How do you prepare the electrical installation for automation in a 50m² flat?

Hello. I’m about to carry out a complete refurbishment of a newly purchased flat (M3, 50m²). I’ll probably be laying a whole new electrical installation (I don’t know what condition the cables are in, but they’re certainly over 20 years old). And this is where the opportunity arises to install (or simply lay the cables for) an automation system.

I know a bit about PLCs and automation in general, though more in theory than in practice.

My main request is for advice on what and how I should prepare, and which cables to ‘run’ so that I don’t later regret having done it one way rather than another, or find that something is missing.

1. First and foremost, how should I run the lighting and sockets? I’ll be honest, I don’t know much about this, but setting up some sort of mini automation system for this could be fun. Should I do it the traditional way (as a classic ‘handyman’ would do it), or, for example, run each cable to a spot where there might (perhaps) be a controller at some point? If I’m going to tinker with this, how and where can I possibly read up on it?
2. Window blinds. I’ve read that for this to work properly, a 4 x 1.5 mm² cable needs to be run to each one. I’ve read a bit about the solution using RCS modules on this website: http://sterowanierolet.pl/ It seems simple and reasonably sensible.
3. Heating. Is there any point at all in trying to control the heating (the block has central heating; one could possibly control the valve, i.e. the Danfoss)? I don’t think so?
4. Audio system. I wanted to run cables through the ceiling (a suspended ceiling, or a standard one if the room doesn’t have one) and fit ceiling-mounted speakers in the bathroom, kitchen and possibly the bedrooms. I’m just not quite sure yet how to control it later on, so that everything doesn’t play at once.
5. What sort of cable should I run to the spot where I might install an air-conditioning unit (above the window in the large room), so that it can be controlled from somewhere else and, for example, connected to a temperature sensor?
6. Obviously, an Ethernet installation, with a connection to each room and to the router – I don’t think there’s much to it, is there?

And now the question is: are there any other cheap and cool systems that could be adapted to what is, after all, a small flat? Are there any other cables I could run somewhere, just in case?

I’d also like to add that, naturally, I’d like to sort all this out at the lowest possible cost.

Read about Moeller’s Xcomfort.

Re. 1: I suppose that, when it comes to building automation, the best approach would be to run each lighting circuit separately to the distribution board using YDY 3x1.5mm² cable (lighting point → distribution board) and use a YDY 2x1 cable from the switches for control purposes. For the switches themselves, use so-called ‘bell-type’ switches. In the distribution board, depending on the control method, you have two options: the switch sends a trigger signal to the controller, which then decides how, when, for how long, etc., to switch on the lighting point in question. Or, if you decide you don’t need this type of control, you connect the switch so that it activates a contactor to switch on the lighting point.

Re. 3. It certainly makes sense, but it’s quite a faff. In my opinion, for this to work properly, you’ll need to fit the radiators in each room with 0–10V control valves. Don’t forget the sensors in every room. And you can create your ideal heating scenarios. This often translates into lower heat consumption as well.

Have you all had a chance to think about your answers? In your opinion, is frytek1986 capable of carrying out such an installation in accordance with standards and safety regulations? Please refer to point 12 of the forum rules.

Hello. From the post mentioned above, it is clear that the author of the thread has overlooked one thing – power consumption. Assuming that all devices will be switched on, they will still draw power even when they are not in use. This has already been discussed in previous threads; it is ONLY on low-voltage controllers that it makes sense to install, for example, lighting control. The air conditioning has a remote control, so that’s sorted; the internet’s fine, and the audio system too, but that’s not the topic here. Blinds are fine, but they’re simple up-and-down operations; here, the controller can regulate automatic opening and closing (via relays). Heating control is fine, but standard thermostats are maintenance-free, and if there’s no power, you won’t be able to activate the electric valve. The 230V socket installation is standard, as it may turn out that a 230V ‘driver’ won’t be able to cope with a momentary surge in current from, say, a space heater. Generally speaking, a basic smart home setup is possible – for example, opening a door to turn on the light – but does it make sense with a property of this size?
Best regards

mobydex wrote:

Hello. From the post above, it’s clear that the author of the thread hasn’t taken one thing into account – power consumption. Assuming that all the devices are switched on, they will still draw power even when they aren’t in use.

