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Using a Multimeter: Testing Thyristors and Triacs - A Practical Guide

MaroX885 21891 16
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Treść została przetłumaczona polish » english Zobacz oryginalną wersję tematu
  • #1 16639779
    MaroX885
    Level 9  
    Hello. I was quite interested in the topic of checking various electronic components. Maybe I will write to the beginning what I can already do, you will have a better orientation as to whether there is a sense that I can take a look at the topic of thyristors and triacs, or I will catch it. So yes - I already know that:
    - fuses works on the so-called buzzer, if the fuse is OK, I will hear the buzzer's signal, otherwise the fuse will be fired
    - the resistor is checked in the ohmic range (ohms), the resistor's resistance value is read directly from it, i.e. the value in ohms is given on it or the resistance value from the bar code is read, the first two bars are resistive, the third bar is the multiplier and the fourth if there is a tolerance, although it may also be that the first three bars are resistance digits, the fourth is the multiplier, the fifth tolerance, and the sixth temperature coefficient
    - capacitor works on capacitance measurement (multimeter range on pF, nF or uF (whereby F, ie Farad is a basic unit), capacitance value reads directly from the capacitor, if the capacitance agrees, then the capacitor is almost certainly efficient, and almost that it is necessary to check the measured capacitor for puncture in the ohmmeter range just like a resistor, if the ohmmeter resistance value reaches infinity, it is OK, if the ohmmeter shows some specific resistance value then the capacitor is qualified for replacement because it has a punctured value dielectric, I also realize that even such measurements do not guarantee 100% efficiency of the capacitor, because you would still need to measure the ESR value of the capacitor on a special meter designed for this purpose, then we have 100% certainty that the condenser is certainly reporting of course, you should also remember about it, I should write about it at the beginning, that the capacitor should be completely discharged before any measurements, do not measure the charged capacitor, because it can cause serious damage to the multimeter
    - diode (whether rectifying, LED, Zener, Shotki, etc.) works on the diode measurement range or, as a last resort, an ohmmeter, if the diode at the plus of the multimeter to the anode and minus to the cathode has a voltage drop of about several hundred mV (millivolts), and probe vice versa there is no indication that the diode is functional, otherwise it is damaged, analogically on the ohmmeter diode at the plus of the multimeter to the anode and minus to the cathode has a very high order of megaohms, but the specific value of the resistance, and probing the reverse ohmmeter should show infinity, otherwise the diode is damaged
    - bipolar transistor (NPN and PNP) works just like a diode on the diode measurement range or, in the end, an ohmmeter, for the NPN plus multimeter transistor it is applied to the base and minus to the collector and the voltage drop is about a few hundred mV, then the minus multimeter is applied to the emitter and there should be a voltage drop of about a few hundred mV, if a transistor is built in some reverse diode, between the collector and the emitter you should also drop about a few hundred mV, if such a reverse diode does not have a transistor, of course, there should be no indication, reversing the multimeter measurement probes in all the aforementioned casesthere should be no indication, otherwise the NPN bipolar transistor is damaged, the PNP transistors are checked in the same way as the NPN only change the measuring probes, of course, on the ohmmeter bipolar transistors should behave in all the previously mentioned cases as diodes
    - the Darlington transistor works very similar to the bipolar transistor except that after inverting the multimeter probes between the base and the emitter, there should be a voltage drop of about 1.5 V, there should be nothing in the bipolar and between the collector and the emitter this time there is always a diode reversing, and thus a voltage drop of around several hundred mV, in other cases everything looks the same as in a bipolar transistor
    - JFET junctional unipolar transistor also works very much like the previous types of transistors with the difference that the base here is called a gate, collector with a drain, and the source emitter, remembering this new naming, proceed to check, the only difference between the JFET transistor and bipolar transistor besides the naming, of course, it is that between the drain (equivalent of the collector) and the source (the emitter equivalent) we have a minimum value of a hundred or a dozen or a few dozen ohms, and in the case of the JFET is normal, in the case of a bipolar transistor
    - a unipolar transistor with an insulated MOSFET gate, of course, also works on the diode or ohmmeter range, between the drain and the source when measuring probes are applied in one position there are no indications and after reversing there is a diode and voltage drop of about several hundred mV, having such probes, that there is this voltage drop of about several hundred mV, transfer the measuring probe from the source for about 3 seconds to the gate without taking the second probe from the drain and then translate again without removing the second probe from the drain from the gate to the source and then we should have a voltage drop of several dozen mV , we now attach the probe from the source to the drain and the probe from the drain to the gate for about 3 seconds, then the probe is now applied to the gate and the probe is now applied to the drain to the source and again we should have a voltage drop of about a few hundred mV, if so MOSFET transistor is j it is efficient, otherwise it is damaged
    I could write about IGBT transistors, but once I have forgotten how it works (I will remember soon and how I will write it), and two would describe it too long.

