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somfy motors z-wave system - somfy roller shutter motors with z-wave system

rosecorp 13953 15
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  • #1 12300923
    rosecorp
    Level 1  
    Posts: 1
    Hello, I am in the process of deciding which motors for the roller shutters to choose. I am almost decided on somfy motors. I would also like to carry out a minimum of home automation myself, read amateur. Among other things, I would like to be able to control the roller shutters using the raspberry pi razberry.z-wave.me. I have found a bridge to translate z-wave commands to rts Somfy Z-Wave Universal RTS Interface (ZRTSI) Bridge Controller. Does it make sense to buy "banded" radio motors that have to be communicated with via zrtsi (where I don't know if they are already on the European market - different operating frequency of z-wave systems compared to the usa)? Is it not better to buy motors also from somfy, but not radio-controlled, and to control them with e.g. Product:
    Electronics Solutions Motorized Shade Controller
    Model:
    DBMZ Please advise.
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  • #2 15599490
    lioleon
    Level 12  
    Posts: 109
    Rate: 5
    I'm facing the same dilemma, have you managed to come up with something smarter?
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  • #3 16113541
    Sowizdrzal4
    Level 9  
    Posts: 5
    I don't know if the authors of the previous posts have already chosen or not but I am also wondering. I will most likely choose the io motors only I have one concern - will the devices communicated over Z-wave really be fully configurable in TaHom? Because if a Somfy io button costs 3.5 hundred, why buy it and not a Z-wave button for 2 hundred? Nevertheless, since this is to serve not only me but also my family and they won't know the specifics of the operation - it won't be fully useful and maybe even a nuisance. I will therefore rather bet fully on Somfy. Anyone have any experience with TaHoma?
  • #4 16114411
    Marek J.
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    If I may express my opinion, I would not invest in RTS or IO engines. They are certainly a nice "feature" - obstacle detection, feedback communication, messages, etc....
    But I know from practice that they are not reliable and therefore expensive to service. The motors work outdoors and sometimes even a badly laid cable can cause moisture to get inside (warranty is lost...). After a few years, capacitors die and, unfortunately, the whole motor then has to be replaced (few will undertake to replace the capacitor alone). Not to mention lightning or surges. Protection systems against breakage/crushing also fail over time. I think it is better to use "ordinary" motors for roller shutters which are controlled by an internal system. The controllers fit successfully in "60" boxes e.g. under the roller shutter switch.
    Regards.
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  • #5 16114667
    Sowizdrzal4
    Level 9  
    Posts: 5
    In that case, what system do you propose? I would want central control, remote control, smartphone, web browser (from an external network-via internet). It would be nice if the configurability was close to the functionality of the TaHoma Somfy. I'm afraid of surges and lightning, so I'd prefer regular motors physically hooked up to switches (bistable) in the control box/central control. I'm also thinking of a switch to cut off the power in the event of a storm.
    As for the motors themselves, I'm suggested Somfy or Mobilus but I don't know how with the Mobilus control and its sensitivity to the aforementioned problems with surges, storms.
    On the other hand, I do not know what software capabilities these Somfy or Vera control units have and whether they will meet my requirements.

    P.S. The surges in question - how is the control inside the boxes supposed to be protected from lightning or surges?
  • #6 16115570
    Marek J.
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    As for the system and the manufacturer, I will not comment as I have too little practical knowledge in this field I hate to wise up (as some do) being only a theoretician....
    Besides, there are many systems on the market. You need to do a bit of "googling" and choose one that suits you in terms of functionality, present it on the forum and ask for opinions from experienced colleagues.
    Sowizdrzal4 wrote:
    The surges in question - how is the control inside in the boxes supposed to be protected from lightning or surges?

