Dual-function ovens, e.g. Termet ecocondens, reduced temperature setting

The instructions mention the possibility of setting the heating range of the central heating furnace in a standard way, i.e. a range of 40-80 degrees and a reduced range of 25-55 degrees. However, I have not found anywhere a description of how to set this reduced range? At an outdoor temperature of 10-20 and a high thermal capacity of the installation without an air sensor, this reduced setting is what interests me because 40 degrees is too warm, and turning off the stove heating or standby is too cold? Ideally, it would be set to 25-30 degrees and let it heat up a little from time to time, but how to do it?

@Leszek1313 in the boiler service menu, you must change the P08 parameter to '1', i.e. underfloor heating. Then you will get reduced temperatures. IIO-588-EC...S_GOLD.pdf Download (1.97 MB)

This involves the division into high-temperature heating circuits (radiators) and low-temperature heating circuits (floors). Heating the floor at 25 degrees makes sense, but radiators do not.

If you have two circuits at the same time (underfloor heating and radiators), you do not use two settings at the same time.

Either your main/only heating system is underfloor heating and you limit the temperature to 45-50 max, or you have an installation with mixers and quite small radiators (where underfloor heating can only be an addition), then you usually set more central heating (60-65 degrees) in winter) so you don't limit the settings.

In some boilers you change it in the service menu, in others there is, for example, a switch on the boiler strip (this is the case with me, MCR HOME)

Or in other words, with only underfloor heating you set low ranges, only with radiators, high setting ranges. In mixed variants, it depends on the installation.

kz61 wrote:

Heating the floor at 25 degrees makes sense, but radiators do not.

OK, a temperature of 25 degrees for radiators is unrealistic, but the range is up to 55 degrees, so it will be enough for about 0 degrees outside or a slight frost.
If he misses it, he will switch to the 40-80 range.
My old boiler has a range of 35-87 degrees, but due to the oversized boiler, maintaining 35 degrees is unrealistic for me.
But in a lower thermal range you can try to see what it will be like at 30, 35 degrees, etc.

Leszek1313 wrote:

Ideally, it would be set to 25-30 degrees and let it heat up a little from time to time, but how to do it?

you need to check in practice how your boiler will heat at e.g. 30 degrees, because it may turn off quickly before the water has time to reach the radiators.
You have to find a golden mean to achieve thermal comfort and at the same time the boiler does not have to work like crazy.
By the way, it's a pity that Termet doesn't offer the 35-80 range instead of the current 40-80. With radiators, 35 degrees in the transition period makes sense, because the radiators are slightly warm.

However, with a large installation capacity, the heating water temperature of 25-30 degrees is completely sufficient to maintain a room temperature of about 18-20 degrees and 5-10 degrees outside... Termet in some furnace instructions states how to set a lower range, in others only that there is such a "reduced" one, but without instructions ..? , and theoretically it should without the grace of service technicians? Of course, the air temperature sensor should give the same effect, but... why install a sensor that costs several hundred zlotys? How to set the appropriate temperature at the heating water return?

A radiator heats differently than an underfloor heating system, it's all about economy. Physics and some math. Sometimes you write studies on what a boiler should have to save money, and when manufacturers introduce something like that, it's bad because you don't like it. Or maybe just lack of knowledge?
[quote=By the way, it's a pity that Termet doesn't offer the 35-80 range instead of the current 40-80.[/quote]
But that's nonsense, have you thought about it for a long time? This is supposed to protect the floor from high temperatures! I saw a guy sweeping the tile grout with a spatula because he was experimenting with the temperature.

Leszek1313 wrote:

But with a large installation capacity

but no specific value has been given yet, so we don't know if big is really big.

kz61 wrote:

But that's nonsense, have you thought about it for a long time? This is supposed to protect the floor from high temperatures! I saw a guy sweeping the tile grout with a spatula because he was experimenting with the temperature.

