Control / setting of underfloor heating and radiators (mixed).

Hello,

At the outset, I would like to mention that I have already read a lot and basically only the floor heating mixing set does not give me peace. Control with a weather sensor and curves seems quite reasonable, but I don't know if the mixing valve and thermostat will get along with it. Details below:
1. Stove: Ariston Class One 24kW - dual-function without a tray
2. Heating, two manifolds. Bottom pump with a mixing valve, top distributor for radiators and underfloor heating in the bathroom with return + RTL.
- whole bottom: floor covering with Emmeti TM3 mixer, 6 circuits. A total of around 55 m2. 2x living room, kitchen, office, bathroom and vestibule.

- top: 3 rooms on radiators with thermostats, bathroom, ladder with a thermostat, plus a floor on the return from radiators with RTL
3. Semi-detached house, 110m2, porotherm 24 + polystyrene 15, ceiling insulated with wool 25
4. In the living room there is a fireplace without a mantle

I do not have any detectors, internal thermostats or external sensor. The cottage was already equipped with the system as above. I was thinking about retrofitting the stove with a weather sensor and mastering the heating curve to maintain a constant temperature inside. Unfortunately, something tells me that the underfloor heating system is set with a thermostat to a rigid type and the weather with a selected curve will not help. The installer, unfortunately, of the old date and any changes to the heating system, says "Paaanie, it's just throwing money down the drain". The second option is heating with a stove for radiators, thermostats unscrewed to the maximum and manual regulation of the thermostat from the floor heating. A weather sensor will probably also be useful here.

I will be grateful for advice on how to effectively master this type of heating.

Regards.

It cannot be done effectively
It is only possible by trial and error to find a heating curve that will suit the users best. Of course, you need a weather regulator with an outside temperature sensor. You need to set the heating curve for radiators so as to ensure the right temperature for radiators, because for the floor heating, there will be any mixing in the floor manifold. In the same system as you have installed, unfortunately, the weather regulation will not be implemented for the floor heating, because, as you have already noticed, here you have thermostatic - constant temperature regulation. You can only find your favorite temperature to influence the op so that it gives the right room temperature. Probably it will have to be corrected with a change in the outside temperature - if the outside temperature drops significantly, raise the temperature to the op and vice versa, if the outside temperature is higher, lower the temperature to the op
Unfortunately, this is a very common solution used by plumbers / installers. And many users later stay with the proverbial hand in the potty.

There is one more solution - mounting the op control system with wired (if already wired) or wireless thermostats - eg Danfoss Link. You can also connect with heaters through electronic heads, but a weather-compensated boiler is still recommended so that the boiler works with the lowest possible water temperature in the central heating.

And the external detector itself is not enough? This furnace already has a connection for an external temperature sensor and selection of control using this sensor. The very process of selecting the curve as below?
- I choose the external sensor control in the furnace option,
- I choose a curve,
- I set the Auto options,
- radiator thermostats open to the max,
- controls whether the temperature in rooms with radiators is constant at night and in the morning?

I will be grateful for the bladders. I have licked a bit about the topic, but it is still not enough

Unfortunately, I do not know Ariston's boilers and automatics.
Some boiler manufacturers, such as Termet, can only connect an external temperature sensor. and setting the heating curve from the boiler level.
Some manufacturers, such as Vaillant, the outdoor temperature sensor works only with the weather regulator.
Maybe you can find it in the manual or write a question to Ariston's technical department, and maybe they will tell you something.

It looks like the external sensor itself will come. In addition, in Emmeti's manual, they mention something about an "electric servomotor" instead of a thermostatic head for this kit. Do you know something more about this type of solutions? Nice price ...

