[Solved] Apartment Gas Pipe Shortening: Safety Regulations, Monopoly Issues & DIY Solutions

Hello. There is a case that the kitchen was renovated in the apartment. I do not have a gas license, so the client called the administration regarding the shortening of the gas pipe. The administration accepted the order, sent a man, informs about the cost per job. And the man refuses to do it. Reports that the job is not feasible. Personally, I want to do it after hours, but I will not issue a certificate that everything is ok. Gas is general and each tenant's consumption is included in the rent, so no one except the administration can come and do it.
This is a description of the situation that is taking place. Monopoly.
And now maybe someone is more familiar with and knows what are the modern safety regulations related to gas installations?
Somewhere my ears crossed my mind that there should be no elbow or muff connections in front of the valve. Maybe it can be done by the administration free of charge under the security regulations?

Not quite. How do you have a stove at home plus the so-called junkers you throw out those nightmare pipes and put copper fi 22, although 18 is enough. Hard soldering or crimping. Call a professional for this and that's it. As apart from the gas meter, half the trouble. Before, more ado. and reattach the gas meter.

Or is the condition of the pipes known to the contractor the problem?

But how do you get to the main valve? There are no separate meters with valves in this block, no meters.

Added after 6 [minutes]:

And what you can see in the photos protrudes above the table top and messes up the whole work. It is strange that the administration accepts the order precisely described, i.e. the valve ratio with twisting the pipe. And the foreman comes and says it's not feasible by the administration. This can be done for e.g. 200 but .. no guarantee. It's like he doesn't have permission. I know what's going on, but my question is, can it somehow avoid this monopoly?

I once saw a gas gun in action. A gas gun without quotation marks, because it had permissions. He clamped the target section of a copper pipe with a valve. He opened the windows and on a living organism unscrewed an inch pipe under the gas. Using a solid rag, he blocked the hole. Some gas escaped. He immediately clamped the pre-prepared valve section on the piece and checked for leaks.
Yes, he did it quickly and agile. Health and safety? Fear of speaking. But he said: "Mr. closing the main valve, it is necessary to inform all tenants. And how if the stove goes out and I put the gas on again? And it wasn't 40 years ago, but recently.

KrzychKedzier wrote:

Somewhere my ears crossed my mind that there should be no elbow or muff connections in front of the valve.

I do not know about the new regulations on this subject, because I was not interested in it, in my entire block from the end of the 1960s, the gas installation is bolted, not welded.

gimak wrote:

in the entire block from the late 1960s, the gas installation is bolted, not welded.

Old, old rules, no one will do it, since it works well.
New installations only welded or brazed. In the case of the author of the post, you can definitely convert it with twisting, only the condition of these pipes probably "scared" the specialist.

palmus wrote:

Ladies closing the main valve

This is also a big problem.

Yes, it is. You are not interested in the installation in the block, only from the gas meter. What pre-requires a paper and financial intervention of the General Committee.

Okay, how do you cut a steel pipe without screwing the valve on? Well, it seems to me that the grinder is not an option. I would also have concerns with a saw blade ...

KrzychKedzier wrote:

and how to cut a steel pipe without screwing on the valve?

Would you like to deal with the prosecutor?
Few tenement houses have been blew up recently ..

palmus wrote:

on a living organism unscrewed an inch pipe under the gas

...
It succeeded, but it is not a professional, but a kamikaze.

Gas cutting excluded.

brofran wrote:

only the condition of these pipes probably "scared" the specialist.

These pipes only externally, maybe they look bad. For me, after 40 years, when I changed the position of the water heater, when I changed the gas supply of the heater, I looked at the disassembled gas pipes. There was no sign of rust, the inside walls were greasy.

palmus wrote:

I once saw a gas gun in action. A gas gun without quotation marks because it had permissions. It clamped the target section of the pipe ...

It's still nothing, somehow in the early 1980s I was building a house and the gas supply pipe from the street was two meters too long (for clarification, gas in the street, in front of the reducer, is about 0.4 MPa, after the reducer is a fraction of it) , work on the job (otherwise the boys from the gasworks did not want to) and after hours .... they dug a hole around the pipe as if after a bombardment, cut the pipe with an ordinary hacksaw (summer, dry, escaping gas raised clouds of various things, it smelled on the area ... ), they plugged the hole with a wooden pin soaked in water (everything under pressure, we stood around so that someone would not throw a cigarette butt), threaded the end of the pipe with a pin and screwed on a muff with a plug, then a moment for a cigarette break. Then the action was even better: the visitor put a piece of a similar pipe with a thread at the end and a threaded straight-through tap perpendicularly to the clogged GAS pipe, welded this piece of pipe with an oxygen-acetylene torch without getting inside the gas pipe, after cooling the weld, he put a piece of iron underneath and from the top he pierced (with a punch and a hammer) the gas pipe, the gas flew sharply again but after the puncture, he turned off the tap, the rest is now a bed. Now, everyone will do what they need to do ... it worked for over 20 years, then they changed the entire installation on the estate to a plastic one.