    Now, however, I will go to the subject, or how to check the thyristor and triac, or diode and diak with a multimeter in terms of efficiency and correctness. As far as I know, the thyristor is built of 4 semiconductor values in the PNPN system, where the first P (positive, i.e. . plus +) is an anode, then N (negative, i.e. minus) - there is no electrode connected, then the second P (positive, i.e., plus +) is Gate, and the second is N (negative, i.e. minus) This is my coda. Now my question is - why between the gate (P) and the cathode (N) the SCR conducts both sides of me, since it is a normal PN type semiconductor as in diodes and all kinds of transistors? I understand this behavior in the triac where two thyristors are connected antiparallel (parallel and in the opposite direction) so there (in triac) it is normal behavior,that between Gate and Anode 1 I have indications in both directions, but in the thyristor? How is it possible? Of course, measurements are made on the diode range, I have not tried on the ohmmeter yet. Theristor, which I measured was T22-10-10 like you wanted to know. When you enter this sign in google, say that it is a thyristor, and for me it works like a triac. I thought that maybe this thyristor is damaged, but I have several copies of this T22-10-10 and all behave the same, i.e. I have indications on the multimeter between the gate and the cathode on both sides in the diode range. Between anode and cathode is like everything in okay, because there are no indications either in one way or the other. If anyone of you can give me some tips then write. If the topic would be in the wrong section then please move to the appropriate department. I'm happy.
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  • #2 16639809
    DiZMar
    Level 43  
    A very good device for this and even not so expensive (they were and should be in the electrode shop link for points) is presented here
  • #3 16639857
    MaroX885
    Level 9  
    What I'm wondering the most is the strange behavior of this t22-10-10, because if it is to be a thyristor according to Google, what do I have on the multimeter both directions on the measurement range of the diode between the gate and the cathode, because it is a normal semiconductor connector PN type as in all types of diodes and transistors? Since P (positive, i.e. plus +) is the gate, and N (negative, i.e. minus -) is the cathode, it is logical to indicate the multimeter on the diode measurement range should be during the simultaneous introduction of the plus, i.e. the red cable and the red probe to gates and minus, i.e. black cable and black probe to the cathode, and here you can set the probes in reverse and there will be indications. Maybe I do not know something yet? I have no idea what this is about.
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  • #4 16639879
    Defensore.Puniti
    Level 11  
    Hello,
    You've probably exaggerated with your text here - its length - in your post.
    Before I read it - with considerable difficulty, because there is no elementary text editing in it - I lost the essence resulting from this topic.

    Certainly you will NOT check neatly with a multimeter - set to check the diodes - such a complex semiconductor device, and what is the thyristor or triac.
    For this purpose, more sophisticated methods or procedures for checking them are needed.
    I recommend recommending the relevant knowledge in monographs Professor Jerzy Luciński