YYyy... but I don’t understand why? Is it because the contactors need to be held open? Nothing could be simpler; bistable, pulse-controlled contactors will suffice. In fact, that’s exactly what you should use, so that, for example, a power cut doesn’t cause the light to stay off permanently, but rather so that it switches back on once the power returns.

It is more a question of the power consumption of the controller and all the equipment (sensors, buttons, other transducers). Whilst buttons can be ‘open-circuit’ and only respond when pressed, the whole range of sensors and controllers generally requires a constant power supply.

Furthermore, ‘alarm’ systems or those whose operation is critical should operate on an inverted logic, where ‘0’ means applying voltage/current and ‘1’ means cutting it off or reducing it to a minimum. In such a system, if something or someone breaks the circuit, the device will activate – for example, by triggering an alarm, lowering the shutters, switching off the heating, etc. – so that, if the user is not at home, nothing untoward happens, for example, due to the heating not being switched off or the blinds not being lowered for the night, etc.

Generally, I recommend using current-based controls and sensors rather than voltage-based ones – for longer wired runs, current loops are more reliable and you can see immediately that a fault has occurred (current below 4 mA = broken wire / disconnected device).

As for the comments retrofood I believe that the advice contained here is not harmful – and as for the competence of the person asking for advice, he should realise for himself that electrical installations MUST NOT be carried out without the relevant knowledge – particularly knowledge regarding safety measures and the correct connections used in this type of installation. If the person in question does not possess this knowledge, he should ask someone who does for help – and limit himself, for example, to sketching out on a piece of paper how he envisages it – an electrician will then assess it and make the necessary corrections.

igon wrote:

As for the post retrofood I believe that the advice contained here is not harmful – and as for the ability of the person asking for advice, he should realise for himself that electrical installations SHOULD NOT be carried out without the relevant knowledge – particularly knowledge regarding safety measures and the correct connections used in this type of installation. If the person in question does not possess this knowledge, he should ask someone who does for help – and limit himself, for example, to sketching out on a piece of paper how he envisages it – an electrician will then assess it and make the necessary corrections.

That’s exactly what I mean – sketching out for the electrician what needs to be done and how, so that it’s done properly. I simply want to be in control of the whole thing, and not regret later that I didn’t run a cable somewhere. I think I’ll do without controllers and the like, though (I won’t be running a cable from every point to the ‘cabinet’) because that seems a bit like style over substance. I’m now thinking about some sensible, reasonably cheap wireless lighting system. I’d like it to be possible to control it normally (e.g. with a ‘bell’ button) and via a radio remote control (I’d love to have one remote for everything – i.e. the home cinema – and for the lighting as well). What solutions would you recommend?

You have a relatively small flat, so you could, for example, run twisted-pair cable to each light fitting or socket, along with the electrical wiring. To control the relay, you only need two wires: one for the negative terminal and the other for the positive terminal, supplied from the controller (I’m talking about DC voltage as this is probably the most controller-friendly option) – it depends on what you want to connect to the relay and if you don’t want to use a ‘kobyła’ or maintain one, you can use a small relay to control a larger relay, which in turn will control a higher-power installation.

Alternatively, you could do something else – if you have a single-phase installation, run a 4-core cable instead of a 3-core one – that way, you’ll have one ‘free’ control core at every load point – the problem is that you’ll then have to use the neutral (N) line, so it’s best to use phase voltage for control. This solution has its ‘advantage’ – by controlling with phase voltage, you can install a high-power relay straight away, so you don’t have to mess about with circuits involving two or more relays.

If you’ve got plenty of money, there are commercial systems such as KNX – full automation of lights, blinds, radiators, etc. – but this isn’t a cheap solution, and given the size of your property, it would be a case of substance over style, and a very significant one at that.