If you didn't know, the 40-80 range is for radiators, so in this system it would be more universal to have the 35-80 range.
Where did I write about underfloor heating? You wanted to shine but you failed.
People also use the 25-55 range in Termet for radiators, and not only for underfloor heating, so before you start insulting someone, think about it, it really doesn't hurt.
The author of the thread did not mention what has underfloor heating or radiators.

kz61 wrote:

Physics and some math

I'm not an expert in boilers, but I'm comfortable with physics and mathematics, so I'd love to hear what you mean.
From what I know, the flow of thermal energy is approximately directly proportional to the temperature difference, so the colder the returning water, the more efficient the collection of thermal energy generated by combustion. Moreover, assuming constant external conditions (constant losses), the lower the radiator temperature, the smaller the temperature amplitudes in the room (reducing the radiator temperature and extending the heating periods until equilibrium is achieved, i.e. constant temperature and continuous flow). Additionally, the lower the radiator temperature, the smaller the temperature gradient in the room.
All of the above, in my opinion, supports minimizing the radiator temperature in order to maximize comfort.
Possible negative issues that I can see are: higher power consumption for the pump (not noticeable in my case), reduced furnace life due to higher stresses (but probably not with gas, maybe coal)

Added after 12 [minutes]:

and greater inertia of the entire heating system, it warms up especially slowly (as long as a constant temperature is maintained, this aspect is also unnoticeable).
And so, empirically: for years, my radiators have not even come close to 40 degrees Celsius, they are usually just warm at most, never so hot that you can't hold your hand (in case of severe frosts, I raise the return temperature a bit). Effect: the comfort of a regular temperature in the room, almost like in a floor room, there is no need for a controller (I adjust individual rooms with sensors on the radiator). Negatives: only what I wrote above does not occur in my situation.

Also kz61 I will be happy to read your analysis from a physical and mathematical perspective.

Coming back to the topic, I also don't understand termet and their approach to temperature ranges, not to mention the mess in the instructions. All the more so because in the case of condensing furnaces, the highest economic profit is said to be at low temperatures in the circulation.

tobiaszu wrote:

All of the above, in my opinion, supports minimizing the radiator temperature in order to maximize comfort.

In general, I also agree with you that lower temperature means better comfort.
But it should also be noted that panel radiators heat by radiation and convection.
For convection to work effectively, there must be an appropriate temperature difference, so we cannot lower the boiler water temperature indefinitely, because the heating effect of the radiator will be negligible, and the available minimum power of the boilers is quite high, because the lowest power known to me is 1.9kW for boiler water 50 /30, so ultimately the radiator will have too small a surface to work sensibly with our boiler.
In the case of radiators, I would assume that 35 degrees makes sense, possibly 30, but lower temperatures for radiators do not make sense to me.

In my case, after turning on the burner, the boiler raised the water temperature from 23 to 34 degrees within 30 seconds, only after a while the temperature started to drop a little, so it took about 4 minutes to reach 35 degrees. During this time, the water flows to the furthest radiator for about 2 minutes, so there are another 2 minutes left for the water to flow through the radiator, so the radiator will not even have time to heat up properly, because it is type 22, 60 cm high and 2 m long, and the boiler must already be warmed up. turn off.
Yes, my boiler has a minimum power of approx. 9.5 kW, and Termet has a minimum power of 3.0 kW according to the instructions, i.e. 3x less, so in theory the burner could work 3x longer, i.e. 12 minutes before the boiler water reaches 35 degrees, so the radiator would have time to better heating, so its effectiveness would be better than during the current 4 minutes.
Lower boiler water temperatures would mean shorter heating time, so a worse effect of thermal comfort, at least in my case, when I have an uninsulated building and some rooms cool down relatively quickly compared to an insulated building.

tobiaszu wrote:

Also kz61 I will be happy to read your analysis from a physical and mathematical perspective.

Apart from insulting others, my friend kz61 is not willing to discuss sensible arguments, he says something and then stays silent, pretending that he was right, because if the thread disappears into the depths of Elektroda, no one will notice his posts of questionable substantive value.

