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Connecting 3-Wire to Old Electrical Installation Without Grounding: Pros and Cons

TDM 65406 11
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Treść została przetłumaczona polish » english Zobacz oryginalną wersję tematu
  • #1 10719237
    TDM
    Level 11  
    Hello!

    There is no grounding in the electrical installation, there is phase 0 but there is no ground, it is quite an old installation ... The question is how to connect this 3-wire to this installation?
    There are apparently two answers:
    1. Bury the bucket in the ground and connect the 3line (?) To it
    2. The so-called bridge ? Connect the 3-wire to zero? But what does it do? If a device is connected to the mains (230v) and someone touches the housing, some of the electricity will probably flow through that someone and there will be an electric shock, right?
    Can it not be helped? Do you need to bury a bucket?
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  • #2 10719373
    Ture11
    Level 39  
    Hello.
    In short, it is either a grounding or a bridge between the zero and the protective pin. What should be done for you - this should be considered by an electrician who will inspect your installation. Because it's all about health and life, so there's no room for experience.

    Now yes, we have a bridge between the zero and the protective pin. In order for a phase to be present on the housing of the device, there must be a breakdown. If this breakdown occurs, a phase will appear on the housing and the protective pin connected to it. This, in turn, is connected to zero - the phase should short-circuit with zero, i.e. the fuses will simply pop out - immediately at the breakdown.

    You can also do grounding, often a bucket or hoop buried in the ground, sometimes connecting to water pipes. ALL THREE METHODS ARE FAILABLE as long as there are no adequate measurements, except for connection to the water pipes, which is at all UNACCEPTABLE due to the danger during water pipe repairs, etc.

    Measurements are made by an electrician with appropriate equipment - if positive, only then can it be called grounding.

    In general, both cases should blow the fuses.

    You wrote nothing about the type of installation.

    What do you need this grounding for?
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  • #3 10719585
    edekk
    Level 26  
    Quote:
    Now yes, we have a bridge between the zero and the protective pin. In order for a phase to be on the housing of the device, there must be a breakdown. If this breakdown occurs, a phase will appear on the housing and the protective pin connected to it. This, in turn, is connected to zero - the phase should short-circuit with zero, i.e. the fuses will simply pop out - immediately at the breakdown.


    And when the zero wire in the fuse box burns, all devices connected to the pin will have a phase on the housing :D .
  • #4 10719616
    TDM
    Level 11  
    I didn't really mean a breakthrough situation, I'll explain it more precisely:
    We have a ground connected to the housing of some device, this housing is not insulated and there is no breakdown in 100% (phase housing), so during normal operation it will not blow the fuses because there is no short circuit, but the ground is shorted to zero, i.e. there is voltage on the housing because there is some current from phase to zero flows. Well, I touch this housing with my hand and what is happening? Will I be electrocuted by 230v? This is a normal situation? Also, something like this would occur if I had a newer installation?

    The situation is this: What do I need this for? I am playing with modeling, now renovating the back room, soon I will buy a 3-phase lathe and milling machine. The power supply for this is not available (it will not be a "bull" lathe only for small needs). I am more and more interested in electronics, etc., therefore I thought that it would be worth trying to get this mass.
    Type of installation: I will give it tomorrow, I will look for it in my plans because I do not know ... but 99.9% I am sure that I do not have mass? Where did this conclusion come from? It may seem stupid but the pole comes to me 4 wires, i.e. 3 phases and zero, so the mass must be common with zero, which means that TN-C
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  • #5 10719770
    Ture11
    Level 39  
    TDM wrote:

    (...) but the ground is shorted to zero, so there is voltage on the casing because some current flows from phase to zero. Well, I touch this housing with my hand and what is happening? Will I be electrocuted by 230v? This is a normal situation? Also, something like this would occur if I had a newer installation?


    Why should it be so? Since the current flows from phase to zero, it does not flow through you to zero (earth), but directly to zero. As you have much more resistance to the current than the neutral wire, nothing should be happening. The situation is worse when zero burns up - then either the current finds "zero" through other devices or by the user (just touch the earthed housing). And death on the spot. In practice, the lack of zero is very dangerous, not only for the user, but also for the equipment, especially in 3F installations, where there is phase-to-phase voltage. There may be no phases, zero and there must be a protective conductor.

    Ideally, you should call an electrician, because you yourself may not wait to buy the lathe ... Unfortunately, no kidding here. If you do not know why zero has (should) earth potential, do not play with 115V / 230V / 380V on your own.