As for the controllers, you can build one yourself or commission someone to make a microcontroller-based controller – admittedly, it won’t be a smart-looking industrial controller, but it’ll easily cost half the price (especially if you assemble it yourself) and come with the security features etc. that you want – fully tailored to your needs

remik_l wrote:

Read about Moeller’s Xcomfort.

I found something like this in their range:

http://www.xcomfort.pl/system4.php


Nice. I like the idea – old-school ‘traditional’ cable routing + something like this in junction boxes. It’s fine. It’s just that this little gem costs 180 zł each. Does anyone know of a (much) cheaper alternative?

Have a look at other manufacturers, such as Legrand.

There’s also Z-Wave. You can find it at www.zhouse.pl

I’ve done some reading and had a look around, and I’ve come up with a fairly good solution; I’m writing this in case it might be useful to someone else.

I’m planning to buy these Zamela receivers:

http://www.zamel.pl/pl,223,3715,radiowy_odbiornik_dopuszkowy_2kanalowy_rop02.html

+ a remote control to go with them. Each receiver costs about 80 zł, so they’re not exactly cheap, but it’s not 300 zł like with the Muller ones. There’s also a single-channel version, but you can’t connect a normal, classic button to it.

If anyone knows of an even cheaper solution, please let me know.

It all depends on what you need and what you want.

For example, I occasionally install simple automated lighting and plumbing systems for my clients, using programmable logic controllers in conjunction with alarm systems.
The way it works is that a programmable logic controller is installed in the distribution board. Connected to the controller’s inputs are all the lighting switches, signals from motion detectors via a special relay output card – which communicates digitally with the alarm control panel – as well as additional switches and a multi-channel radio controller.
The controller’s outputs are connected to the lighting circuits and actuators such as relays, valve actuators, etc.
The controller handles all logical functions, timing functions, scene memory, etc.
The whole system is designed to provide us with convenience, but above all to save energy and ensure protection against burglars and natural disasters.

Radio control is really... cool, internet control is really... cool, but that’s not automation. These are just unnecessary bells and whistles, typical gadgets you can show off to friends and family.
However, these kinds of gadgets force you to remember how to operate them and very quickly put you off using them, whilst causing problems for users.

A good home automation system should just do its job and not involve the household too much – it should be ‘transparent’ to the user.
A ‘transparent’ automation system is one that does its job in such a way that the user doesn’t have to think about what the system is doing or how it works.

Right, but what can be automated in a house or flat?
If you can’t answer that question, or if your answer is ‘control via the internet’, then one of the following two conclusions applies:
1. You don’t need any automation.
2. You haven’t met an electrician or home automation specialist who has anything to offer you.

