets, etc. Of course, the circuits have 3-core wires, of which, for example, the powered socket is connected in such a way that the PE wire is connected to the protective contact, and of course the N and L wire to the working contacts ?

Or about installation working in the TN-C system, we will say when:
- a 2x4mm2 cable goes to the apartment, consisting of the following wires: PEN, L and the PEN wire goes to the PEN strip in the switchgear with devices, the L wire is used to power the overcurrent switches from which individual circuits are distributed, i.e. lighting, sockets, etc. Of course, the circuits have wires 2 conductors, of which, for example, powered outlet is connected in such a way that the PEN conductor is connected to the protective contact, from which the N working contact is bridged, and the L?

Or about installation working in the TN-CS system, we will say when:
- a 2x4mm2 cable goes to the apartment, consisting of the following wires: PEN, L and the PEN wire goes to the PEN strip in the switchgear with devices, the L wire is used to power the bus with overcurrent switches from which individual circuits are distributed, i.e. lighting, sockets, etc. The circuits are different, e.g. one circuit has 3-core wires, from which, for example, the powered socket is connected in such a way that the PE wire is connected to the protective contact, which starts with the PEN bus, and the working contacts, of course, the N and L wire, while the other circuit is via a two-wire circuit from which another socket is powered in such a way that the PEN conductor, which originates from the PEN bus in the switchgear with devices, is introduced to the protective contact of the socket from which the working contact N is bridged, and the conductor L is connected to the working phase contact? in short, part of the installation is modernized and some is not.

or the same situation as above but:
- a 3x4mm2 cable goes to the apartment, consisting of the following wires: PE, N, L and PE and N wires go to a common PEN strip (they are bridged with each other), the rest as above, i.e. mixed circuits

alternatively
- a 2x4mm2 cable goes to the apartment, consisting of the following wires: PEN, L and the PEN wire goes to the PEN strip ... but all circuits already have a separate PE protective conductor (TN-S)

What determines whether the installation works in the TN-CS system is the fact that there are "mixed circuits" in it, i.e. with and without a protective cable, or is it possible that the impurities go to the PE, N, L or PEN, L conductor?

noels · Answer

@ Zbich70 Believe me, I've got a sweat on it too ... ;-) about that: I also thought that it was pointless, but I suggested that the team replacing the entire installation inside the block, letting me a connection cable (5x4mm2) from the corridor to my room in the apartment, connected PE and N to the common rail, despite the fact that I have 100 in my apartment % TN-S .... anyway, a portion of solid knowledge in this thread for me for which I thank everyone. What I am still very curious about is whether you can find installation inside a single-family house / flat working in the TT system, or is it the fact that only the grid supplying energy to the facility can work in the TT system? This is about one of the first posts in which the conversation took place regarding the connection of the protective conductor of the plate, and then Peter134 wrote: will someone explain to me?

elpapiotr · Answer

Unfortunately, it was not a professional team, by the way. A blind electrician did this without knowing your installation.

noels · Answer

@ Zbich70 you ask: in reference to my words: I depicted it in the attached drawing: 1. TN-S system 2. There is a circuit with a 3-core cable and a 2-core cable in the apartment, is it TN-CS or is it still TN-S because what counts is the system in which the power is supplied to the apartment, i.e. PE, N, L conductor? 3. TN-C system 4. There are 3-wire circuits and 2-wire circuits in the apartment, is it a TN-CS system or is it a TN-C system because what counts is the system in which the power is supplied to the apartment, i.e. in this case the PEN and L wires?

Akrzy74 · Answer

And here we are about to start designing the installation. Point 7 -> Link I close.

Do the "E" permissions up to 1kV allow you to connect an induction hob

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