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Proper Connection of Protective Cable and Neutral in Electrical Sockets: A Query

drypy 35924 23
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Treść została przetłumaczona polish » english Zobacz oryginalną wersję tematu
  • #1 9899579
    drypy
    Level 10  
    Hello.
    I'm doing a little renovation in my apartment and I'm also replacing the sockets.
    This is where my question arises, because I heard that when connecting a socket with a "pin", having a two-wire installation, the pin should be connected to ground. I read a bit about it on the internet and my opinions were divided.
    How does this really connect?
    It is better not to connect the pin at all or connect it to zero?
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  • #2 9899606
    Krzysztof Kamienski
    Level 43  
    However, it is best to call an Electrician with Permissions, because the matter is serious, and your post shows a complete lack of knowledge in the subject :cry: .
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  • #3 9899618
    drypy
    Level 10  
    Well, I just feel sorry for the money for an electrician who will connect two cables to me, I just don't know in what situation how to do it, the execution itself is not a problem.
  • #4 9899674
    TyPeczek
    Level 23  
    I would also advise grounding the N conductor. Sometimes there is residual voltage on it. You will touch the device with a more sensitive wet part of your body and feel a "brush", which is not a nice feeling.

    Moderated By Akrzy74:

    Harmful advice - warning. Congratulations.

  • #5 9899761
    Plumpi
    Heating systems specialist
    arturjakis wrote:
    As far as possible, the neutral protective conductor (PEN) should be connected with the protective contact.


    Do not give advice that may cause someone else's death!

    Added after 35 [minutes]:

    drypy wrote:
    Well, I feel sorry for the money for an electrician who will connect two cables, I just don't know in what situation how to do it, the execution itself is not a problem.


    Do you feel sorry for the money for repairs?
    It's like "rolling down" in your pants and instead of washing and washing your pants, just use perfume. Forgive me for the comparison, but this is what this approach looks like.

    First of all, in order to be able to perform the zeroing system, several conditions must be met, which can only be assessed by a good electrician and not from a distance, but must carefully inspect and measure the installation.
    In many cases, contrary to the opinions of some users on this forum, connecting the protective pin with the neutral wire may seriously increase the risk of electric shock. I omit the fact that the current law and standards prohibit such practices.

    If you have financial possibilities, modernize the installation in such a way that it is safe and compliant with applicable law and standards, and these require that the PE conductor in a residential installation should be run separately, i.e. the installation must be 3-wire. In addition, this cable must be connected to an earthed equalizing bar, to which all metal construction elements as well as water, central heating and gas installations must also be connected. In addition, according to the new law and standards, the use of residual current devices is mandatory.
    It should also be emphasized that "RESIDUAL CURRENT CIRCUIT BREAKERS MUST NOT BE USED IN INSTALLATIONS WHERE ZEROING (AND TN-C) has been used, AND NO RESETTING (AND TN-C) MUST BE PERFORMED WHERE THERE IS A RELAY CIRCUIT SWITCH IN THE INSTALLATION" .
    Unfortunately, the problem is how to do it all, because the way it is done depends on the type of protection used in the building and the physical possibilities of execution, and these can only be assessed by an electrician with appropriate qualifications for protective measurements. I emphasize once again that he must inspect and measure the installation.

    If the installation is made with a copper wire, you can only add an additional, separate PE wire to it, forging small grooves in the walls.
    If the installation is made of aluminum, there is nothing to think about, but to tear and lay new 3-core copper wires.

    In sum:
    If you do plasterboard or paint yourself and paint them, you do not pose a threat, apart from a poorly aesthetic view. Well, unless the woman tears your head off for it :) If you do the electrical installation wrong, you can lead to someone's death. So think about where better to look for savings.
  • #6 9900249
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
  • #7 9900270
    TyPeczek
    Level 23  
    Bronek22 wrote:
    TyPeczek wrote:
    I would also advise grounding the N conductor. Sometimes there is residual voltage on it. You will touch the device with a more sensitive wet part of your body and feel a "brush", which is not a nice feeling.

    Buddy Tuypeczek, do you have any idea? You can ground yourself to a pot with a flower.
    Grounding the N conductor is some sick heresy. Learn in school instead of posting complete stupid things on the forum.