Let’s start with the alarm system – what can it do and what can it be used for, specifically motion detectors?
Motion detectors, as the name suggests, are designed to detect movement.
But how can you make use of this?
You have a hall, a bathroom, a toilet, a kitchen, and rooms where people are present either constantly or from time to time. They often forget to switch off or dim the lights. And this is where the first function comes in – automatically dimming the lights for those forgetful people who’ve left the lights on. Of course, you could use separate motion detectors with built-in timers, but the installation starts to get a bit complex, and you have to remember to plan every element of the system before fitting it. Upon analysis, it turns out that the best approach is to run a separate cable for each lighting point and each switch directly from a single junction box, in which all the electronics will be housed.
Of course, everything could be implemented using separate bistable relays, but it would be cheaper and better to use a programmable controller, which offers us a great deal of flexibility.
What else can be automated?
Let’s ask ourselves how much power devices consume in so-called ‘standby’ mode? 5W here, 10W there, 15W over there – in total, this can amount to hundreds of watts, which, whilst we’re away from home, unnecessarily ‘gulp down’ electricity and cost us money. Why not simply switch them off whilst we’re away from home? Of course we can – and it’s incredibly simple. We need to separate the circuits for the sockets that can be switched off whilst we’re away from home, as well as whilst we’re asleep. You just need to bear in mind that the fridge or the boiler controller has to run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
But why should we limit ourselves solely to electrical appliances?
It’s also a good idea for the water supply to be automatically shut off whilst we’re away. Unfortunately, more and more washbasin and kitchen sink taps are connected with flimsy Chinese rubber hoses, which are prone to bursting and flooding the flat or even the whole house. Here, too, we’ll install water and gas shut-off valves to cut off these utilities whilst we’re away from home or asleep. Of course, we’re excluding the gas boiler here, as it needs to keep running even when we’re away.
To implement these functions, we’ll need two signals: the first is a control signal from the alarm control panel, which will switch off these circuits when the alarm is armed, and the second is a signal indicating that we’re already asleep – but more on that signal later, as we need to analyse how to control the lighting for the relevant periods: absence during the day, absence in the evening and at night, presence during the day, presence in the evening and presence at night. ‘Presence at night’ refers to the period when we are at home and fast asleep.
Another feature is switching on the lighting wherever we happen to be at any given moment, e.g. whilst walking down the corridor, entering the bathroom, etc.
So we control not only switching the lighting off, but also switching it on.
But how do we switch the lights on?
After all, we don’t need lighting during the day; in the evening we need good lighting, and at night we need soft ‘navigation’ lighting, which allows us to move from the bedroom to the loo or the kitchen with a light that won’t hurt our eyes or wake everyone else in the house.
And this brings us to the types of lighting whilst we’re at home:
During the day – the lighting should not switch on.
In the evening – full lighting should switch on and off according to our preferred setting: one, two, three bulbs, and so on.
At night – the so-called ‘navigation’ lighting should be switched on and off, i.e. soft ambient lighting, preferably LED or wall lamps.
When we are away from home during the day, the lighting should not switch on at all. In the evening and at night, however, a ‘presence simulation’ can be activated – lighting that makes it appear as though the household is at home.
If there are blinds or shutters, the system can also control them. They should close at dusk and open at dawn.
This is where an external light sensor comes in handy; it also sends a signal to the controller, forcing the lighting automation to switch off during the day in rooms where natural light provides sufficient illumination.
Now, the question of lighting switches.
We use monostable (bell-type) or bistable (lighting, lamp switch, etc.) switches.
These switches are designed to operate as if independently of the automation system – that is, to allow the user to switch a particular light on or off at any time, change the lighting arrangement, and offer something not found in traditional installations, namely the ability to switch off all the lights in a given room and throughout the whole house. To put it simply, instead of running around checking whether we’ve left any lights on somewhere, we can simply switch off all the lights in the house with a single switch.
For example, I do this by fitting two two-way switches in every room. The first one is used to switch the lighting on or off in the configuration we last used. The second switch changes the lighting arrangement – that is, what’s supposed to be on (the number of bulbs, the chandelier, wall lights or LED lighting)..
If the lights are off and you press this switch, the last lighting scene used will be activated. Pressing the switch again will change this scene.
Holding down the first switch for longer than 5 seconds will switch off the lighting throughout the house, whilst holding switch 2 for 5 seconds will set the lighting to night mode, meaning that when motion detectors are triggered, the night-time corridor lighting (LEDs or wall lights) will switch on.
Another function provided by the system is switching on the lighting in the event of a fire and disconnecting all sockets.
Another function is the smart control of DHW circulation pumps, which are activated only when we enter the bathroom or kitchen.
Of course, the entire system can be further expanded with a multi-channel radio receiver, which can be connected in parallel to the lighting switches, enabling control of the lighting and appliances, and, using small remote controls, allowing the front door to the block of flats or the gate to be opened.
Another feature is the ability to forward intercom calls to a mobile phone whilst the household is away, which is useful for throwing off potential burglars who are watching the flat before a break-in.
The system analyses the intervals between successive activations of motion detectors to determine whether to activate evening or night-time lighting, whilst also selecting appropriate lighting fade-out times – shorter for night-time lighting and longer for evening lighting – as well as the transition time from evening to night-time lighting. In the case of night-time lighting, it is very important that the motion detector does not detect movement from people lying in bed, but should respond to movement from a person standing by the bed.