You see - now you have the option of expanding the water mixing in the floor heating as a function of the outside temperature. Unfortunately, you have to buy an actuator and a regulator. Unfortunately, the price of the Emmeti company set is high, but you can always buy an Emmeti actuator (so that it fits the mixing valve in the cabinet with an op manifold) and a mixing valve controller from a Polish manufacturer, e.g. Tech Controllers, such as:
https://www.techsterźniki.pl/products/sterźniki-do-zaworow-śmieajacych/st-430
such:
https://www.techsterźniki.pl/products/sterźniki-do-zaworow-śmieajacych/st-431n-1
or such:
https://www.techsterźniki.pl/products/sterźniki-do-zaworow-śmieajacych/i-1
Both of them have the option of weather-related regulation and, additionally, the possibility of room regulation after using a room thermostat, and even some of them have the option of WiFi control

Thanks for pointing.

In this case, the following items will be necessary?
- to the stove: weather station,
- to the pump: valve, controller and weather?

Will the controller go and connect the stove to one weather station?

Unfortunately, it is impossible to connect the controller and the boiler (stove) to one weather station.
The boiler will have its own weather forecast and the underfloor heating controller will have its own.

You need:
- to the boiler (furnace): weather, i.e. external temperature sensor.
- for underfloor heating: controller (one of the Techs) and an actuator.

The Tech controller (any) already has sensors: external temperature and the temperature of the water flowing in the pipe. The actuator must be ~ 230V, 3-point controlled, i.e. either the original Emmeti, but when you look at the photos on the Emmeti website, it is a Siemens SSA31 actuator and here you have its price: http://www.skleparmatura.pl/siemens/elektryczne -1 / 46149.html

On the boiler, you set the heating curve so that it is good for the radiators at the top, and on the Tech controller you set the heating curve so that it is good at the bottom, where the underfloor heating is.

It looks promising. May it work out :)

Thank you for your help!

Here you have the installation and operating instructions for your underfloor manifold. It shows two diagrams (page 6) when there is a thermostatic control (like yours) and automatic control - what you would like to have. In both cases, the boiler operates individually on the radiators.
Link

So the assumptions regarding the double weather box and the controller with the floor valve are correct. For 2 weeks I was learning and I know all these instructions almost by heart. Worse with understanding.

I still don't understand how to adjust item 6. Calibration valve and bypass. From what I can see it doesn't set up automatically. How to set it up? Is there any minimum flow temperature for this mixing system?

Generally, this bypass valve should be roughly matched to the power of your floor heating. As in the table on page 10. You have ~ 55 m2 of floor heating. It gives an average of 50W / 1m2, i.e. the power of your system is ~ 2750W. This table shows that the bypass setting should be 0. Alternatively, if you had separately closed floor loops by thermal actuators, this bypass valve could be opened a little more.

I tried to count something too, and in general it turned out that set 0 will be the most appropriate. The height of the rise is 2.8 m for 2750 W, the flow is about 0.5 m3 / h. At 4000W 3.1m3 and 0.75m3 / h. Looking at the pump characteristics

2nd gear comes out on the pump with a slight margin.

Did I do well?

PS. This flow setting is 0-5 I physically turn the key?

There should probably be a hole for an Allen key, but I don't know if there are any indications.

It looks like an adjustment with an open-end wrench. Does it set manually or does it turn by itself?

A flat wrench indeed. I've never physically seen it - only in the diagrams. You have to manually spin, just there should be some reference point / mark somewhere.

Looking from the front, there is a dash at 3 o'clock. So everything is correct. It's time to buy a heater for the stove, play with the curves for the radiators and see if everything works Later, it's time for a solenoid valve and a driver for the floor. Of course I will let you know up to date.

I am waiting impatiently for this floor heating solution + actuator + controller

And this is some innovative solution, may not work? Do not scare!

Another issue of flow.
50 W x 55 m2 x 0.86 / 5'C = 473 l / h

I have 6 loops, which are:
473/6 = 78.83 l / h average per loop

The flow meters are in l / min
78.83 l / h i.e. 1.32 l / min

It follows that on average, all flow meters should be approx. 1.5 l / min. The lifting was 2.8m, so I can set the pump to 3 (it will be with a tail )

In fact, the topic has probably been exhausted. Of course, the plumber who started it set the system wrong. The pump pushed to the maximum, and the bypass was at 3 instead of 0. It will warm up a little in the hut and I will start to set the flow to the desired temperature. The flow should be possibly reduced with the flow meter or the regulator on the lower beam?