It's not really about monopoly, but that you have combined connections there. As a man does the modernization officially, this pipe would have to be converted into welded or soldered (and this is, of course, cutting off the entire block and everything related to it) in accordance with the current regulations. If the reason for the refusal was the poor condition of the pipes (it is not very visible in the photo), report the threat and let the cooperative work. Any "guerrilla" action in shortening the pipe is a lottery and asking for trouble. One specialist will succeed, and another the family cries along with half the block. No kidding with gas.

KrzychKedzier wrote:

Personally, I want to do it after hours, but I will not issue a certificate that everything is ok.

If you don't want to have problems with the prosecutor's office, skip the modifications on your own or that employee.
According to the law, such a conversion of a gas installation requires a new installation design, made by a person who has building qualifications to design such installations. But you have to go through the entire procedure: obtaining the conditions in the gas plant, chimney sweep's opinion, design, building permit, construction logbook, supervision (manager), the work may be performed by a person with appropriate qualification certificates under the supervision of the site manager, tightness tests certified by an appropriate protocol, chimney inspection , notification of construction completion.

Besides, gentlemen, if you advise, write the truth.
First of all, the installations do not need to be welded inside the building. They can also be twisted. Copper can be made by brazing or crimped with special couplings. But these couplings have some limitations and cannot be used in all buildings. Due to the so-called fire resistance class may be used only in buildings with a height not exceeding 12 m.
In addition, there are also a lot of requirements that must be met, e.g. maintaining appropriate distances from the gas meter, other installations, pipe routing, the use of casing pipes, adequate ventilation, which must be located at an appropriate height and distance from the ceiling, appropriate distance between shut-off valves and devices etc.
There is a lot of it, and if only for this reason, it is better to entrust the matter to the designer, because he takes full responsibility for legal compliance.

brofran wrote:

KrzychKedzier wrote:

and how to cut a steel pipe without screwing on the valve?

Would you like to deal with the prosecutor?
Few tenement houses have been blew up recently ..

palmus wrote:

on a living organism unscrewed an inch pipe under the gas

...
It succeeded, but it is not a professional, but a kamikaze.

I know I can't, I would even try. I appealed to someone else's reply.

Plumpi wrote:

First of all, the installations do not need to be welded inside the building.

Can you explain why?
As far as I know, new steel pipes have to be welded for a long time.

brofran wrote:

It succeeded, but it is not a professional, but a kamikaze.

It WAS a professional. I saw such a job and the gas engineer explained it simply - if the gas only escaped there, it would not touch the pipe with anything else, because the mixture being formed is highly explosive. On the other hand, if the gas escapes with a stream, quite a long time has to pass before the formation of an explosive mixture IN THE WHOLE room - that is its time to act. With a strong stream of gas, ignition is possible at most, but there was an asbestos blanket and a snow extinguisher prepared for it. The worst is a small gas leak or a prolonged leak, because then an explosive mixture will form.
When it comes to changes to the gas installation - recently my son in a new inhabited cottage wanted to remove the gas pipe from the kitchen - he has an induction cooker that does not need gas. It turned out that you can LEGALLY do this only by ordering the entire gas installation project in the house (from the connection at the street) FROM THE NEW and going through the entire testing and approval procedure, although physically it would only involve cutting off and plugging the pipe. Taking into account the cost and time, the pipe in the kitchen remained.

S..K wrote:

We have a lot of bureaucracy, and each cooker is connected by means of other components according to fantasy, the resources of the installer's box. The PRL remains at a high level.

You see, because in the UK it is done by professionals, and in Poland who wants to know it or not.
Let me give you a simple example. I made the central heating installation, the boiler installation and the gas installation in the family. Of course, I had unlimited gas operation and supervision certificates. The installation was carried out in accordance with the design. I finished the job, made a leak test, issued a report, and commissioned the boiler. The boiler was installed in the bathroom, as it was an apartment in a tenement house.
After 2 or 3 weeks, my cousin calls me that he has been stinking of gas for some time. I pulled up and my hair bristled. It turned out that the installation was corrected after me by a "specialist for everything", who did plasterboard, tiles, painting, etc.
All the installation I made on the top, he reworked and buried under the slabs.
He not only buried the entire installation, but also damaged gas compression fittings (copper installation with pressed fittings). It just twisted so that the clamped fittings would just turn. In addition, he removed the casing pipes and sealed the copper pipes with gypsum glue. As the installed 3/4 "gas valve did not fit under the bodywork, he replaced it with an old 1/2" valve with a screw connection, but water. In addition, he has not noticed yet that he has lost the O-ring from the valve screw connection. He twisted the dismantled part of the gas installation with threaded sections of seamed galvanized steel pipes.
The gas was leaking for days, filling the empty space between the tiles and the wall. Because the walls were very crooked, the plasterboard was in some places even 10cm away from the wall, creating a large space for gas. Miraculously, the tenement house did not explode.
Instead of repentance, I heard from him "wowh .... what it all looked like on the surface".

