How to check the operation of the carbon monoxide sensor yourself?

piracik wrote:

Domelski wrote:
You can see that a colleague "specialist" works in the topic (> 2000 posts) and wrote that he checks.

I can see my friend that you are very fond of me.

Buddy "Piracik" by the way, I have no bad intentions.
I already wrote that I did not know that the signature "specialist" is automatically suitable. I thought that you added it yourself, which would indicate high knowledge, and thus respect for your advice among users.
This is important because if someone sees that a "specialist" writes something, they consider it to be true.
I am not trying to attack anyone here, but I refer to posts because as you can see there is some interest in the topic.

piracik wrote:

Nowhere did I write that I perform tests under protocols.
I don't calibrate the detectors and check them as you do as part of their inspections.
I also do not have the signature of a specialist detectors, only heating systems, and these are probably two different fields.

buddy you wrote:

piracik wrote:

I check them all with a lighter. I fire it up, blow it out and put it on for a while. Everyone should start screaming!

I have known both industries for a long time and I know how boiler service technicians try to check detectors.
On the one hand, you write that you check "all", and in a moment you write that you do not check anything for protocols, etc. Why are you moving them at all?
Don't judge me. You write that you do not check anything under the protocols and ok I believe you.
I just hope that after a few of my posts you will take a broader look at these devices and will not make a dangerous mistake in the future. You gave dangerous advice on the forum and forgive me, but I reacted.

piracik wrote:

I only wrote how I check if the entire system, e.g. gazex, works. Whether the detector responds to gas, an alarm occurs and the valve closes. So I check for myself.

What for?
For the first time I hear that I am servicing a device (e.g. a boiler), but I will do a few more works for myself, for which the client will not pay me.
But okay, I believe you. I suggest we don't go further with this.

piracik wrote:

I am not interested in the exact activation concentration because this measurement and calibration is within the scope of the service. Detectors are shipped every 2 years.

Dude, you're really embarrassing yourself.
1. According to the manual, the detection system should be serviced every 3 months. (for Gazex systems)
You can read more about periods here: http://detektory.pl/index.php?k=serwisdetekcja
2. Calibration of sensors (depending on the type, it is performed every 6, 12 or 36 months). There are no (periodic) ones every 2 years.
DEX (GAZEX) instruction page 4:
Semiconductor: https://www.gazex.pl/media/pdfs/docs/dex-nn-n/u1-4/ins_DEXnn_4F4CnnN_1710.pdf
Catalytic: https://www.gazex.pl/media/pdfs/docs/dex-nn-k/u2-2/ins_DEXnnK_vU2_5nnKFU2_1710.pdf
3. Calibration of the sensor module itself is not a confirmation of technical inspection and in no way replaces it.
So you do customer reviews with a lighter, and if something doesn't workor the system requires calibration, which as an unauthorized service you cannot do, you send the sensor to the service and you think that the system is properly serviced by giving such advice on the forum.
In addition, the detector is shipped on a date not provided for in any instructions.
Sorry, but you write it yourself and you claim that you do not issue a report of these activities. I'm really not helping you with this and I really want to believe.
I suggest we go no further.

piracik wrote:

Domelski wrote:
In addition, exceeding the range can cause decalibration or even damage to the detector.

You got me a little confused here.
I had the detector calibrated about two months ago. I had a pretty serious gas leak last week. The detector got 100% of the dose.

!!! ATTENTION !!!
1. How do you know more than 100% of the dose. Unfortunately, you use unprofessional terms (no offense) and I have a hard time understanding what you mean. Whether it is 100% LEL or 100% v/v.
2. Exceeding 100% LEL in the boiler room is a huge risk of explosion. And the boiler room is still standing?
3. Since the detector was calibrated and the system reacted correctly, the valve worked at 30% LEL (probably because I don't know how it was set, and this setting is the most common). The rest of the gas leaving the pipeline is small and should not create a concentration of 100% LEL. If it did, the designer has designed the facility incorrectly and you should find out on the site that the pipeline contains a huge amount of gas and there should be more valves than just the main one to break the pipeline into pieces.
You have gas rights.
Buddy, if there was a case of reaching 100% LEL on the facility, then you were one step away from a disaster.

piracik wrote:

Do I need to recalibrate it? How to avoid such situations in the future?