    My point was not that inside is safer than outside and how to protect because that's a thread for a different topic, but the difference in investment and repair costs....
    E.g. an IO engine costs £800 - £1000.
    An ordinary motor costs 100 - 200 PLN + a module of 100 (Zamel, FiF) or 200 (BleBox) or 300 (Fibaro) gives a maximum of 500 PLN (you already save a few hundred zloty on one roller shutter!)
    In case of a motor failure you spend only 200 PLN and not 1000 PLN, similarly in case of a module failure - you spend max 300 and not 1000 PLN...
    Best regards.
  • #7 16115905
    Sowizdrzal4
    Level 9  
    Posts: 5
    It's not quite right with these prices. The io engine costs approx. 460 PLN. It is still more, but the price difference is not that drastic. If you don't burn up the engine for 460 for just 100, I suspect that what controls it elsewhere will burn up too. For now I'm looking for information on TaHom, Vera, Fibaro.
    As for the fact of capacitors dying, for example - are there no electronics in these cheapest motors? I suspect that there will always be a capacitor....so here I will be a little sceptical. We have no influence on company policy and the use of components, whether it is standard or automotive manufacture - capacitors or other components they use.
  • #8 16116075
    Marek J.
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    In 'normal' motors, there is only one capacitor, the so-called starting capacitor. Apart from that, there are micro limit switches, a motor with thermal protection, a planetary gearbox and an electromagnetic brake.
    460 zl for IO or RTS ? Either way you got a nice installer's discount. I understand that you will install the motors yourself and replace them in case of failure, i.e. for free? All the prices I have quoted are approximate retail prices.
    Sowizdrzal4 wrote:
    If you don't burn up the motor for 460 just for 100 then I suspect you will also burn up whatever is controlling it elsewhere.

    I don't think you've understood completely.... The motor in an external roller shutter is subjected to extreme conditions. In summer when it is running within 2 minutes it heats up to about 150 degrees until the thermic shuts down. In addition, the roller shutter's PE foam 'jacket' insulates the cooling of the components. In winter, with frost and snow after winding, the temperature compensates for the water vapour which forms in smaller or larger quantities inside. After a poorly laid cable, water can flow into the interior and any oring will sooner or later let go.
    While in a normal motor nothing much will happen due to the above-mentioned reasons, this is a very common reason for failure in these radio-controlled, overloaded, electronic limiters. That's why I'm in favour of the electronics "staying" in friendly conditions.
    But this is "Your Throne and Kingdom" (read: your choice)....
  • #9 16119282
    Sowizdrzal4
    Level 9  
    Posts: 5
    460£ per io. So should I call another company and ask how much one motor and replacement costs? As for the replacement - I am able to replace with a bit of knowledge and manual skills? Otherwise - are any specialised tools (e.g. spanners) necessary for the replacement?
    What motors would you recommend without electronics inside? The other motors that the roller shutter company suggests to me are Mobilus but there are probably electronics there too.
    If I use the simplest motors - am I able, because of their "equipment", to receive a signal at the control unit when the roller shutter is closed or not? I don't really need this obstacle detection, but a feedback message about closing would be very useful. Are there any additional devices that can perform this function?
  • #10 16119922
    Marek J.
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    Sowizdrzal4 wrote:
    should I call another company and ask how much one motor and replacement costs?

    Just call around and ask what happens when.... and how much it costs. You are in the fortunate position that you can still pick and choose.
    Sowizdrzal4 wrote:
    What motors would you recommend without electronics inside?

    The choice is large. Somfy, Nice/Elero, Faac, Simu, Mobilus, Portos, Aluprof....
    Sowizdrzal4 wrote:
    I am able to list with a little knowledge and manual skills?

    I think yes... The replacement has been described on the forum before.
    Sowizdrzal4 wrote:
    If I were to use the most ordinary motors - am I able, because of their "equipment", to receive a signal at the control unit about whether or not the roller shutter is closed?

    Unfortunately no...
    Sowizdrzal4 wrote:
    Ew. any additional devices that will perform this function?

    What about an alarm system? Do you already have one?
  • #11 16120125
    Sowizdrzal4
    Level 9  
    Posts: 5
    Marek J. wrote:

    Sowizdrzal4 wrote:
    What engines would you recommend without electronics inside?

    The choice is large... Somfy, Nice/Elero, Faac, Simu, Mobilus, Portos, Aluprof....

    Hm...strange, the salesman didn't mention that Somfy or Mobilus have motors on offer that are even "simpler" than the non-RTS versions.... or I didn't catch it. Unless Mark you have listed all the manufacturers.

    Marek J. wrote:
    And what about an alarm system? Do you already have one?

    I don't have one yet, as I've seen what it's like with roller shutters and what needs to be anticipated and thought through, I've left ordering roller shutters for now. Anything to recommend?

    And just out of curiosity - how does this kind of control work for closing the roller shutter and sending feedback? Is it only in the hands of the controller in the roller shutter motor which, for example, timestamps the closing and whether this fact has occurred at all = closing of the roller shutter (and sending a signal about this fact to the control unit) or some kind of mechanical limit in the roller shutter informing the controller about this? At this point I wonder if these Z-wave proximity sensors attached to the roller shutter would have the same result? There will probably be the question of the IP of these sensors here but this is just a theoretical question. Perhaps there is another solution?