    greetings
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  • #5 16640061
    MaroX885
    Level 9  
    I know that the thyristor or TRIAC I do not exactly check 100% in terms of efficiency and correctness of operation. I would need a light bulb, power supply and resistor, but it is more complicated at least for me, because you would have to choose what kind of bulb you want , set the voltage and current of the power supply and choose what resistor - what resistance and what power, and so I do not know at least so far. I am interested in just checking the thyristor and triac using a multimeter on the diode range and eventually as an ohmmeter or there is no breakage or shorting, as I call so much. I will check only on the multimeter if there is no breakdown or short circuit between individual thyristor or triac electrodes. But in order to check thyristor or triac during work under load, I agree, at least with a regular multimeter I will not check it , you need a light bulb, power supply and resistor, a I, as I mentioned before, I can not check in such a way. For even checking the ordinary bipolar transistor on the multimeter in the diode or ohm range does not guarantee 100% efficiency and correctness of operation, because that there is no breakdown or short circuit does not mean that the transistor To be 100% sure that the transistor is certainly fully functional, one should set the multimeter on the Hfe range and insert the legs of such a transistor into the appropriate socket in the Hfe multimeter. This measurement will give us 100% certainty that the transistor is For sure to find out what is the appropriate Hfe value for a given transistor, look at the transistor's catalog notice, and this can be found in Google, for example.
    What I am thinking about is the strange behavior of this thyrist which I gave in my previous posts, and the probability that it is damaged is insignificant, because I have several copies and all behave the same way, i.e. lead both ways between the gate and the cathode as well as between cathode and the goal, maybe I will write about what I mean specifically is someone will answer.
  • #6 16640110
    MARKSON43
    Level 18  
    So much was rolled, and you only have to learn how these two elements work and the school stays in your head. And most importantly, you can quickly find out if it's damaged. I have such an electronics colleague who is an elderly master, and he will learn to these times and I - although I am younger by 10 years - I can bind him to shoes. So that science, science. And on the electrode as for the basics you will not know anything. I recommend the program: PROBE but those with Kurek and Kamiński.

    https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic3333263.html#16429654
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  • Helpful post
    #7 16640215
    jarek_lnx
    Level 43  
    Quote:
    . Now my question is - why between the gate (P) and the cathode (N) the SCR conducts both sides of me, since it is a normal PN type semiconductor as in diodes and all kinds of transistors?
    Not every "ordinary" pn junction is a good rectifier diode, besides it encounters structural variants of thyristors in which this junction is bypassed by a resistance.

    Thyristor is not the only case like this.
    In high voltage transistors, especially those in the Darlington system, parallel to the BE connector, built-in resistors meet, by examining such a transistor with a multimeter you could consider it faulty.

    The power germanium transistors had such zero currents that you could find it faulty when testing the efficient transistor with a multimeter.

    Quote:
    I know that the thyristor or TRIAC I do not exactly check 100% in terms of efficiency and correctness of operation. I would need a light bulb, power supply and resistor, but it is more complicated at least for me, because you would have to choose what kind of bulb you want , set the voltage and current of the power supply and choose what resistor - what resistance and what power, and so I do not know as at least so far.
    The thyristor in the TO-220 casing or bigger will certainly withstand 1-2A it is not difficult to find such a bulb or resistor, I need only a current limitation in the laboratory power supply, and I enclose shorting the anode with the gate.


    Quote:
    ... possibly also a dynasty and diak with a multimeter in terms of efficiency and correctness of operation.
    These elements to be connected require a much higher voltage than the multimeter, connected to the multimeter should not lead, you can build a relaxation generator with a diac - three elements diac resistor, capacitor and power supply - quite high, a diacter such as DB-4 may require> 45V.
  • #8 16640280
    MaroX885
    Level 9  
    That's just the answer - more or less - I expected what jarek_lnx gave. Now, I'm beginning to understand why this is happening with this PN connector between the gate and the cathode. So just between the gate (P) and the cathode (N) is built in some internal resistor, which causes such at first glance strange readings from the multimeter, do you think well?
    I've heard something about some emitter resistors built into Darlington transistors specifically adapted to audio, I mean SAP15 and SAP16, which have five leads - the emitter resistor is derived in them between the fourth and the fifth leg (counting from the left) for the transistor type NPN (unfortunately I do not remember if the NPN transistor was SAP15 or SAP16), and for the PNP transistor between the fourth and the fifth leg, but counting from the right side.
    In other words, counting from the left between the first and the second leg, such a mirror image. Is it probably made so that it would be easier and more convenient to combine paths on PCBs, well "I'm combo"?