Any detector that has been in an atmosphere outside its measuring range must be calibrated because you never know what condition it is in. Of course, it depends on the exposure time, the height of the crossing, etc. Some sensors are more resistant than others. And the IR sensors are completely resistant (no chemical reaction takes place in them).

piracik wrote:

Are smaller doses of such gas safe for the detector or can they also decalibrate or damage it?

Unfortunately, all sensors except infrared (IR) are based on chemical-physical reactions. This means that contact with the gas is a consumable factor for the detector. That is why manufacturers recommend technical inspections and why they are not done with a lighter. The point is to check the condition of the detector during the inspection. And for this, it is necessary to supply gases with specific parameters (matched to a given detector).
What you are asking about, i.e. detectors working in the so-called gas background (in an atmosphere containing small amounts of gas) decalibrate very quickly. Therefore, their calibration has nothing to do with periodic calibration. Periodic calibration is given for detectors operating in a clean atmosphere. That is, if e.g. The manufacturer stated that in a clean atmosphere, the detector is calibrated every 3 years. If you have a gas background, very often the detector is significantly decalibrated after 0.5 year (sometimes after 1 year - you never know). If the inspection is done with a cigarette lighter, you will never catch such an error and the detector will not work properly in an emergency.
To illustrate the problem in portable meters, manufacturers recommend calibration before each measurement.

The atmosphere in the facilities is never 100% clean. There are different kinds of garbage in it and the working conditions of the devices are different. That is why frequent inspections using the right equipment are so important and cannot be skipped or performed with the wrong equipment.

Domelski wrote:

1. How do you know more than 100% of the dose. Unfortunately, you use unprofessional terms (no offense) and I have a hard time understanding what you mean. Whether it is 100% LEL or 100% v/v

100% v/v, i.e. clean gas straight from the pipe. May be?

I meant a gas detector, which I use to check the tightness of the installation. I never wrote that I had such a concentration in the boiler room. Anyway, as you've noticed, you've probably already read about it in all the news.
You're exaggerating everything, my friend.
Since I know that no one is doing gazex reviews, can I check for my own peace of mind whether this system works at all?
Some time ago, sensors came with calibration for two years. Maybe the gazex was wrong.

Domelski wrote:

On the one hand, you write that you check "all", and in a moment you write that you do not check anything for protocols, etc. Then why do you touch them at all?

Does one conflict with the other? Can't check without protocol and without FV?
Yes. I go to people's houses and check them all. eh...
All I check... maybe?

Let me post a snippet of the manual you linked:



Not recommended but allowed.
So what is it really like with these detectors? Who to trust now?

Added after 16 [minutes]:

Domelski wrote:

You can see that a colleague "specialist" works in the topic (> 2000 posts) and wrote that he checks.

I will check and recommend checking. It's better to check and how to know that something is out of order than to live in the belief that we will be protected by a detector that has not really worked for years!

Buddy "piracik", please write a little more clearly what we are talking about because it's really hard for me to advise and help you.
Look:
- The topic is about carbon monoxide detectors
- You jumped on the "gazex" in the boiler room
- Now you say that you checked the leak with a leak detector, and you are asking about its poisoning
We already have at least 3 topics. I try to professionally answer all your questions, but I'm a bit confused. 8-O

Therefore, as a professional and from what I see as a moderator, I think I have the right to ask you to use professional terminology. Otherwise, I won't be able to answer your questions honestly.

piracik wrote:

100% v/v, i.e. clean gas straight from the pipe. May be?

