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TN-S Single-Phase Installation Query: Connecting PE, N, and L Wires in England

lasica1985 9207 29
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  • #1 16289316
    lasica1985
    Level 9  
    Hello, dear group of professionals.
    Recently, a colleague from work asked me to take a look at his electrical installation in England. I defended myself against this for a long time because I do not have the appropriate knowledge and documents. After some time, hearing from my friend that the electrician had left him a plan on the wall on how to connect the wires and the friend was sure he knew how to connect "plus and minus", as he put it, I decided that I would take a look at it. I removed and secured some old wires hanging from the walls, which, surprisingly, were under voltage and there were three small children in the house. Later, I had to use one cable to connect to the switchboard, because that was all he asked me to do :P

    So, TN-S type installation, single-phase installation, WLZ 25mm, Pe cable connected to the house together with N and L, i.e. no PEN distribution in the house. The rest is as in the photos.
    Note: the photos were taken after the intervention of "Master Kowalski" of everything - bricklayer, plasterer, acrobat """ visible blue colors of wires connected to overcurrent fuses, I had the opportunity to see the installations of the first Alfa specialist.

    An interesting thing caught my eye, there is an output in the fuse with two wires - circlut line,
    i.e. the L wire goes to the first socket, from this to the second, etc. and from the last socket in the circuit, the L wire runs back to the switchboard and is connected to the same fuse. So I scratched my head a bit and on the one hand it makes sense, because if there is a break in the circuit, e.g. between the first socket and the second one on the L wire, we still have voltage on the second, third, etc.
    However, the problem is with the size of the protection, which I do not understand and I am asking for clarification, because the wires are 2.5 mm and the fuse is 32 A.
    In my opinion, the security should be 16 A. [without calculating from formulas, etc.].
    I asked my friend to call and ask if the Alfa electrician hadn`t made a mistake, but Alfa said that twice 2.5 mm is equal to 5 mm, so it`s a kind of protection.
    I don`t like it a bit, because what if there is a break in the circuit, e.g. between the fuse and the first socket, and someone decides to connect two stoves and a kettle? A current of e.g. 30 A will then flow, and the long-term load capacity of Cu 2.5 mm is about 16 A. Moreover, it is the same circuit, so where is Kirchhoff`s first law here?
    I would like you to explain this, because in my opinion it is a mistake.
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  • #2 16289662
    polaklbn
    Level 24  
    In the beginners section - just congratulations.

