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Knocking CO Return Pipe in Block - 7th Floor, Temperature Changes, Purmo Radiators, Frequency

Revoluszyn 42913 16
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Treść została przetłumaczona polish » english Zobacz oryginalną wersję tematu
  • #1 10099575
    Revoluszyn
    Level 11  
    Hello. Gentlemen, I have a big, bothersome problem with the CO pipe knocking. I will describe my situation as precisely as possible.

    In one of the rooms I found that the return CO pipe was knocking. These knocks are sometimes absent for a few hours, but can be heard every day. The oscillation of knocking in the tube ranges from every 2-5 sec. To every 20 sec.

    I live in a block of 13 floors, on the 7th floor. Only the return tube is knocking. It seems to me that the knocking occurs as the temperature of the water in the tube changes. Usually the tube is cool, but a slight warming / cooling down is enough for it to start making a tapping noise. For example, when a neighbor 2 floors above turns on the heater and the pipe starts to heat up, it knocks.

    The tubes pass through the ceiling and floor, embedded in rolled sheet metal sleeves.

    During this vacation, the team indicated by the cooperatives replaced all the radiators with steel panel Purmo. Unfortunately, it seems to me that during the exchange in one room, they made a mistake and cut the radiator tubes incorrectly. It seems to me that the return tube is about a centimeter too long in relation to the supply tube, as a result of which the vertical return tube has been pressed against one wall of the sleeve in the floor and cannot move freely in it, the same is the case with the warm supply tube water that has been pressed against the sleeve in the ceiling and it seems to me that it cannot move freely, but the feed tube does not knock - maybe because the temperature of the water in this tube does not fluctuate so much.

    It seems to me that the knock is to blame for this return tube being too tight and pressed against the sleeve, which has made it unable to move freely.

    I would like to ask you colleagues what do you think about this?

    There is one more issue and I do not know if it can affect this knocking, so I painted both tubes with white metal paint already in the heating season as they were relatively warm. As the paint was white and the color of the tubes was silver, I had to cover them with quite a thick layer, additionally from the side of the wall, the brush did not come up anymore, so the tubes are not painted there. Could this painting have any impact?

    I will add that:

    The heater is vented.
    The radiator is mounted on plastic washers.
    Even when I turn off the radiator on the upper and lower valves, the knocking does not stop.
    I go to sleep - knocks, I get up knocking. Sometimes harder, sometimes weaker, sometimes more often, sometimes less often. It's bad for my mental health :)

    On Monday, the administration is to send someone to evaluate the situation - but so far I would like to eliminate all possible problems on my side.

    I am asking for help and opinions.
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  • #2 10099706
    pastaldo
    Level 14  
    The annoying neighbor, when the tubes are warm, sits next to them and beats with joy ;)

    Seriously, these stresses shouldn't matter. Thermal expansion of the tubes may or may not be the case.
  • #3 10101728
    Piotr77777
    Heating systems specialist
    And she hadn't knocked before?
    When the tube heats up, it expands and there may be such knocks, ask those who live on the 4th, 8th and 12th floors how they knock.

    Once a friend had a similar case with him knocking in one room in the evenings and sometimes in the morning, but it turned out that the neighbors had a shaky bed and sometimes rhythmically knocking on the heater :)
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  • #4 10102000
    Revoluszyn
    Level 11  
    Piotr77777 wrote:
    And she hadn't knocked before?
    When the tube heats up, it expands and there may be such knocks, ask those who live on the 4th, 8th and 12th floors how they knock.

    Once a friend had a similar case with him knocking in one room in the evenings and sometimes in the morning, but it turned out that the neighbors had a shaky bed and sometimes rhythmically knocking on the heater :)


    No, it didn't knock before. I understand he can knock sometimes. Let him knock as I turn on the heater or something. But here it knocks almost non-stop. Since last season it did not knock, and since it did not knock in the kitchen and the other room - it should not knock here.