Please let me know if my reasoning is correct.

Everything should be OK.

Regulate the flow with the flow meters. The lower knobs are for shutting off or mounting thermal actuators.

Cool. I was a bit worried when I was able to set the flow to a maximum of ~ 2l / min on all loops at the same time.

The heating has already been coming a bit and I have a few more nuisances. I heated on open radiator thermostats with a lower temperature (ala weather system), but I noticed that the thermostat on the floor was not able to release water at the set temperature. It turned out that the minimum temperature of water in the central heating in front of the OP mixer is 55'C (instructions for the floor set) ... I set the stove to 50'C, the thermostats on the radiators to about 2.5 and the floor to 25-27'C. In each room I have around 20-21'C with a slight negative outside. After a few days, I noticed that the stove turned at 100% power until it whistled. I guess it's because of the "cold" water on the floor. Momentarily gets 20'C on the return and turns on 100% of the power. I reduced the furnace power to 30% (7kW, minimum modulated power around 3kW) and slow firing to 40%. It still turns on at full power (now 30%), then modulates to minimum and pops a minute or two. In connection with the above, I have two questions:

1. does it make sense to use weather control? The minimum supply of the OP is 50-55'C. When supplying 40'C CO, I set, for example, 25'C on the floor thermostat, and it pulls out a maximum of 20'C. Probably a setting around 30-35'C would give the OP power around 25'C.
2. Will the modulating room sensor (installed in the room with the heater) stabilize the stove to some extent?

Probably weatherproof for the stove and the floor with a solenoid valve, it would be able to get some 30'C on the OP supply at the temperature of the stove around 40'C with the valve almost fully open, but it's probably too much electronics and costs.

PS when I had the radiator thermostats opening and the temperature at 40'C CO, the heaters on top were cold. As if the stove was not pumping water upwards. Only after I gave 45'C, something started and something started to heat up. At what difference of supply and return does the stove heat?

I added a Salus room thermostat to the boiler and the frequent switching on was over. Now it turns on for an hour, and then rests for more than an hour. The temperature in the house drops very slowly. Also a fairy tale I have an actuator and a controller with a weather cap to the floor, but so far I have not connected to the mixer. The stove turns on the pump for 15 minutes after the end of heating, but it is possible, due to the flooring, to turn it on permanently.

At -5'C, strong wind and 45'C on the stove, he puffed for 2 hours to heat up from 19.5 to 20 in the bedroom. Unfortunately, the floor thermostat is not overwhelming at all and at the bottom I have barely 18'C, despite the fact that the thermostat is set to 30'C. This thermostat takes effect only at 55 on the boiler. The only option is the actuator, which will open the valve for a larger flow of the cooler medium and will close when the boiler is heated.

Actuator with driver mounted to 3-way valve and tested. It works nicely. No weather so far, I haven't penetrated the bedroom wall yet After firing up the stove and the inflow of hot water, the valve closes and stably maintains the set temperature. After the stove is turned off and the temperature of the medium drops, it gradually opens up to 100%. There is no point in walking the pump in the furnace for more than 15 minutes. Later, the factor is already cooled down, so only the pump from the floor heating system works. On the stove, I changed the CO temperature from 45 to 50, because the stove turned off before it warmed up the room with a room thermostat to 20'C (heated with radiators). It was 0'C outside with no wind. Actually, I see minimal use in adding a weather conditioner. I already bought it, so I'll mount it. I will have to make sure that the room heats up to the time set before the stove turns off and that's it. In addition, limit the upper range of CO to 55 and I will probably be able to forget about heating