In total, Magister 123 was the only one who presented instructions on changing the temperature range, or rather the setting from O to 1, for underfloor heating, but this applies to gold furnaces, and this is a silver model, and these do not have such a simple option, only service!? or air sensor?.
I wouldn't be afraid that the stove would turn off before the heat reaches the radiators, but it won't turn off unless the 25 degrees return from them? and in this case it takes longer because there is a lot of water in the installation... and that's what I want... for it to turn off then...

@Leszek1313 check this manual, more specifically section 5.6 on page 18. Parameter P02.

Leszek1313 wrote:

In total, Magister 123 was the only one who presented instructions on changing the temperature range, or rather the setting from O to 1, for underfloor heating, but this applies to gold furnaces, and this is a silver model, and these do not have such a simple option, only service!?

In the case of the Silver model, according to the instructions from 2016, you set the reduced range with the P02 code, not P08.
Under the P08 code, you have a temperature increase limitation in the range of 0-10 minutes (factory setting: 1 minute).
You didn't specify what type of boiler you have, and then you didn't correct anything, so almost everyone thought that your problem was solved.
According to the instructions, the boiler has 6 buttons marked K1-K6 and ...

Quote:

To activate the programming mode, press the K4 and K6 buttons simultaneously and hold them for about 3 seconds until
time until a flashing parameter number appears on the display. Use the K5 and K6 buttons to select the desired number
parameter.

Then press the K3 button. The value of the selected parameter, ready to be changed, will appear on the display. Behind
using the K5 and K6 buttons you can set a new parameter value. Saving the changed value and returning to selection no
parameter will be displayed after pressing the K3 button. The programming mode is ended by pressing the K4 button.

Added after 2 [minutes]:

Magister_123 uploaded the manual from 2016. I don't know if they are newer, because I don't plan Termet as a successor to my current boiler, among others. for these problems with service manuals.

Hello. I have a problem with this temperature range. I had it set to 40-80'C, I changed parameter 8 to 1 (underfloor heating) and the range changed to 25-55. When I returned to the value 0 (traditional heating), the range changed to 40-55'C. How to get back to the 40-80'C range? My boiler is Gold plus 25 1F

Check P29=80

Yes. It was set to 55. Thanks!

Hello,
I have a question about this P02. I have a new Termet ecd stove at home. silver two-function - the installer made the settings with an exhaust gas analyzer, he knew that I only had underfloor heating at home...
I asked him whether I could reduce the temperature below 40 C - I received the answer that the stove was set correctly according to the exhaust gas analyzer and this was the temperature range.

And here's my question: P02 changes something in the furnace? Does it mean that the boiler mixes something differently? Could it be just as well not to have this parameter 0 or 1, just to make it easier for the underfloor installers not to overheat the floor????

The installer does not understand what the supply temperature has to do with the regulation of the combustion process using an analyzer.
Parameter P02 allows you to reduce the supply temperature to 25 * and protects underfloor heating against too high temperatures, so you should set it to a reduced temperature.
Just for information, you should not touch the parameters P04iP06 cannot be lower than the lower one and P05iP07 cannot be higher than the higher one (I know, a bit crazy).

piciak17 wrote:

And here's my question: P02 changes something in the furnace? Does it mean that the boiler mixes something differently?

Lowering the temperature range doesn't really change anything, but the fact that you have the option to set the boiler to e.g. 25 degrees doesn't mean that you'll be able to get that much.
What the operating temperature will be depends largely on your installation.
In theory, the boiler has a minimum power of 3kW, but if you set e.g. 25 degrees, it may turn out that the boiler will reach 25 degrees within the first seconds of operation and the burner will turn off. You must have adequate water flow through the boiler so that the water in the boiler does not overheat and, as a result, the burner does not turn off.
In the lowered range you have a maximum of 55 degrees, so it will be enough even for radiators if someone has them properly oversized.

piciak17 wrote:

I ONLY have floor heating at home

in such a system, you should ONLY use the lowered range, because you do not have radiators that would need more than 55 degrees to heat effectively in frosty conditions.