    This is not a knocking like someone is hitting the tubes - it is a knocking from the inside.
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  • #5 10102890
    ukji80
    Level 18  
    Does the problem only occur during the heating season?
  • #6 10103496
    Polon27
    Level 18  
    Sometimes it happens that a thermostatic valve with a head (and you probably have one and the neighbors too) causes cyclical knocking. Walk over the neighbors upstairs and downstairs and ask them to gently move the heads near the radiators from this riser. Maybe it can help.
  • #7 10104159
    thug10
    Level 14  
    you have to look for exactly where you are knocking. Once I heard about a situation where a stone in a pipe stopped on the elbow and as the flow increased, the knocking bounced and returned.

    It was not possible to remove this part of the installation, but it helped to freeze and defrost this place several times.
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  • #8 10119709
    irekmszyca
    Level 13  
    This is called cavitation and this is a serious scientific problem. A friend of mine wrote a PhD thesis about it, but when I asked how to avoid it, he said that it was more suitable for laboratory tests than for a practical solution. length and cross-section of the tube and temperature. If you change one of these parameters (in this case you can only temperature) it may stop knocking.
  • #9 10121130
    abrzuzek
    Level 15  
    Hello
    Revoluszyn wrote:
    It seems to me that the knock is to blame for this return tube being too tight and pressed against the sleeve, which has made it unable to move freely.


    I met exactly this problem - I sent a welder with gases, he burned the "twigs" and the problem disappeared.
    Probably during assembly, the radiator supply pipe was badly welded and is under tension, and when the temperature changes, it tries to move and hence the knocking knocks.
  • #10 10121181
    dziubek102
    Heating systems specialist
    Count the length of the pipe and the thermal expansion of the metal, when you change the temperature from 22 ° C to 90 ° C then you will understand that you need to correct this vias.
  • Helpful post
    #11 10123583
    FireOwl
    Level 11  
    I do not know where some people on this forum take ideas for "ridiculous" comments, but let me note that they have nothing to do with a professional response, they clutter and annoy, so if there are moderators on this forum, they should remove such entries, and "reward" such authors. It's like that for a little comment.

    Regarding the problem ... which also occurs with me. The same as with my colleague Revolushin, the knocks occur mainly in the return pipe, with different frequency, sometimes louder, sometimes quieter. Just like my colleague, I noticed that knocking occurs when the pipe is heating / cooling down, which leads to suspicion that the fault is expansion / contraction of the pipe due to changes in its temperature. Moreover, I have noticed that if the pipe is bent to one of the two sides, it will produce a similar knocking effect in the pipe, which shows that the knocking is actually caused by stress. For me, there was no radiator replaced and the pipes in the sleeves can move relatively freely. I do not know what it looks like with my neighbors, but I suspect that out of all 12 possible floors, one of the neighbors tried to replace the floor / ceiling renovation and it was done by some "specialist" who successfully plastered or otherwise immobilized the pipe in the sleeve . I also intend to report the matter to the administration after the weekend. I am also waiting with interest to hear from my colleague Revolushin, how his case will develop.
  • #12 10124194
    dziubek102
    Heating systems specialist
    dziubek102 wrote:
    Count the length of the pipe and the thermal expansion of the metal, when you change the temperature from 22 ° C to 90 ° C then you will understand that you need to correct this vias.

    metal expansion
    x = x0 (1 + alpha * T2-T1)

    alpha for copper 16.5 * 10 ^ -6 / K
    iron 11 * 10 ^ -6 / k
    90-20 = 70
    X0 = 14 floors x 2.3m ~ approx 32m

    x = 32 (1 + 11 * 10 ^ -6 * 70)
    x = 32.058m
    This means that 5.8cm of metal (copper) has arrived and this is what is moving, it is moving.
    If it gets stuck somewhere, overcoming friction and stress it starts to knock and move in leaps and bounds.
    First fast a few times as it starts to warm up, then a little slower,
    and when the pipe cools down, it also knocks because the pipe begins to contract and moves the other way.
    So release that pipe on the grommet and let the heater move around a bit, especially if you live high up. At the bottom, the pipe is usually quite tightly blocked.

    The second case is a vibrating head, inserts to be replaced. Sometimes it is enough to change the setting of the pre-setting regulator, if there is one.
  • #13 10125388
    Zbigniew Rusek
    Level 38  
    One floor is the height of the room 2.5 meters (not less) + the thickness of the ceiling, so in total it will not be less than 2.8 meters (rather close to 3 meters). If the pipes are made of copper, their thermal expansion is relatively high (greater than steel - the calculation in the previous post).
  • #14 10142476
    Revoluszyn
    Level 11  
    Thank you colleagues for your interest in the topic.