To implement these functions, it is worth considering the layout of the electrical, alarm and automation installations, running the appropriate cables from the junction box to the locations where the actuators will be fitted.

Finally.
Typical Smart Home systems offer a greater number of bells and whistles, the vast majority of which are useless and are simply typical gadgets that most installers are unable to utilise anyway, and yet the whole system costs 10 to 20 times more than the system I described earlier.

I don’t know if you realise that putting your methods into practice ends up wrecking half the house. Add the cost of the repairs to your marvellous system and it’ll end up costing you twice as much. Besides, if I want to install a smart home system, it just so happens that I know what I need. If I’m constantly forgetting to switch off the lights behind me, the system does it for me by detecting my absence from the room; if my children are always losing their house keys, I’ll fit a code-operated door lock; if I have fish at home that need a specific amount of light, I won’t be running back and forth to switch the lamp on. When I leave the house, I want the windows to close in the event of rain or a storm, so I don’t have to worry about it. Besides, have a look at the price lists and you’ll see that you can have these things installed without draining your bank account… These aren’t just gimmicks; they’re absolutely useful things. Besides, why would I need a million and two hundred switches and remote controls when I can have just one that controls 45 devices? If one isn’t enough for me (say, if there are seven of us living in one house, I can have as many remotes as I like) As for the lighting, with just two buttons on the remote mentioned above, I can switch the lights in the house to make me feel happy. I sometimes read at night with the lights on full, which gives me comfort and convenience. I want to control the lighting exactly as I like. A wireless system gives me all that, so I don’t know why you’re pushing your point of view so hard. Best regards

slodo wrote:

I don’t know if you realise that putting your methods into practice ends up wrecking half the house. Add the cost of the renovation to your marvellous system and it’ll end up costing you twice as much.

Systems of this type, with a central controller, are usually installed when building a new house or carrying out a major refurbishment.
Note that in this thread, the author is specifically thinking about replacing the entire installation whilst carrying out a major refurbishment, and we’re not discussing tearing up your tiles or chipping away at your stucco here

slodo wrote:

Besides, if I want to install a smart home system, it just so happens that I know what I need. If I’m constantly forgetting to switch off the lights behind me, the system does it for me by detecting my absence from the room; if my children are always losing their house keys, I’ll fit a code-operated door lock; if I have fish at home that need a specific amount of light, I won’t be running back and forth to switch the lamp on. When I leave the house, I want the windows to close in the event of rain or a storm, so I don’t have to worry about it. Besides, have a look at the price lists and you’ll see that you can install these things without draining your bank account… These aren’t just gimmicks, but things that are extremely useful. Besides, why would I need a million and two hundred switches and remote controls when I can have just one that controls 45 devices? If one isn’t enough for me (say, if there are seven of us living in one house, I can have as many remotes as I like). As for the lighting, with just two buttons on the remote mentioned above, I can switch the lights in the house to make me feel comfortable. I sometimes read at night with the lights on full, which gives me comfort and convenience. I want to control the lighting exactly as I like. A wireless system gives me all of that, so I don’t know why you’re pushing your opinion so hard. Best regards

I think you’re not reading carefully, because you have exactly the same functionality as me, only it’s several times more expensive.
As for needs, you have to define them beforehand. Unfortunately, without knowing what smart home systems are capable of, many people can’t even define them. Note also that the author is writing about ‘basic automation’, i.e. the most essential functions. Of course, everyone may have slightly different needs and expectations. You need your windows to close automatically whilst you’re away, whereas others simply close them before leaving their house or flat.
Besides, do you control all your lighting exclusively with a remote control?
Don’t you have any wall-mounted switches fitted?
It might work well for you, but what about your parents, grandparents or guests who come to visit your home? Are you going to spend the first week teaching them how to use the remote controls?
As for the number of remote controls, I was writing about a multi-channel receiver that supports multi-channel remotes controlling multiple devices and circuits – exactly as in your case – as well as individual remotes carried on your key ring to open the gate or door bolt.
After all, you can treat yourself to the fancy stuff and fit fingerprint-activated locks on your doors, just like one of my clients has done. It’s just a question of how deep your pockets are.
If your wallet is thick enough, I’ve got company solutions for you too, which I can easily install and programme for you – without having to chisel into the walls, of course. It’s just that we can discuss this in another thread, as the circumstances are slightly different there..