    Heresy?
    How many-wire are high voltage lines? Why can't you do something the utility company does?
  • #8 9900381
    masonry
    Level 30  
    Buddy TyPeczek, you have no green concept about which you are writing.
    So either learn or stop making yourself even harder.
    What does the WN line have to do with it?
    So, for your knowledge, I will tell you in secret that the HV lines are three-wire and there is no N or PEN or even "neutral" conductor in them, so explain what this has to do with the grounding of the N conductor you wrote about.
    In addition, I will tell you one more secret and tell you that the N conductor is an active conductor and is not even grounded by the power company.
  • #9 9900404
    TyPeczek
    Level 23  
    For my knowledge?
    After all, I am writing about it. If the N cable runs from your home to TRAFO, and not from TRAFO to the power plant, what is happening to it? Disappears? And the current flowing through it is probably discharged by lightning.

    Moderated By Akrzy74:

    If you don't know what the discussion is about, it's better not to comment!

  • #10 9900516
    Plumpi
    Heating systems specialist
    TyPeczek wrote:
    For my knowledge?
    After all, I am writing about it. If the N cable runs from your home to TRAFO, and not from TRAFO to the power plant, what is happening to it? Disappears? And the current flowing through it is probably discharged by lightning.


    This is exactly what happens when it disappears :)
    The N conductor is created only on the secondary side of the transformer.
    Unfortunately, whether it is grounded and whether it is to be grounded at all depends on the type of protection applied, which is also imposed by the energy company.
    Without knowledge about the type of protection, it is not allowed to say unequivocally that it should be earthed, because it may turn out that it cannot even be earthed, e.g. TT or IT protection.
    Besides, if we are talking about a TN network, in which this conductor must be grounded, it is a PEN conductor for TN-C protection or a PE conductor for TN-S protection.
    It is by no means an N conductor.
  • #11 9901617
    kkas12
    Level 43  
    Quote:
    ... even it must not be earthed, e.g. TT protection ...
    In the TT system, the neutral point of the transformer (and thus the N conductor) must be grounded. There is also nothing to prevent the N conductor in the power lines (operating in this system) from being earthed.
  • #12 9901841
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
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  • #13 9902310
    drypy
    Level 10  
    The gentlemen scared me a bit of all this and I think I will do something to modernize the installation. I only have a question, if a specialist comes, what decisions can he make? I mean here especially whether it is necessary to forge the wall and tighten the cable to each socket and switch in the apartment, whether there is any option not to do it and have the electrics properly done, and what are the possible costs of such something, assuming that I do cables and forging alone.
  • #14 9902356
    Łukasz-O
    Admin of electroenergetics
    drypy wrote:
    I only have a question, if a specialist comes, what decisions can he make? I mean here especially whether it is necessary to forge the wall and tighten the cable to each socket and switch in the apartment, whether there is any option not to do it and have the electrics properly done, and what are the possible costs of such something, assuming that I do cables and forging alone.


    Nobody has a glass ball on the forum and the fairies are on vacation. Dude, in order to answer your question, you need to do a site visit.
    Personally, I do not know the method of PE without lead.
  • #15 9902411
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
  • #16 9902481
    Plumpi
    Heating systems specialist
    drypy wrote:
    The gentlemen scared me a bit of all this, and I think I will do something to modernize the installation. I only have a question, if a specialist comes, what decisions can he make? I mean here especially whether it is necessary to forge the wall and tighten the cable to each socket and switch in the apartment, whether there is any option not to do it and have the electrics properly made, and what are the possible costs of such something, assuming that I do cables and forging alone.


    Basic question:
    Should it be correct or safe?
    Correct, that is, in accordance with the law and standards. Since the law does not apply retroactively, installations that were made in accordance with the law and standards from 50 or 100 years ago are still properly made, because in accordance with the standards that were in force at that time. Therefore, in order for this installation to be valid, you do not need to do anything with it.
    Contrary to appearances, zeroing, i.e. connecting the protective pins with the zero wire, is still correct, because it complies with the old law and standards. However, in the case of old installations, it can improve security, but also drastically worsen it. It all depends on the technical condition of this installation. In addition, it was not uncommon in old installations that a fuse was also installed on the neutral conductor, the blown of which causes the immediate appearance of 230V mains voltage on the protective pins.

    For the installation to be correct and safe, it must be modernized and adapted to the current legal requirements and standards. Unfortunately, this requires a lot of protection measures, and so:
    1. Dividing the PEN conductor into PE and N
    2. Implementation of the equalizing bus with equalizing connections to all conductive installations (water, CO, gas, etc.)
    3. Carrying out an earth electrode and connecting it to the equipotential bar.
    4. Connection of the PE conductor with the equipotential bonding.
    5. Installing anti-shock RCDs.
    6. Bringing the lighting of a separate PE wire to each socket and point and connecting them with the protection pins and with the metal housings of lamps and chandeliers.