    Edit: I would forget. I also thank the user jarek_lnx for the hint about the dyers and deacs. Here I was thinking similarly, that measuring the diodes and diacs should not be any readings on the multimeter, because the diagnists and diacs do not have a gate.
    While the dynastor is such a thyristor without a gate, diak is similarly a triac that has no outbound gate.
    As if you could jarek_lnx, answer this or my direction of thinking is good for these built-in resistors as well as these dynares and diacs.
  • Helpful post
    #9 16640673
    KaW
    Level 34  
    A handy instrument for measuring transistors and low power thyristors
    instrument with a pointer indicator with an ohmmeter supplied from a voltage source
    in the order of 4.5 V. It would be ineffective to have some voltage and direct current supply.
  • Helpful post
    #10 16640727
    jarek_lnx
    Level 43  
    MaroX885 wrote:
    Just this answer I expected more or less what jarek_lnx gave. Now I am beginning to understand why this happens with this PN junction between the gate and the cathode. Just between the gate (P) and the cathode (N) there is an internal resistor built in causes such strange readings from the multimeter at first glance, do you think well? I've heard something about some emitter resistors built into Darlington Tactoyp transducers specifically for audio, I mean SAP15 and SAP16, which have five pins - the emitter resistor is derived in them between the fourth and fifth leg (counting from the left) for the transistor type NPN (unfortunately I do not remember if the NPN transistor was SAP15 or SAP16), and for the PNP transistor between the fourth and fifth legs, but counting from the right side, i.e. as if counting from the left between the first and second legs, such a mirror image. it's probably made to make it easier and more convenient to connect paths on PCBs, I "combine" well?


    Such resistors in Darlington's transistors meet not only in audio, this resistor accelerates switching off the output transistor,
    examples:

    http://rtellason.com/transdata/bdv64.pdf
    http://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/cd00001177.pdf
    http://www.ineltron.de/english/mitsubishi-data/transistor/QM50DY-H.pdf
    Or in single transistors:
    http://www.remcomplekt.ru/datasheet/1-pdf/trz/BU508D.PDF

    A transistor or thyristor with such a resistor is more resistant to unfavorable operating conditions such as high temperatures together with high voltage when larger leakage currents flow, or high voltage ramp up voltages that can include thyristor. The actual structures rather do not contain separate resistors, eg a thyristor with a compact emitter
    https://www.google.com/patents/EP0035841A2?cl=en
    https://books.google.pl/books?id=RCPvBwAAQBAJ...ved=0ahUKEwiO9drx-tTVAhWNaVAKHf3dAAkQ6AEIKzAB
    http://www.google.co.id/patents/US4456920


    MaroX885 wrote:
    Edit: I would forget. Thank you jarek_lnx for the hint about the dynares and deacs. I was thinking similarly, that measuring diapers and diacs should not be any readings on the multimeter, because the dyots and diacs do not have a gate. it's like a thyristor without a lead-up, it's like a triac like that without a gantry. If you could jarek_lnx, answer this or my direction of thinking is good for these built-in resistors as well as those dyadors and diacs.
    Yes - the meter will not show anything
  • #11 16640907
    MaroX885
    Level 9  
    jarek_lnx wrote:
    A transistor or thyristor with such a resistor is more resistant to unfavorable operating conditions such as; high temperatures along with high voltage when larger leakage currents or high voltage ramps that can switch on the thyristor.
    That's what I understand.

    jarek_lnx wrote:
    The actual structures rather do not contain separate resistors, e.g. a thyristor with a compact emitter
    I do not know what you meant here. Could you bring this topic closer?