Bear in mind, too, that I can upgrade my system with your components at any time. You, on the other hand, cannot use my system.

If a power surge from the mains reaches your smart home, you’ll end up drawing water with a bucket.

Most investors install dodgy gadgets, whilst skimping on a proper system to protect their electrical installations and appliances from the effects of power surges caused by lightning strikes.

jotko wrote:

If a power surge from the mains hits your smart home, you’ll end up drawing water with a bucket.

Most investors install gimmicky solutions, whilst skimping on a proper system to protect their electrical installations and appliances from the effects of power surges caused by lightning strikes.

I don’t see any problems there, just another way to make a profit
You need to fit a new controller, and perhaps some surge protection as well
I sell each customer what they can afford. I explain what the surge protection is for and how much it costs, but I’m not going to force people to buy it just to make them happy.
If a customer definitely doesn’t want it, that’s their business.
Besides, let’s not get carried away with these power surges either, because many houses have been standing for decades without any surge protection, and despite their old wiring, nothing has ever been damaged by power surges.

Quote:

…because many houses have stood for decades without any protective measures, and despite their old wiring, nothing has ever been damaged by power surges.

That is indeed a valid point...

Quote:

I think you’re not reading carefully enough, because you’ve got exactly the same functionality as me, only it’s several times more expensive.

Hehe, my friend is exaggerating a bit. As for functionality, you’re not able to achieve as much as a smart home system. You’re offering very basic functions that can be achieved using components from Castorama for much less money than your solution. If that’s enough for someone, then fine – they don’t need an IB system. However, it’s a long way from being a proper system. That said, I do like how thoroughly you’ve described it.
As for the price, that’s also nicely covered here. It all looks great until it comes to installation and it turns out you need to buy additional actuator modules – which cost a fortune in your solutions – and then pay you for programming and configuration.

Max25 wrote:

Quote:

I think you’re not reading carefully, because you’ve got exactly the same functionality as me, only it’s several times more expensive.

Hehe, my friend is exaggerating a bit. As for functionality, you’re not able to achieve as much as a smart home system. You’re offering very basic functions that can be achieved using components from Castorama for much less money than your solution. If that’s enough for someone, then fine – they don’t need an IB system. However, it’s a long way from being a proper system. That said, I do like how thoroughly you’ve described it.
As for the price, that’s also nicely covered here. It all looks great until it comes to installation and it turns out you need to buy additional actuator modules – which cost a fortune in your solutions – and pay you for programming and configuration.

Of course, solutions of this type have less functionality than typical ID systems.
As for putting a system together from components bought at Castorama, yes, of course it’s possible to put it together, but firstly, the cost of such a system will be many times higher, and secondly, it lacks the flexibility of a programmable controller, where I’m limited only by my imagination.
As for the costs of programming and configuration, I can assure you that these also apply to dedicated ID systems, and in the case of such systems they are higher, in line with the price of the system. With systems built using relays from Castorama, there’s the added cost of assembling and wiring more complex cabinets, not to mention the higher cost of the cabinets themselves, which have to house all those components.
I even recently had the chance to help a friend who’s an electrician, who was building all his circuits using bistable relays. He’d messed up several cabinets at a client’s premises, each filled with dozens of relays and a dozen or so power supplies. The bloke got stuck on a simple staircase lighting control function linked to a few motion detectors, and that’s when he asked me for help. Unfortunately, standard motion detectors for lights weren’t suitable, as they have too wide a horizontal field of view and, at the same time, too narrow a vertical one. We had to use curtain and corridor-type detectors instead.
The client was stunned when he saw that I’d replaced his entire second cabinet with a single controller, and that I’d made all the changes to the system’s operation without having to rewire a single cable in the cabinet, as the client’s requirements for how the lighting should behave had changed several times.