    Either way, it requires forging furrows and replacing the wires with 3 wires or adding a separate protective conductor to these points.

    Added after 7 [minutes]:

    lordpakernik wrote:
    If replacement is replacement, there is no need to add an additional cable. You replace the entire cable from the switchgear to the socket and lighting circuits. The TN network is also safe if someone has done it reliably, but with the development of the power industry at that time, it is better to replace the installation with one that complies with the standards.


    Without exaggeration.
    If the old wires are copper and in good condition, there is no need to replace them and do general demolition. You only need to run an additional protective conductor in the form of a single wire.
    Of course, it is better to replace them completely. However, this is not always the case. Sometimes cables from 30 or 40 years ago are in better condition than new ones straight from the market, which often do not even have their nominal parameters.
    Often, cables from supermarkets do not have cross-sections, which are given on labels or on the cable.
  • #17 9902537
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
  • #18 9903103
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
  • #19 9903222
    Plumpi
    Heating systems specialist
    lordpakernik wrote:
    Buddy Plumpi, there is no such thing as adding wires, e.g. a PE wire. The difference between the cable and the cable is that if it is to be done in accordance with standards and regulations, of course, I do not recommend this solution. And the installation is 2-wire everywhere, so it will add 1 wire everywhere. The Lord himself wrote:
    Should it be correct or safe?


    Identify any legal or regulatory provision that prohibits the addition of an additional PE conductor to the existing 2-wire installation.
    Besides, I don't understand what you mean when you write about cable and wire and what do you "drink" for?
  • #20 9903240
    stomat
    Level 38  
    The recipe is there. The proposed addition of the wire involves forging walls, in which case it makes sense to replace the entire wire with a three-wire one, and not any additional one. Unless you propose to put PE on top (!).
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  • #21 9903595
    Wirnick
    Level 30  
    Quote:
    With all due respect, I will not agree to this addition of the cable.

    The PE conductor may have a cross section equal to that of the phase conductor in the multi-core cable.
    Separate PE is subject to restrictions - the cross-sections of earthing and equipotential bonding.
  • #22 9904779
    artuditu2
    Level 12  
    Quote:
    The gentlemen scared me a bit of all this, and I think I will do something to modernize the installation. I only have a question, if a specialist comes, what decisions can he make? I mean here especially whether it is necessary to forge the wall and pull the cable to each socket and switch in the apartment Is there any option not to do it and have the electrics done correctly, and what are the possible costs of such something, assuming that I do the cables and forging myself.


    Maybe not exactly about ...
    my renovation took place recently. Due to the old age of the installation, my wife and I decided that the replacement would be advisable, but we were afraid of hammering the walls and pulling out old cables. As a result, the cables were not pulled out, the installation was simply laid on the new cables, and the old ones remained "somewhere".

    @down
    Do not understand the question? A colleague did not read my post and the questioning question and so he answers with the momentum?
    OP writes that he would not like to hammer the walls, to which I answer that he can put new ones without removing the previous ones ... that's it. It is not obvious to everyone, especially when they do not renovate every other month ...
  • #23 9904821
    Łukasz-O
    Admin of electroenergetics
    artuditu2 wrote:


    Maybe not exactly about ...
    my renovation took place recently. Due to the old age of the installation, my wife and I decided that the replacement would be advisable, but we were afraid of hammering the walls and pulling out old cables. As a result, the cables were not pulled out, the installation was simply laid on the new cables, and the old ones stayed "somewhere".


    And what about it. After all, no one tells you to take out the old unnecessary plug-in cables.
  • #24 11243203
    drypy
    Level 10  
    writes to close the topic and to stop receiving e-mails.
    The problem has been exhausted so far.

Topic summary

The discussion revolves around the proper connection of protective cables and neutral wires in electrical sockets during renovations. The original poster questions whether the protective pin should be connected to ground or neutral in a two-wire installation. Responses emphasize the importance of consulting a qualified electrician due to safety concerns and legal standards. Many participants argue against connecting the protective pin to the neutral wire, citing risks of electric shock and potential violations of electrical codes. The conversation also touches on the necessity of modernizing old electrical installations to comply with current safety standards, with suggestions for grounding practices depending on the type of electrical system (e.g., TT, TN). The need for a thorough inspection of the existing wiring and potential costs of upgrades are also discussed.
Summary generated by the language model.
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