    I don`t know the electrical regulations in England, but the 3x2.5 cable is NOT 5mm or 7.5mm, but 2.5 L, 2.5 N, 2.5 PE.
    Moreover, PNHD strictly defines the colors of the conductors for PE, N, L, and in this case only PE meets the color requirements. (We are in England, I may be wrong).
    Check whether switches at lighting points do not interrupt N. Constant Phase is unacceptable.
    These are just a few of my comments - let my colleagues who deal with this abroad add more - there is no shortage of them here.
  • Helpful post
    #3 16290015
    danielkk
    Level 31  
    Everything is OK, read about the ring main circuit, it is a topic discussed millions of times on this forum and it is customary in every country. In the UK, this is how installations are made, and control measurements must be carried out every 10 years in homes to detect such errors, i.e. lack of continuity in the ring.
  • #4 16291893
    lasica1985
    Level 9  
    Well, this lack of continuity - it doesn`t suit me, you have to take every scenario into account. Maybe the advantage is that the PE conductor in the cables is always without insulation {bare wire}, only pieces of insulation are stretched at the ends, so something will always help in the event of a break in the insulation at L or N.
    However, I still don`t like it very much, I will definitely read it, although I can`t find anything about it on the electrode here
    ``ring main circuit`
    I put it in this section because I`m a beginner.
    Thanks for the advice
  • #5 16291910
    kkas12
    Level 43  
    With this overload, it`s not quite what you think. The appropriate number of sockets in the circuit and limiting the consumption to a maximum of 13A by the receiver rather meet this goal.
    Although everything is in the hands of the installation user.
    You can also omit the loop, but then you have to replace the double-track MCB with two single ones.
    Read posts and topics by 15kVmaciej. There you should find something on the topic that interests you.
    Or maybe write to him?
  • #7 16291948
    danielkk
    Level 31  
    Your speculations will not change anything in the way installations are carried out on the islands, that`s the way it is done. Each plug has a protection of 13A max, so you won`t overload the circuit too much, unless you connect several radiators at once for a long time, but the probability is slim. I`ve seen a few houses with a lack of L or N continuity, but I`ve never had anything sunk, etc.
  • #8 16291982
    lasica1985
    Level 9  
    I`m guessing because electricity and electricity are my hobby, so I learn this way by guessing, and I`m only theoretically looking for problems here.
    I found something like this
    http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/ringmain.htm
    and twice, I know it`s unlikely to overload the circuit, but it`s possible. I just wanted to ask if my doubts are correct, purely theoretically????
  • Helpful post
    #9 16292012
    danielkk
    Level 31  
    It is possible, of course, if someone persists, anything is possible. Each new installation is tested before being put into operation and such errors would be detected at the very beginning. As a rule, the break in L, N, PE is in the socket if the wires are incorrectly tightened or if it breaks or something, or if someone physically drills it into the wall. Every visit by an electrician to replace anything should end with basic measurements.
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  • Helpful post
    #10 16292033
    kkas12
    Level 43  
    Moreover, you do not have and will not find a receiver with a cable with a plug that would draw more than 13A.
    This type of fuse only has (if I remember correctly) 3; 5; 7; 10 and 13A only these values.
  • #11 16292044
    lasica1985
    Level 9  
    Thank you very much for your answer, now I can sleep peacefully :-) I wanted to check my own way of thinking.
    When it comes to measurements, unfortunately it`s only a theory, because in practice, where I was, everyone messes around and doesn`t take any measurements.....

    p.s. I see that a friend from Poland lives next door, greetings from across the Vistula. I`m leaving the topic open for now, maybe someone will add something else


    kkas12 wrote:
    Moreover, you do not have and will not find a receiver with a cable with a plug that would draw more than 13A.
    This type of fuse only has (if I remember correctly) 3; 5; 7; 10 and 13A only these values.

    I agree that I will not find a receiver larger than 13 A, but I will find 5 receivers of 8 A each, i.e. 40 A - we are still talking about several sockets in one circuit.
    let`s make it 5 after 6A :-) because the circuit breaker has 32A
  • #12 16292071
    kkas12
    Level 43  
    You will also find such in Poland.
    This is why there is overcurrent protection that will detect an error.
    The more you overload the circuit, the faster it will fail.
  • #13 16292095
    lasica1985
    Level 9  
    I apologize for my reluctance in acquiring knowledge, but the overcurrent protection will work after exceeding a certain value {generally}, so if we have 32A and one 2.5 wire because the other one is broken, we have 5 sockets on this circuit and 6A each {for example } then we have 30 So the protection doesn`t work.

    What happens to the cable then???
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  • #14 16292125
    danielkk
    Level 31  
    In homes, not all sockets are equipped with one 32A fuse. Bottom separately, top separately and kitchen separately. Let`s assume that you have 10 sockets on each circuit and there is a break in the middle, then you have 5 sockets powered on one side and the other 5 on the other side. You can guess in many ways, but it`s just guessing, you won`t change anything, when something melts, you make two radials from the ring and then add 16A protection
  • #15 16292170
    kkas12
    Level 43  
    You can always use a 4mm2 cable and 40A protection :)
  • #16 16292197
    lasica1985
    Level 9  
    kkas12 wrote:
    You can always use a 4mm2 cable and 40A protection :)


    Basically, it`s the same thing, only the values increase. :-)
    Once again, many thanks for your interest, I honestly thought that there was some important principle that I had missed in science so far, but I see that it is simply about "Assumption of Small Probability of Circuit Overload"
    what else I don`t like but I accept it.
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  • #17 16292207
    kkas12
    Level 43  
    This rule is the maximum number of sockets in a circuit.
    And that`s what you need to find out.
  • #18 16292228
    lasica1985
    Level 9  
    kkas12 wrote:
    This rule is the maximum number of sockets in a circuit.
    And that`s what you need to find out.