I’m not forcing anyone, nor am I trying to convince anyone of the superiority of my system over dedicated systems. I do both.
I would, however, point out that when installing an electrical system, it is possible to equip it with basic smart home functions designed for convenience and safety, at a cost only slightly higher than the cost of materials for the electrical installation itself in its most basic form.

I reckon you added that last paragraph just out of polite courtesy:) If you’re so knowledgeable about combining one thing with another, why not prove it and create your own perfect, universal system?

What does ‘your ideal system’ mean? Can such a thing even exist?
I’ve presented some low-cost solutions here that fulfil the most essential functions, and I’ve been criticised because the ID systems currently on the market have more bells and whistles. Some people want it cheap, others want lots of bells and whistles, yet the two don’t go hand in hand. As for knowledge, I have enough to build such a system from scratch myself, but I’m overwhelmed by the ridiculous regulations, which is why I’ve stopped manufacturing for sale. Besides, what’s the point of spending a fortune on certificates and testing when you can import individual components from China for next to nothing and focus solely on programming the system?
As it happens, I’ve had some bad experiences with friends. A friend of mine, a business owner, had to sell his company to pay a fine and court costs because of some trivial mistake – either an employee’s oversight or the deliberate removal by a competitor of a connector fitted to the cable of a lamp on display in the shop. On top of that, he was given a suspended sentence.
So, no thanks. I prefer ready-made components with China Export certificates

You weren’t criticised for proposing a different solution, but for comments like these:

Plumpi wrote:

That’s...Radio control is cool, bloody... internet control is cool, but that’s not automation. These are just unnecessary bells and whistles, typical gadgets you can show off to your mates and family.

It seems to me that you’re not familiar with either radio systems or internet control. By saying that it’s a useless gadget, you’re very much mistaken. Radio control means you don’t have to run cables or stick to a specific automation function. It saves you a lot of hassle when you want to add newly purchased devices, say, after three years of using the system. You avoid installation costs – all you need to do is replace a socket or a switch. And what about internet control? Exactly. In smart systems, unlike simple automation systems, it’s not just about showing off to your friends. A smart installation connects to weather servers to check forecasts, to astronomical servers to retrieve information on sunrise, sunset and moonrise and -set, and to your Google Calendar to check whether your plans have changed, and the list goes on. Based on this vast amount of information, it decides what to do. This eliminates the need to buy additional sensors and reduces the cost of the system, whilst ensuring your home runs as efficiently as possible.

Plumpi wrote:

To be able to implement such functions, it is worth considering how to carry out the electrical, alarm and automation installations, running the appropriate cables from the junction box to the locations where the actuators will be situated.

The radio control system you have just criticised eliminates this need. One might wonder how a problem might arise. Before moving into a newly built house, the user does not need to be aware of every possible situation that might arise. They can automate a process only once they realise it is inefficient and uneconomical. Example: one of the users of our system frequently went away on business trips for a few days. When his children started to grow up, problems arose with them coming home late whilst their father was away. So he added locks to the system, and the house would send him a message if a child came home too late. The problem, which the system was able to help solve, only arose after several years of use.

Plumpi wrote:

...Typical smart home systems offer a whole host of gimmicks, the vast majority of which are useless...

They do offer bells and whistles, but above all they provide more data and the ‘transparency’ options you mentioned. They ensure that more processes can be optimised for convenience, security and cost savings. Surely that’s useful?

However, to each their own. Every system has its own set of features, and I’m not criticising your alarm control panels, as for many people they may well be the solution that best meets their needs.