Thank you very much for your answers.

So feel free to change the temperature settings to reduced ones. Remember to avoid "overclocking the furnace"

And I have one more question for my colleagues. I have pumps and water mixers in the manifolds. For now I have them set to max. Can I reduce the temperature at will and the stove will heat a small water circuit? Does this mean that when the water mixer valve closes, does it harm the boiler pump?

Yes, you can set it to reduced.
These mixing systems are unnecessary for your boiler and may cause increased gas consumption. Maybe take photos of the installation or make a diagram.
This is a new installation or a residue from an old high-temperature boiler.

I have two identical manifolds with a pump and a mixer (ground floor and first floor). In the future, I plan to control some circuits on the distributor.
I don't know how the supply and return are divided into two distributors.

Or maybe it's best to modify these distributors and bake with your own pump? After all, 100 m is not much and the developer went crazy here

Thanks in advance for your suggestions

Take an even clearer photo of the installation near the boiler and measure the diameter of the pipes from the boiler to the distribution point and at the distributors themselves and write what kind of pipes they are (material: copper, Pex, pp).
The solution you write about would be the best. And additional control of individual circuits is, for me, a triumph of form over substance.

piciak17 wrote:

After all, 100 m is not enough

In theory, the pump built into the boiler should do the trick.
But the devil is in the details, so should doesn't mean it always has to.

piciak17 wrote:

In the future, I plan to control some circuits on the distributor.

Since it's a new building, I assume that you will need about 5kW for frosts of -20, so on average during the season you will need about 2.5kW, and Termet has a minimum power of 3.0kW.
How do you see the control of individual circuits in such a system if the boiler is clocked?

I'm doing myself a disservice by answering only now...

I forgot to measure the diameter...
Water from waterworks is smaller in diameter, and central heating pipes are larger in diameter.

I'm completely green on this topic and I'm seeing more and more



Separated into two dividers, it is probably an ordinary tee...

Are you able to locate this separation into individual manifolds, or is it available in the boiler room?
Unfortunately, I cannot read the diameter of the pipes from the photos, maybe take another photo to see the description of the pipe type and diameter.
If it were my installation, I would take the risk and throw away the entire mixing groups and connect the distributors directly to the boiler.

BUCKS wrote:

Under the P08 code, you have a temperature increase limitation in the range of 0-10 minutes (factory setting: 1 minute).

What does this parameter change in the operation of the boiler - what does it mean to limit the temperature increase in minutes?

Is there any information about other parameters that change the operation of the boiler?

@jaskul I don't know, in practice it is possible to change the parameters in the P08 code in the Silver model.
You need to change and see how the boiler operating characteristics will change.
I suspect that the higher the value, the smoother the boiler operation will be.
By assumption, the boiler wants to heat the water to the set level as quickly as possible, but the P08 parameter will slow down this process, which means, according to my logic, the boiler will work longer at lower power.
Each boiler has its own operating characteristics or operating algorithm.
In my Vaillant atmospheric boiler, the instructions did not describe anything, but by observing the operation of my boiler, I learned its characteristics because I noticed repeated patterns.
If there is something missing in the manual and you don't find information on the Internet, you have to observe how the boiler operation changes after changing a specific parameter. Of course, there are many other dependencies, so sometimes after the first attempt there is no chance of drawing correct conclusions, but if you don't try, you won't know.

Damn, it would be pointless if the manufacturer of the boiler and its software did not provide information on what causes a change in some setting parameter. I understand if the boiler was some invention imported from the other hemisphere, but it is a normal model from Polish distribution, so it is absurd. Of course, you can do it by trial and observation... but I can't believe that no Termet service technician has such knowledge because it would be downright ridiculous.