    1. The pipes are steel.
    2. Return pipe knocks - not thermostatic valve. I checked - I turned off the valve - with the head removed.
    3. A former team from the cooperative and improved the assembly - the tubes are already loosely in the sleeves - I checked by inserting a piece of paper about the length of the ceiling - it was easy to twist the sheet around the entire tube in the sleeve.

    After the team visit, the clicks lost in frequency and strength, so releasing the tubes certainly helped to some extent, but did not completely solve the problem. The return tube continues to knock, albeit much less frequently and less frequently.

    I now have a question for colleagues who are so expert in physics (not ironic). The point is that, as I wrote earlier, I painted these tubes and I would like to expand on this thread:

    I painted the tubes with plain white matte paint for metal. The tubes are painted along their entire length, but not along the entire circumference - because I couldn't approach the wall with the brush. So there is white paint on 3/4 of the circumference of the tube and old silver paint on 1/4. I painted the tubes in one layer, but I had to cover it quite thick - so that the silver color would not show through, I applied the paint thickly, but not so much that it would streak. I did not clean the tubes with anything before painting - that is, I washed them from dirt, but I did not scratch the paint with sandpaper or something. And most importantly - I painted the pipes warm - both were quite warm (this is how the whole apartment smelled - there is no cure for stupidity).

    The big question is - can this paint affect these knocks? I think the knock comes from somewhere halfway up the tube. What's more - when the tube is not touched for some time, I will go to it and start pressing it gently with my fingers, it makes the same clicks, after about 3-4 touches - it does not make a sound anymore, until I wait for some time again.

    I am asking for further help and guidance. If the paint can make a difference - I'll buy a special solvent and start removing it.

    Adds a few pics of a flawed installation, sorry for the quality made with a cell phone:

    Knocking CO Return Pipe in Block - 7th Floor, Temperature Changes, Purmo Radiators, Frequency Knocking CO Return Pipe in Block - 7th Floor, Temperature Changes, Purmo Radiators, Frequency Knocking CO Return Pipe in Block - 7th Floor, Temperature Changes, Purmo Radiators, Frequency Knocking CO Return Pipe in Block - 7th Floor, Temperature Changes, Purmo Radiators, Frequency Knocking CO Return Pipe in Block - 7th Floor, Temperature Changes, Purmo Radiators, Frequency
  • #15 10142614
    Polon27
    Level 18  
    Hello. I would still be looking for that vibrating head. As I wrote above, it may be the neighbors' head. I had one at work, and I heard the clatter generated by this head several dozen meters away. We have not replaced it so far, all you need to do is set it properly. It is enough to gently move the heads from this plumb line, and you will be sure if it's not that.
  • #16 10142647
    Revoluszyn
    Level 11  
    Yes, buddy - only the valve would cause a knock in the supply tube - and here you can clearly hear that the discharge tube is knocking.
  • #17 10169503
    dziubek102
    Heating systems specialist
    The vibrating head is about 1 to 5 Hz constantly, very easy to distinguish from temperature movement.
    When it comes to painting, no, I wouldn't look for a relationship.

    And further tapping, in my opinion, a jam, does not have to be at all with you.
    As far as I remember it is quite a tall building, you would have to walk the whole vertical, water and metal carry the sound very effectively.

Topic summary

The discussion revolves around a persistent knocking noise from a return CO pipe in a 7th-floor apartment, attributed to temperature fluctuations. The knocking occurs intermittently, often coinciding with heating cycles from neighboring units. Various contributors suggest potential causes, including thermal expansion of steel pipes, cavitation, and issues with thermostatic valves. Some recommend checking for loose fittings, ensuring proper installation, and examining the thermal expansion of the pipes. The author confirms that the issue has lessened after adjustments were made, but the knocking persists. The conversation highlights the complexity of diagnosing plumbing issues in multi-story buildings and the influence of neighboring units on heating systems.
Summary generated by the language model.
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