    jarek_lnx wrote:
    Yes - the meter will not show anything.
    Well, though here my intuition did not disappoint me.
    Thank you for confirming my thinking, but he was good.
  • #12 16641034
    KaW
    Level 34  
    A good habit is to use transistor cards and other electronic products. Now it will be more difficult to find some electronic details in the old form - having a form that can be connected manually.
    The SMD technique has already entered and the dimensions of the details are getting smaller and smaller.
    In your personal interest you should take care of your eyesight and its efficiency - use magnifying glasses, etc. auxiliary elements.
  • #13 16642000
    jarek_lnx
    Level 43  
    Quote:
    I do not know what you meant here. Could you bring this topic closer?
    In the links I gave, among others patent describing a thyristor with a compact emitter - the silicon layer connected to the gate has many "tunnels" connecting it with the cathode.
    https://www.google.com/patents/EP0035841A2?cl=en
  • #14 16642032
    vodiczka
    Level 43  
    DiZMar wrote:
    A very good device for this and even not so expensive (they were and should be in the Link shop for points) is presented here
    Not so good if it can "make" transistor or resistor from thyristor or triac :)
  • #15 16642099
    MaroX885
    Level 9  
    I found something like this today, link below. I am describing that there is an internal resistor (Rgk) between the gate and the cathode, which shunts some of the leakage current to counter false triggering. It is a path with low resistance between the gate and the cathode, conducting internal leakage currents and external noise currents. Thanks to it, the interference bypasses the cathode connector and does not cause unwanted activation of the thyristor. Therefore, I am inclining more and more towards what Jarek_lnx wrote that an internal built-in resistor causes such strange at first sight behavior of the thyristor during measurements with a multimeter. What do you think? I will try to find something else about it.


    http://www.serwis-elektroniki.com.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/73_06_4.pdf

    Edit: I have yet to find something here about this topic, link below

    http://www.bryk.pl/wypracowania/pozostale/elektrotechnika/14665-wszystko-o-tyrystorach.html
  • #16 16644545
    Marian B
    Level 38  
    For quick checking of thyristors and many other things, I recommend this simple device.
    https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic585361.html#3025148
    It can be used not only to check electronic components, but also to sacrifice, for example, in the dark nooks of some (repaired) device, and also on dark stairs.

    This "flashlight" was invented by me at a time when in general use were TVs with thyristors in the final stage of the line, and in electronic security of these degrees, such as Polish Jupiter, Neptune, or Soviet Rubin C202.
    It's useful all the time now.
  • #17 16650879
    MaroX885
    Level 9  
    Hello, after a longer break. I know that probably no one is here anymore and nobody is watching this subject, but if I think I could solve the riddle with these thyristors, i.e. come to why I have these "strange" indications on multimeter on the diode range while measuring these thyristors. So, I tried to measure several other types of thyristors with my multimeter, which I have on the diode range and of course it was the same, i.e., pointing to both sides, but when I switched to an ohmmeter it turned out that it was there built-in some internal resistor, which is derived from the gate and cathode legs and it probably shunts the PN-type semiconductor connector between the gate (P) and the cathode (N) causing such "strange" behavior at first sight. Using a multimeter on the range ohmmeter is a PN type semiconductor connector between the gate (P) and the cathode (N) I received the following results:
    - on this Thyristor T-22-10-10 what I measured before I received about 120 ohms (exactly it was about 116-118 ohms)
    - on another thyristor, I will not give the name, because I have already lost the subtitles about 80 ohms (exactly about 77-78 ohms)
    - on yet another, I do not remember the sign anymore, I'm sorry, I received about 10 ohms (exactly, it's about 10.5-11 ohms)

    I also think that the matter (I think) solved and the topic to close. In case you have any questions for me please write to PW.Pozdrawiam.

Topic summary

The discussion revolves around the use of multimeters for testing thyristors and triacs, with participants sharing their experiences and insights. The initial query highlights the user's existing knowledge of testing basic components like fuses, resistors, and capacitors, and seeks guidance on checking thyristors and triacs. Responses emphasize that while multimeters can be used for basic checks, such as identifying shorts or open circuits, they are insufficient for comprehensive testing of these complex semiconductor devices. Participants suggest that specialized methods or additional equipment, such as a light bulb, power supply, and resistors, are necessary for effective testing under load conditions. The conversation also touches on the internal resistors present in thyristors that can lead to misleading multimeter readings, and the importance of understanding the operational principles of these components for accurate diagnostics.
Summary generated by the language model.
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