Now it has occurred to me that a well-done mixed system must rather have a hydraulic clutch. The figure below shows such an arrangement. In addition, the usual on / off thermostat for radiators, including the stove and pump, and some smarter thermostat for the floor, doing the same (both rather in a northern room). The systems can heat together and separately. My system only heats up together, so I have to harmonize it well so that I can heat up the radiator top and the floor bottom at the same time.


source

The heating season has started and I rather have the target setting. The principle is simple - the floor heating must heat up at the same time as the radiators heat up. At the top, where the heaters are, there is an on / off thermostat. Currently, the CO temperature is 45'C (no super frosts), at the top there is a thermostat at 20.8 with a hysteresis of 0.5. At hysteresis 1, the floor heating was too cold, it was also without a scarf at the top. The groats and the cold alternately. Three-way valve with an actuator set at 35'C for floor heating. It holds around 21 at the top and 22 at the bottom. Dol cools down more slowly and the floor holds warmth elegantly. The difference is definitely felt, a plus for the OP. I can't think of anything more sensible here. I also reduced the boiler power to 30% to extend the heating time - heat accumulation in the floor.

Hello, please help. Enclosed is my cupboard with a floorstand . Frosts have started and I don't really know how to set it up for thermal comfort. New two-level apartment, downstairs - 80 m2 heated entirely with floor heating, upwards about 50 m2 with radiators. Heating from the municipal network, so I do not have any stove. From the developer, there is a temperature controller, independent of the floor heating, it is installed in each apartment. Unfortunately, the floor heating installer recommended that the temperature regulator should be placed at the top, where there are only radiators. And now I have a problem, because I do not really know how to set it, if, for example, in the upper bedroom I only need 19 degrees and downstairs I would like 21. It seems pointless or I do not understand something. So I turned off the regulator and I control the floor heating manually by unscrewing the thermostatic valve in the cabinet. The leaving water temperature to the floor is currently set to 25 so the floor is cooler, giving the bottom temperature at outdoor temp. approx -3, 19-20 degrees. The flows were set to 2. I had a specialist at my place and he recommended that I install some wifi connected actuators (because now it is impossible to do otherwise) with temperature regulators in each room where there is a floor heating, and at the top regulate the radiator thermostats. It seems to me from what I read that after all, the automatic floor regulation would be less expensive than when it comes to non-stop operation, even at low temperature, am I wrong? Is it worth installing these regulators in each of the rooms, or maybe some new regulator instead from the developer, who would have wifi and read the temperature from the other one downstairs and the floor heating would also work? I hope that the attached photo will explain a lot to you and you will be able to advise me, because for now I am reading and I don't think I understand it anymore ...

You have not shown in the picture yet what type of thermostat / controller you have to control the underfloor heating installed on the top. It probably does turn on / off the pump - here we also do not know how it is connected. If it's wired, either move it downstairs - add a cable, or replace it with a wireless one. But as I mentioned - you have to see how it is connected.

A separate matter is the regulation of the entire floor heating. The system used gives only constant temperature control, i.e. one constant temperature of water in the floor heating. Sometimes this is enough for users, and sometimes unfortunately not, because with the changing outside temperature, the water temperature in the OP should change so as to ensure adequate comfort - it is reg. weather, but this is a greater interference in the hydraulic + electric system (the need to lead the electric cable outside to connect the external temperature sensor).

Attached - mixing temperature controller. It is not assigned to the underfloor heating system, but generally to heating in the apartment. I have the regulation of the floor heating itself in the cupboard. It's turned off for now. I do not understand what exactly its operation will be if I connect it. If, for example, I would move it downstairs where the floor heating is and set it to a specific temperature, how will it regulate it? circulating water? or will it regulate the flows? Do I think well, in this situation that I have now, i.e. the floor heating works non-stop at 25 degrees, that it consumes a lot more energy than it would run from the controller - i.e. the water would heat up, I guess it will be on more power, but only for a certain time. Will I increase the temperature in this room by increasing the flow on the loop in a given room, assuming unchanged outlet temperature?