    Yes, there is such a rule, but I was still wondering about it - not putting inserts in sockets {plugs}.
    There were 4 or 5 double rooms in the apartment.
    In fact, the 13 A insert in the socket interrupts the circuit, then everything would be fine - if it is in the sockets {plugs}

    but it still doesn`t help because it`s about the sum of amperes on the circuit :P
  • #19 16292258
    kkas12
    Level 43  
    It is impossible for a plug (not a socket) to not have a fuse.
    Unless you remove it yourself and replace it with a wire or screw.
  • #20 16292288
    lasica1985
    Level 9  
    kkas12 wrote:
    It is impossible for a plug (not a socket) to not have a fuse.
    Unless you remove it yourself and replace it with a wire or screw.



    In fact, I have never seen original English plugs without fuses,
    However, I have encountered many times with plugs from Poland without fuses inserted en masse into English sockets :P which, even for an ordinary housewife who does not know how to change a light bulb, is a skill known in the first week of her stay on the islands.
    Well, English norms were created with the English in mind, not our colonists :P


    ps Although with parallel connections such as sockets, these fuses on the plugs still give me sleep hahaha :P then 5x6=30 :P :P
  • #21 16324445
    fx112
    Level 9  
    Hello ! I`m not an electrician, but I have a question for you. What does an RC type cable (from Round Cabels = round cable) mean? With maybe Ribbon Cabel?
  • #22 16324450
    danielkk
    Level 31  
    Maybe something more, a photo or the exact cable model?
  • #25 16324592
    fx112
    Level 9  
    It is true that Ribbon Cable means a ribbon cable, but why the repetition "for RC type ribbon cables"?
  • #26 16325881
    Justyniunia
    Level 36  
    Same as the term "LED"
  • #27 16325993
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
  • Helpful post
    #28 16326442
    e-sparks
    Electrician specialist
    lasica1985 wrote:
    So, TNC-S type installation, single-phase installation, WLZ 25mm, Pe cable connected to the house together with N and L, i.e. no PEN distribution in the house.
    The installation is definitely TN-S.
    lasica1985 wrote:
    visible blue colors of wires connected to overcurrent fuses
    This is nothing unusual, until recently in the UK the phase colors used were red, yellow, blue, and the neutral black.
    lasica1985 wrote:
    2.5 mm cables and a 32 A fuse.
    This is normal in the UK, and the PE conductor had a smaller cross-section than the phase and neutral conductors.
    lasica1985 wrote:
    In my opinion, the security should be 16 A.
    And by British standards 32 amps for a ring circuit. For radial circuit 20A.
    kkas12 wrote:
    This rule is the maximum number of sockets in a circuit.
    What do you think is the appropriate number of sockets in a ring circuit? Is 100 sockets bad? a 10 Okay? If I remember correctly, the ring should not cover an area larger than 100 m², and the radial should not cover an area larger than 50 m². There is no regulation specifying the number of nests, I only found a recommendation about their sufficient number.

    It is worth remembering here that it was the English who invented electricity and ours should be adapted to their knowledge, not the other way around. Unless someone thinks that, following the example of the current government, the prezio taught them with a fork, etc.
  • #29 16326597
    fx112
    Level 9  
    So ultimately - RC simply means Ribbon Cable?
  • #30 16407320
    lasica1985
    Level 9  
    Thank you all for your help and explanation. I`m going back to learning. I`m closing the topic

Topic summary

The discussion revolves around a TN-S single-phase electrical installation in England, focusing on the proper connection of PE, N, and L wires. Participants emphasize the importance of adhering to UK electrical regulations, particularly regarding the color coding of conductors and the necessity of ensuring continuity in ring circuits. Concerns about potential overloads in circuits with multiple sockets are raised, with suggestions for proper circuit protection and the significance of regular testing. The conversation also touches on the historical context of UK electrical standards and the implications of using plugs with built-in fuses. The topic concludes with a clarification on the term "RC" in relation to ribbon cables.
Summary generated by the language model.
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