    I'll make some calls and ask around anyway. And I think I'd like to see beforehand what I'm buying and how it's operated in practice. I'm talking about "control panels" here, I'm puzzled by the price difference in favour of TaHoma over Fibaro, although I've come across a lot of opinions that TaHoma is higher end than Fibaro. Plus plenty about Fibaro not supporting some Z-wave devices.
  • #12 16120323
    Marek J.
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    All the aforementioned manufacturers have "normal" motors on offer.
    Sowizdrzal4 wrote:
    And just out of curiosity - how does this control of closing the roller shutter and sending feedback work? Is this only in the hands of the controller in the roller shutter motor, which e.g. timestamps the closing process and whether this fact has occurred at all = closing of the roller shutter (and sending a signal about this fact to the control unit) or some mechanical limit in the roller shutter informing the controller about this fact?

    You will only get full information with IO type drives (with two-way communication). These have built-in encoders that count down the number of RPM and the direction of movement. Suppose the bottom position from the top is 0-1000 RPM of the motor. You give the command to lift completely. When the encoder counts 1000 revolutions the control panel sends a message that the task has been completed. If the roller shutter jams and an "overload" is triggered at 600 revolutions - the motor switches off and you receive a corresponding message.
    In solutions with normal motors, you will get feedback from external sensors/devices. This is why I asked about the SSWiN system, because you can "kill two birds with one stone". The use of a reed switch on a roller shutter provides security and can also inform...
    See for example there http://www.satel.pl/pl/cat/15/integra-domy-i-mieszkania
  • #13 16232969
    AllRounder
    Level 9  
    Posts: 10
    Rate: 2
    Marek J. wrote:
    I think it is better to use "ordinary" motors for roller shutters which are controlled by an internal system. The controllers fit successfully in "60" boxes e.g. under the roller shutter switch.
    Greetings.

    Hello,
    here I must make everyone aware of one point.
    Namely: installers and traders selling control systems for roller shutters (and not only), such as FIBARO, claim as an advantage of their solution that you can save money on the motor for roller shutters by buying a cheap, ordinary motor with mechanical limiters.
    Nothing could be further from the truth!!!
    Remote control systems calculate the time it takes to open and/or close the shutter based on current consumption. Once the system has been programmed, you give the command "all shutters down" and the individual controllers calculate the time and send the information "CLOSED" to your smartphone. But are they really closed? Well, not necessarily....
    Furthermore, no actuator-driven shutter without obstacle detection should be operated unattended (read: remotely).
    You are already packed up in the car, ready to go, smartphone, command "CLOSE ALL", while your child, with his nose against the glass of the terrace window, is looking to see if his teddy bear is really asleep.... A bit of a lime, eh?
    Additionally, most roller shutter manufacturers will reject a claim for damaged armour if the motor has no detection, and you will often have this problem.
    Please consider this issue. You are investing a lot of money in your house or renovation, and you are considering obstacle detection for e.g. 2 - 3 thousand.
    Regards.

    PS. later I will write you something about the motors themselves, their advantages and disadvantages....
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  • #14 16233737
    Marek J.
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    AllRounder wrote:
    You are investing a heap of money in a house or renovation, and are wondering about obstacle detection for, say, 2 - 3 thousand

    That's not the point here... Have you read all the posts carefully from the beginning?
    AllRounder wrote:
    Remote control systems calculate themselves the opening and/or closing time of the iris based on current consumption. Once the system has been programmed, you give the command "all shutters down" and the individual controllers calculate the time and send the information "CLOSED" to your smartphone. But are they really closed? Well, not necessarily....

    This is why SSWiN is used, which was also mentioned....
    AllRounder wrote:
    You are already packed at the car, ready to go, smartphone, the command "CLOSE ALL", and your child with his nose against the glass of the terrace window is looking to see if his teddy bear is definitely sleeping in its place.... A bit of a lime, eh?

    Any normal person would look after and guard the child in the above situation first, then secure the property.... :!:
    AllRounder wrote:
    Additionally, most roller shutter manufacturers will reject a claim for damaged armour if the motor has no detection

    If someone puts something in the way of the armour, it is not the manufacturer's fault, after all, and detection is very often unreliable and will either fail to close/open the roller shutter or "grind"/bend the armour to the "left side" for reasons I have also written about. Besides, the cost of replacing a few stickies is a fraction of the cost of replacing a "smart" drive that got schizophrenic.... :D
    Also:
    AllRounder wrote:
    Here I must make everyone aware of one point

    you should rather write: "in my humble opinion", as the former sounds odd coming from the hand of someone who couldn't connect an engine a year ago....
    AllRounder wrote:
    PS. later I will write you something about the engines themselves, their advantages and disadvantages

    Looking forward with curiosity... :D
  • #15 16245564
    AllRounder
    Level 9  
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    Marek J. wrote:
    you should rather write: "in my humble opinion", because the former sounds odd coming from the hand of someone who couldn't connect an engine a year ago....