    If the installation is in working order, no power may flow through the user!

    Added after 2 [minutes]:

    edekk wrote:

    And when the zero wire in the fuse box burns, all devices connected to the pin will have a phase on the housing :D .


    It is also very important information. But probably a better bridge between zero than a buried bucket without measurements ...

    I'm begging you now, author, don't do anything yourself!
  • #6 10719872
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
  • #7 10719933
    TDM
    Level 11  
    Ture11 wrote:


    Why should it be so? Since the current flows from phase to zero, it does not flow through you to zero (earth), but directly to zero. As you have much more resistance to the current than the neutral wire, nothing should be happening

    I think I understand, if I had less resistance, the shock would be "only" and only with the current consumed by the receiver.

    I won't make a decision myself.
    Well, but there may be a coincidence that it would be better not to connect this mass? Then what ? Would it not interfere with the work of this lathe / milling machine? Wouldn't she electrocute? Does this have no effect on the operation of the device? Because I can see that I can make a lot of problems with such a connection and I do not know now whether it is worth getting into it. Somehow it bothers me that I can have mains voltage on an uninsulated housing, so it won't flow through me, but it is non-existent ...

    Zero burnout or installation failure? It does not happen often, and even if it does, is there no protection against it? (before the appearance of the phase on the housing)
    These facilities are in the basement directly under the meter, there are two wires, so I give the can and connect the mass to zero in this box. I do not know if the RCD is not phase-cut in the event of such a breakdown

    This electrician exactly what measurements should he take?
    Not the safety of shorting the ground to zero is only and only in the event of a zero burnout?
  • #8 10720071
    Ture11
    Level 39  
    TDM wrote:

    I think I understand, if I had less resistance, the shock would be "only" and only with the current consumed by the receiver.


    You would need to have less resistance than the neutral wire, but in this case touching the battery terminals in the car would kill you.
    The neutral wire can have a resistance greater than you only when there is a power failure, i.e. it burns zero. Apart from this, the neutral wire MUST be literally ZERO, i.e. zero volt - it should not hurt when touched. Of course, don't try to do this, but you can buy a neon tube and then you will understand that there is zero Volt at zero. Unless you have a fault and it's more than zero - then call an electrician quickly.
    Quote:


    Well, but there may be a coincidence that it would be better not to connect this mass? Then what ? Would it not interfere with the work of this lathe / milling machine? Wouldn't she electrocute? Does this have no effect on the operation of the device?


    The milling machine only consists of a motor, unless it's CNC, but anyway, until there is no puncture, the milling machine should not have tension on the housing, because that means it is damaged or poorly made. If every purchased equipment could electrocute itself, old installations without an earth electrode would not have the right to exist. And I have such an installation (without an earth electrode).





    Quote:
    Zero burnout or installation failure? It does not happen often, and even if it does, is there no protection against it?

    Yes, it is a failure, in fact, it rarely happens, but it is probably this topic to protect against something like that. Are there any security features? It depends where you let go of the zero point, but rather the differential (RCD) should pop out.


    Quote:
    These facilities are in the basement directly under the meter, there are two wires, so I give the can and connect the mass to zero in this box. I do not know if the RCD is not phase-cut in the event of such a breakdown

    The differential disconnects the voltage when a current of approx. 30mA flows between the phase (after the RCD) and the neutral BEFORE THE DIFFERENTIAL, i.e. simply when the current flows through the ground or through you to the ground.

    Quote:
    This electrician exactly what measurements should he take?

    He should measure the grounding resistance on the rod / bucket / hoop that you buried.


    One more thing - there are devices that electrocute when they are unearthed - for example a computer. This is not due to its defect, but rather to the presence of a filter in the computer power supply, which has a capacitor divider between the phase and zero, with a ground connection. Between the grounding of an ungrounded computer and some grounding (a pipe, anything larger, metal), there is a voltage of about 100V, while touching the housing and grounding causes a slight electric shock, although it is rather not life-threatening. Don't try, but don't be surprised when the neon tube shows you the phase between the unearthed ground and you.

    Added after 7 [minutes]:

    I would like to add that in my basement there used to be an injection molding machine (not connected by anything) and it also did some kind of grounding - it was through it that I closed the circuit with the computer and then I started to be interested in the EMI filter in the computer power supply. You are probably surprised why some unearthed elements cause the flow of electricity even though they are not in contact with anything? For example, why is a person connected to a phase electrocuted even though he or she is standing in rubber boots? The answer is simple - every object separated by an insulator from the potential is a kind of capacitor - therefore the current will find its way not through the legs, but through the interaction of man - Earth.
  • #9 10723728
    (LIDER)
    Level 17  
    Hands drop when you read it all.