Added after 3 [minutes]:

misiek1111 wrote:

As far as I know, new steel pipes have to be welded for a long time.

Instead of being misleading, I recommend that you read the regulation:
http://prawo.sejm.gov.pl/isap.nsf/DocDetails.xsp?id=WDU20020750690

zworys wrote:

It turned out that LEGALLY ...

Well, that's how the Building Law states. I will add to # 16 that the site manager must have the appropriate GAS building qualifications. Finding one to make a small brawl at home is practically impossible.

misiek1111 wrote:

zworys wrote:

It turned out that LEGALLY ...

Well, that's how the Building Law states. I will add to # 16 that the construction manager must have the appropriate GAS building qualifications. Finding one to make a small brawl at home is practically impossible.

No kidding. Most of the designers of gas installations are also authorized to direct such works. I know a few of these.

Of course there are designers and building managers. with permissions, only a rare person who wants to take on a small mess in the form of alterations - that's what I had to share.

Plumpi wrote:

Instead of being misleading, I recommend that you read the regulation:

I'm not misleading, I'm just asking. I don't know myself that much. And the regulation says:

Quote:

§ 164. 2. Installation wires are allowed
gas through living quarters, provided
use of compatible copper pipes
with the Polish Standard for copper pipes for gas, combined
by brazing or steel pipes
seamless and welded steel pipes,
in accordance with the Polish Standard for line pipes,
joined by welding.

The provision indicated by you applies to the routing of pipes through living quarters . But to make this provision understandable, it should be read together with point 1

Quote:

§ 164.
1. Gas system lines should not be led through living quarters and rooms the manner of use of which may violate the technical condition of the system or
affect the operating parameters of the gas.

2. Installation cables are allowed
gas through living quarters, provided
use of compatible copper pipes
with the Polish Standard for copper pipes for gas, combined
by brazing or steel pipes
seamless and welded steel pipes,
compliant with the Polish Standard for line pipes,
joined by welding.

and definitions:

Quote:

§ 3. Whenever the regulation refers to:

9) apartment - it is understood as a complex of living and auxiliary rooms, with a separate entrance, separated by permanent building partitions, meeting the necessary conditions for permanent residence of people and running an independent household

11) living room - it is understood by
are rooms in flats, as well as bedrooms and living rooms in a collective residence building,

I have never encountered an installation led through living quarters in multi-family housing.
Even in old tenement houses, where there is no other option, the installations were always designed outside so that they did not pass through living quarters, but entered directly into the rooms with gas appliances.

What pipes and connections should be used "says":

Quote:

§ 163.

4. Gas installation pipes in single-family residential buildings, farm buildings and individual recreation, as well as in other buildings behind gas meters or branches leading to separate apartments or commercial premises should be made of pipes referred to in paragraph. 2, also connected with the use of threaded connections
or from copper pipes joined by brazing.

In addition to the above-mentioned provisions, there are also a number of standards that define the types of pipes and the methods of connecting them and the methods of routing.
Of course, if there is no other option and the installation will have to go through living quarters, steel pipes must be welded, and copper pipes connected with brazing, but such routing should be avoided.

Added after 15 [minutes]:

misiek1111 wrote:

Of course there are designers and building managers. with permissions, only a rare person who wants to take on a small mess in the form of alterations - that's what I had to share.

For the designerand a gas installation construction manager, a modification or a new installation means the same requirements, the same work and the same money.
It is worse with contractors, because it is too little profitable bastard.

OK, that is to be precise. In apartments, in single and multi-family buildings, the installation may be twisted, as long as it does not pass through rooms in apartments, as well as bedrooms and living rooms. Example: the installation enters an apartment in the hall, then passes through the toilet, bathroom and ends in the kitchen.

Otherwise, when the installation has to pass through e.g. a bedroom (this is my case), the entire installation in the apartment must be welded.
Now do I interpret it correctly?

misiek1111 wrote:

OK, that is to be precise. In apartments, in single and multi-family buildings, the installation may be twisted, as long as it does not pass through rooms in apartments, as well as bedrooms and living rooms. Example: the installation enters an apartment in the hall, then passes through the toilet, bathroom and ends in the kitchen.

Otherwise, when the installation has to pass through e.g. a bedroom (this is my case), the entire installation in the apartment must be welded.
Now do I interpret it correctly?

Welded only in the section passing through the living quarters. In other non-residential premises, it may be twisted.