I see. If it was as I thought about a stationary detector in the boiler room. All my comments are valid.
As for the leak detector, please provide the model and I will be happy to help you and tell you how to proceed.
Leak detectors work a little differently and are approached a little differently.

piracik wrote:

Since I know that no one is doing gazex reviews, can I check for my own peace of mind whether this system works at all?

piracik wrote:

Does one conflict with the other? Can't check without protocol and without FV?
Yes. I go to people's houses and check them all. eh...
All I check... maybe?

Listen, you wrote:

piracik wrote:

I check them all with a lighter. I fire it up, blow it out and put it on for a while. Everyone should start screaming!

Of course, you can check what you want and how you want.
Like I said, I believe you and I don't really see the need to go any further. We both know what it's like.
It's your business and your responsibility.
I really try to explain, help and warn because I've seen a bit.

piracik wrote:

Are smaller doses of such gas safe for the detector or can they also decalibrate or damage it?

By the way, since I already took the manual in hand, the answer to this question is also in it. 12 point 6.1.1

piracik wrote:

Not recommended but allowed.
So what is it really like with these detectors? Who to trust now?

Well, now I'm going to end you
See the same instruction on page 4 last line:
- It is NOT allowed to use gases of uncontrolled concentration for tests of the detector's operation
The manual contradicts itself if anywhere it allows the lighter to test. (the lighter is 100% v/v propane-butane, i.e. the concentration is not controlled by definition and is lethal to any type of detector)
And be smart man.
Generally, the point was that installers in Poland are what they are and nonewill not spend extra money to call an authorized service or even more for expensive calibration gases and their entire infrastructure. But the system needs to be accepted by the investor and shown that it works. Hence the idea of manufacturers for lighters. This is how they show installers during training.
Immediately, the smarter one said that this is how you can do a service and earn money. And here is the paradox and the main problem. The problem is that these people do not realize that in the event of an accident, the insurer and the court will not consider whether this is possible.

Domelski wrote:

In order for the detector to work properly, it must receive a specific reference gas mixture. For this, the detector needs time to react and stabilize the gas in the measuring chamber

The time of activation (alarm) of the carbon monoxide sensor has been strictly defined in PN-EN 50291-1:2010 and is:

30 PPM - no alarm before 120 minutes,
50 PPM - must alarm within 60-90 minutes,
100 PPM - must alarm within 10-40 minutes,
300 PPM - must alarm within 3 min.

What do you think about the first, quite wide siren activation interval (120 min - ∞ ?

It all depends on what you want to use the detector for.
If you look at the regulations, the TLV (The Maximum Allowable Concentration) is already about 20ppm. And in this concentration, a person can stay for the entire 8-hour shift at work. (this is a weighted average)
In turn, the standard for garage halls PN-EN 50545 says that the alarm thresholds are to be 30/60/150ppm (also weighted averages), which is nothing to the provisions on TWA/STEL.
These are quite harsh conditions considering that a cigarette is about 1000ppm

However, these boundaries must be set somewhere, so that producers have clearly defined and users can buy home without special knowledge.
Remember that these limits say that this concentration will not affect you or your future generations if you stay in it for long periods of time.
Thus, if you have 100ppm for a while, nothing will happen to you. (by the way, this is the size corresponding to the STICh) But even a long stay can have an impact.

This is a very difficult problem because gas is not something that can be easily studied (in the sense of its effect on humans).
Not only are we different, i.e. the impact depends on age (e.g. children), weight, effort (how much you inhale, what is your coefficient), diseases (e.g. asthmatics or people with lung diseases). One will die quickly, the other will survive. One smoker will die after a dozen or so years, and another will outlive many who lead a healthy lifestyle.

This limit has been set taking many factors into account. At the same time, you must take into account the measurement error of the detectors.
If you have a range of 0-300ppm and assume a small error of 3%, it is already 9ppm. For this, take the various operating conditions of the device and it will turn out that sometimes 30ppm is not enough. The greater the range, the greater the errors of the sensors, despite the fact that the resolution is the same, i.e. 1ppm. People think a range like 0-1000 will be better. And that depends on what. The lower the values I want to test, the smaller the range I need to have. This in turn exposes the detector to overranges that destroy it. And so you can play endlessly.