    TDM wrote:
    It may seem stupid but the pole comes to me 4 wires, i.e. 3 phases and zero, so the mass must be common with zero, which means that TN-C


    It may as well be a TT system, to find out, you need to find out in the power company.

    edekk wrote:
    And when the neutral wire in the fuse box burns, all devices connected to the pin will have a phase on the housing :D .


    First of all, not the neutral wire, but the neutral wire. Secondly, the phase may appear with such a fault only at the moment of a breakdown on some device, but it will all happen sooner with such damage.

    Returning to the topic, in order to do grounding in the house, the basis is the information on the power grid system. The electrician will not have the right to make a temporary grounding for you, he will have to modernize the electrical installation to bring it into line with current standards. Honestly, these are high costs.

    I should not give such advice because it is currently forbidden, but in my private opinion, if someone cannot afford to modernize the installation, it is better to make a forbidden protective wire bridge with a neutral wire than to use equipment that requires a protective wire and there is no protective wire at all. For safety, it would not hurt to add a residual current device behind the bridge, e.g. at the device.

    I am not persuading anyone to such a solution, it is just like I say the last resort. It is forbidden and should not be used.
  • #10 10731543
    TDM
    Level 11  
    Ordinary lathe and milling machine, not cnc, more or less this: http://allegro.pl/tokarka-metalu-280-700mm-posuw-otwor-38mm-austria-i2235044513.html
    As for the change of installations in the whole house, so far it is not necessary because the meter is at home, and the power plant is now trying to remove the meters from the house, because if necessary, electricians have easier access, so this would happen additional costs with moving the counter, and to tell the truth, I do not want to do it because of one room and a lathe and milling machine, since I can do without it.
    I once heard that making such a bridge may cause incorrect operation of the device and some disruptions in the installation, I do not know if it is a law.
    Another thing, apparently with such a bridge, it is more advisable to put a 2-wire cable and make this bridge in the RIGHT order, first the neutral wire to the pin (ground) end and then to zero in the socket, is this order important? Something does not fit me a bit here, because there is no room for a differential. I would do it like this (but is it right?) Put a 3-core cable, in the socket I would connect it normally phase to phase ground to ground neutral to neutral, and then I would make a bridge in a box, in the wall I would put a small switchgear through it cable and I would give a differential there, isn't it better to do that?

    As for this body resistance, the current will not flow through me, but is it a normal situation that I would have a voltage of 230v on the housing (uninsulated)?
    Connecting 3-Wire to Old Electrical Installation Without Grounding: Pros and Cons
    Assuming such a case, I am building a power supply, I have an uninsulated housing, fearing a breakdown, I connect the protective conductor (ground) and therefore I have voltage on this housing when the receiver is on, and what if I touch the housing? When the current began to flow through me, the differential will work and it should be, but the computer power supplies do not have an insulated housing, the protective conductor is connected to it and in this case I have 230v on this housing, it is probably not a normal situation ...
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  • #11 10731552
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
  • #12 10738279
    (LIDER)
    Level 17  
    Install the residual current circuit breaker as a colleague wrote above, and connect the protective conductor to the neutral in front of the residual current circuit breaker (from the supply side).

    The order in which the wires are connected does not matter, because you need to turn off the power before any installation operations.

    As for the tripping of the residual current device, it should work even without the protective conductor. It calculates the difference of the incoming and outgoing currents and if the difference is greater than 30mA, it disconnects the current. Only you can not make a neutral bridge with a protective one behind the switch, because it will throw it out right away.

    Anyway, such activities are forbidden so you do it on your own.

Topic summary

The discussion revolves around connecting a 3-wire system to an old electrical installation lacking grounding. Users present two main solutions: burying a grounding rod or creating a bridge between the neutral and protective pin. Concerns are raised about the risks of electric shock if the housing of connected devices becomes live due to a fault. Experts emphasize the importance of proper grounding and the dangers of relying on a neutral wire without adequate safety measures. Recommendations include consulting a qualified electrician, using a residual current device (RCD), and ensuring correct wiring to prevent potential hazards. The conversation highlights the critical need for safety in electrical installations, especially when dealing with machinery like lathes and milling machines.
Summary generated by the language model.
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