Max25 wrote:

It seems to me that you are not familiar with either radio systems or internet-based control.

And here I have to agree with you 100 per cent – it’s just your impression.

Max25 wrote:

By saying that this is a useless gadget, you are very much mistaken. Radio control means you don’t have to run cables or stick to a specific automation function. It saves you a lot of hassle when you want to add newly purchased devices, say, after three years of using the system. You avoid the cost of installation – all you need to do is replace a socket or a switch..

Of course, this is a major advantage, but please note that there is nothing stopping me from adding sensors or actuators to my system that communicate with my controller via radio, the mains supply, a wired bus system or even a fibre-optic bus.
So please do not write that I do not have this option, because that is not true.

Max25 wrote:

And what about control via the internet? Exactly. In smart systems, unlike simple automation systems, this isn’t just about showing off to friends. A smart installation connects to weather servers to check forecasts, to astronomical servers to retrieve information on sunrise, sunset and moonrise and -set, to your Google Calendar to check whether your plans have changed, and the list goes on.

For the vast majority of people, this is completely superfluous information and a typical case of information overload – information that can be obtained from the internet at any time if needed.
There’s also the other side of the coin – to make use of this sort of information, you still need a team of people to devise such functionality, configure the system, implement it and test it. If the user can take on this role themselves, that’s fine, but if a company needs to be brought in, that’s another expense. So please don’t talk about savings, because there aren’t any.

Max25 wrote:

Based on this vast amount of information, it decides what to do. This eliminates the need to buy additional sensors and makes the system cheaper, whilst ensuring your home runs as efficiently as possible.

I’m very sorry, but I feel as though I’m having a discussion with a typical salesperson or marketer.
What exactly are we talking about making cheaper? After all, to get this functionality, you’d have to fork out extra cash for special locks and a top ID system specialist to programme it. I don’t know how it works in your systems, but in some cases companies have even charged extra for additional software modules
Of course, competition is growing, so companies are ‘toning it down’ a bit, but for now, ID systems are primarily geared towards making a big profit.

Max25 wrote:

Before moving into a newly built house, a user doesn’t need to be aware of every possible situation that might arise. They can only automate a process once they realise it is inefficient and uneconomical. Example: one of our system’s users frequently went on business trips lasting several days. When the children started to grow up, problems arose with them coming home late whilst their father was away. So he added locks to the system, and the house would send him a message if a child came home too late.. The problem, which the system could have helped to solve, only arose after a few years of use

I carry out such minor jobs without any additional costs for equipment, and sometimes free of charge if I don’t have to leave the house to set up such a function for a customer
This is one of the simplest functions that can be implemented in an alarm control panel – notifying a specific telephone number of the time a family member enters or leaves the house, or arms or disarms the system; what’s more, this can be done remotely via a telephone line, without having to visit the customer. You had to install additional radio devices, whereas I use reed switches costing 5–15 zł each, which are fitted in the doors anyway for the alarm system.
The thing is, I’m a practitioner, not a marketer
So, as you can see, that’s no argument for me.

Max25 wrote:

They provide fancy features, but above all more data and the ‘transparency’ options you were talking about. They ensure that more processes can be optimised in terms of convenience, security and cost savings. Surely that’s useful?

I’ll put it this way:
When talking to clients, I describe the capabilities of various systems, and most of them end up saying, “What on earth do I need that for?”
Having the capability and having the need are two completely different matters.
In 99 per cent of cases, if clients don’t have a specific need now, they won’t need it in 3, 5 or 10 years’ time. The older people get, the less they care about such things.
Of the remaining 1 per cent – and I mean just 1 per cent – perhaps some might need to expand the system, but even then, these are usually trivial and simple functions which, in most cases, can be implemented in 5–10 minutes by adding a bit of code to the controller.
If someone needs a small, cheap and fuel-efficient car to commute to work in a congested town, I’m not going to try to sell them a Maybach, simply because they can afford it; that customer will either give up on the idea of a car altogether or go to a competitor who’ll sell them a Seicento.