    I can see that colleague Marek J. gets annoyed when someone has something to say on a subject in which he himself feels he has a "horse". The remarks on some old topics reek of deviant jealousy, all the more so because they are unfounded. Someone who deals in cars and knows all about their advantages, disadvantages and value - does not need to know how to replace the rectifier bridge in an alternator.
    I don't quote or mock your "writings", even though they don't all hit reality - you don't need to do that either. I think this forum is for sharing my knowledge with other users and I do that. If it hurts you for some reason - keep quiet about it please and don't make a fuss about yourself....

    And now about roller shutter motors and the technologies that control them in a nutshell:

    There are many brands available on the Polish market. Quite a few of them are "Chinese", which do not all have to be of poor quality. Probably the strongest manufacturer on the market - SOMFY - also has some of its factories in China. But I'm not going to elaborate on the 'softies' because I see that you are mainly concerned with 'intelligent' or obstacle-detection actuators.

    For the time being, I would only consider the following brands of actuators with two-way communication:
    1. Manufacturer SOMFY (France), io-homecontrol technology (RTS does not have two-way communication)
    2. SELVE manufacturer (Germany), COMMEO technology

    As to their advantages and disadvantages:
    SOMFY - very reliable company, high quality control and thus negligible failure rate, extensive service to perfection. A very big advantage of the io-homecontrol system is its stability. Moreover, after registering on the Somfy website, the user gets a 5-year service cheque, which is also a big advantage. Unfortunately, the system itself is not very extensive in receivers/controllers for devices other than window shades (roller shutters, gates, facade blinds). The system's control units: TaHoma and Connexoon can control some products with Z-Wave technology but, as far as I can tell, this is not a very fruitful or successful collaboration. Somfy is working on expanding its own system. The big disadvantage of roller shutter actuators with io-homecontrol technology (as well as all radio actuators from any manufacturer!!!!) is that the actuator can only be controlled (there are exceptions which will be discussed below) via radio, read: remote control, smartphone, transmitter. The slickest wall-mounted (stationary) transmitter in this technology costs about 150PLN, and every roller shutter should have its own.

    SELVE - "German accuracy, German workmanship". Very good product. Negligible failure rate. Service unfortunately poor considering Somfy. The biggest advantage of Commeo actuators is their HYBRIDITY. Each actuator can be controlled by radio and a regular roller shutter switch which eliminates the need to buy expensive stationary transmitters. In addition, you can control the roller shutters even when the radio system goes down. Another advantage of these motors is that obstacle detection works on the principle of a moving motor head and not on the principle of overload as in other brands (including Somfy). This means that the roller shutter sheath does not have to unfold into the box and block the motor for it to switch off. SEL Plus motors (as they are referred to) can also control screens (detection will work too) and can work with soft armour hangers. The motor itself is about 150 -200£ cheaper than Somfy. The Commeo technology itself is quite young but given SELVE's past products - the Germans have a good reputation.

    And one more thing: everything above is just "my humble opinion" :)

    If I have helped - I am glad. If there's anything else I can help with - I'll be glad too.
    Best regards to everyone, including my colleague Mark J.
  • #16 16307673
    Marek J.
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    AllRounder wrote:
    I can see that my colleague Marek J. gets annoyed when someone has something to say on a subject in which he himself feels a "horse". The remarks on some old topics reek of deviant jealousy, all the more so because they are unfounded. Someone who trades in cars and knows all about their advantages, disadvantages and value - does not need to know how to replace the rectifier bridge in an alternator.

    You're wrong... I'm not getting upset, I'm just trying to help according to the stated topic without waterboarding or questionable experience. Despite the fact that my "hobby" is gates, roller shutters, drives, etc. etc., I know and know how to locate the damage and repair the alternator because these are the basics....
    Maybe my "write-ups" are silly, but they are backed up by years of experience and not a momentary fascination with new technologies. I'm not a conservative, but sometimes unfortunately better is the enemy of good...(until it's better :D )
    The fact that you have something to say about "smart" drives is all very well, but it is not the solution for the founder of the topic. Open a thread in the appropriate section of the forum and let the users decide....
    And of course we look forward to a continuation of your arguments supported not only by knowledge but also by experience...(preferably many years).
    Regards.
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