These are the parameters for home sensors. So it is assumed that the user is a moron and is supposed to get an alarm and not to go into why. The sensors are supposed to work the same way, so that he doesn't have to read when he buys, because he can't do it with understanding or draw conclusions anyway.
On the other hand, if you want to conduct professional research or the object is not an apartment or a small house (e.g. multi-family buildings, garages or industry), then other systems should be used and there are as many parameters as you want. Especially in digital, addressable systems, you can do anything because the sensor is only a measuring element, and the parameters you want to extract from it are determined by the designer.

Here you can see an article about detection in boiler rooms. Just look at the thresholds for CO or other gases.
http://detektory.pl/pliki/201811%20detektory%20gazu%20w%20kotlowni.pdf

Domelski wrote:

If you look at the regulations, the TLV (The Maximum Allowable Concentration) is already about 20ppm. And in this concentration, a person can stay for the entire 8-hour shift at work.

Yes, and in a home with infants, the alarm must only occur above 50 ppm.

You'd have to ask the developers of the standard.

Idiots didn't create it, so I guess they took that into account. The question is what research they used and what assumptions they made.
It is interesting that in garage halls, in the PN-EN 50545 standard, they assumed that the first alarm level is 30ppm.
With a gas boiler, this is not a problem, because when there is a failure, the concentration increases.
But as it looks in rooms with old coal boilers, goats and other crap, it may turn out that people are sitting there all the time in some fumes.
A good measurement is CO2 and O2. I used to measure at home and in an apartment (both had a fireplace) under different conditions. My own request. No smoking without windows wide open. The fireplace is good for decoration. But heating with it is very difficult and the installation must be done very well. Different weather conditions, etc.
And apparently CO2 also has a long-term impact on humans. WHO is supposedly investigating, but so far nothing has come up with a new one.
Therefore, it is really important in detection installations (those "non-domestic ones") that a designer who will select alarm thresholds for a specific installation, taking into account various factors, is of great importance.

Have you read the entire standard? Because I admit I haven't read it all.

Domelski wrote:

I used to measure at home and in an apartment (both had a fireplace) under different conditions.
My own request. No smoking without windows wide open.
The fireplace is good for decoration

Strong words.

Domelski wrote:

Have you read the entire standard?

For the time being, I found equally interesting literature, i.e. the CO sensor and the Office of Competition and Consumer Protection.
For example, regarding the 1st threshold it is written:

According to the requirements of the above standard, the sensor should signal the concentration of carbon monoxide at the level of 30 ppm after 120 minutes

acc. for me the main intention of this record is: no alarm before 120 min.

maybe it's stupid I was breathing air from my lungs and a cigarette and it worked. the main thing is that it works

heroglobina123 wrote:

maybe it's stupid I was breathing air from my lungs and a cigarette and it worked. the main thing is that it works

It's not stupid, it just doesn't say much about the state of the device. Depending on the type of sensor used (semiconductor, electrochemical), the detectors may react to a sudden change in humidity (the air from the lungs is very humid). Mainly semiconductor sensors are sensitive to everything, which is why the world uses slightly more expensive electrochemical ones (of course, we are talking about carbon monoxide).
Unfortunately, this does not mean that the detector is working. All you know is that the moisture caused his sensor to respond. But whether it detects correctly, whether it reacts to carbon monoxide or another gas for which it is designed - you do not know.

And if I put hot firewood to such a sensor - should it wake up or not?

It may or may not, and you can also overrange and decalibrate the detector. It is difficult to assess the amount of carbon monoxide emitted in this way. In addition, the combustion products that you feed to the detector have a high temperature and contain other garbage.

Therefore, such "tests" should not be performed. Only calibration gases supplied from cylinders in the manner specified for a given device are used for testing.

No lighters, sprays, bottled gas, cigarettes, burning newspapers, puffing, car exhaust fumes, solvent fumes and other brilliant ideas.