Leaking Safety Valve in Vitodens 200 & Vitocell 100 System: SYR 6 Bar, Reflex Vessel 8L

Hello,

the safety valve in my installation leaks. A standard problem can be said, but I would like to advise you and resolve this issue. Maybe I'll start with the installation description:
- terraced house, installation made about 9.5 years ago.
- Vitodens 200 with Vitocell 100 (120L).
- safety valve Syr 6 bar 3/4 ", Reflex vessel 8L, all kinds of valves.

Here are the photos:



About two years ago I noticed (it may have been before, but I just didn't pay attention) that the valve is leaking. I removed the insert and cleaned it, but it did not help. It was quite stony, so I thought it needed to be replaced. It was some over 1.5 years ago. I bought a new one, it seemed better for some time. But it is still leaking. I have a pressure gauge, so at the time I mentioned, I noticed that the pressure in the network was higher than at the beginning of residence. I wrote to the waterworks asking how it is and whether it has increased. I got the answer that they were modernizing and hence the pressure is higher, from 4.8 to 5.4, although as the pressure gauge (photo) shows is even higher at night. Thus, according to the valve manufacturer's specifications:
"The permissible tolerance for safety valves is + 10% and -20%. This means that the valve with a setting pressure of 6 bar will open fully at 6.6 bar, but will close at the latest when the system pressure drops to 4.8 bar In order to ensure proper operation of the system, the maximum pressure in the system must be at least 20% lower than the safety valve setting pressure to prevent the open valve from closing completely (continuous leakage of water from the valve which ends in damage to the valve seal). "
As I understand, de facto the valve may leak, because the network pressure is often higher than 4.8 bar, right? And even without heating? Hence the questions:
1. What is the best way to do this? Apply a reducer? Or maybe I could, for example, replace the valve with a higher denomination, e.g. 7 bar? I checked the instructions from the heater, and this says about the permissible operating pressure of 10 bar, does it mean that the valve can have a higher setting?
2. If the regulator, what pressure should be set? And what reducer or are those from Syra good? The problem may be with the place where to insert it, because the entry of water into the house is in the garage and on the pipes there is not much space.

I have to do something because I can't have an ever-wet boiler room. And draining water from the valve, as you can see, I do not have.

And one more thing - a diaphragm vessel. I used to check the pressure in it (I turned off the water supply, turned on the water at the nearest point so that there was no pressure and in such conditions I pumped up and measured) and pumped up to 4 bar, because it was a bit smaller. The dish looks ok, no water flowed from the valve when I pressed it. What worries or wonders me is that if you turn on the water somewhere in the house and "close" the battery, the needle on the pressure gauge jumps. You can hear such a blow on it, and as I understand thanks to the dish, it should not be like this. What is going on?

Thanks in advance for any answers,
greetings,
grzesiek

Reading all this argument, I would install a pressure reducer on the supply of the entire building. Why the installation, batteries, and especially appliances such as washing machine, dishwasher stove?

kenhor wrote:

I have to do something because I can't have an ever-wet boiler room. And draining water from the valve, as you can see, I do not have.

And this need as much advice on the forum to put on an elbow and a piece of hose, to direct water even to a bucket, if there is no chance to drain into the sewage system?

kenhor wrote:

I got the answer that they were modernizing and hence the pressure is higher, and it ranges from 4.8 to 5.4, although as the pressure gauge (photo) shows is even higher at night

If I were you, I would replace toilet hoses, taps etc. from popular steel braided ones to all steel ones, which would reduce the risk of such a hose breaking and flooding the cottage.
I do not know the standards regarding the pressure of cold water in the home installation, but I would assume that since the installation has a maximum of 3 bar, I would use a 3 bar reducer.

I don't have a reducer in my apartment, because the tap water that reaches me has a pressure of about 2 bar.
This has an advantage, because even if I open the valve in the gas boiler, filling it to the maximum (simulating its damage), the maximum pressure level will be 2.0 bar.
Even after hypothetical heating of water in which I will not exceed the limit values, so there is no risk that the safety valve will work
In this case, like mine, the valve can work as a result of a lack of pressure in the diaphragm vessel or as a result of damage to the valve itself.

But the pressure of 2 bar for zwu also has its "minuses". On a 24kW 2-function gas boiler, the maximum hot water flow was about 9.5l / min despite the valve opening to the boiler and the tap to the max, although the boiler itself has a capacity of about 11.5l / min for delta t = 30.

Summarizing:
Changing the safety valve to a stronger one means removing the effects, i.e. the valve may stop leaking, but this will not protect you from the possibility of bursting of flexible hoses or other damage to fittings sensitive to such spikes and pressure values.
To sum up, for me, an reducer is the only sensible solution to your problem, because you eliminate the cause, so you solve the problem comprehensively.

stanislaw1954 wrote:

And this need as much advice on the forum to put on an elbow and a piece of hose, to direct water even to a bucket, if there is no chance to drain into the sewage system?

I'm not an expert, so I'd rather ask. I saw various threads on the net, where different types of elbows and snakes were critically criticized. It was about the material it was made of, reducing the cross section etc. So it is not so trivial, I do not even know if such things are practiced at all.

BUCKS wrote:

If I were you, I would replace toilet hoses, taps etc. from popular steel braided ones to all steel ones, which would reduce the risk of such a hose breaking and flooding the cottage.
I do not know the standards regarding the pressure of cold water in the home installation, but I would assume that since the installation has a maximum of 3 bar, I would use a 3 bar reducer.

It's not that bad, it's probably all hoses to be replaced. As far as I know, the standards say:
"The water pressure in the building's water supply system, except for fire hydrants, should be not less than 0.05 MPa (0.5 bar) and not more than 0.6 MPa (6 bar) before each draw-off point."
So I would say that everything is according to the norm. I would add that the answer from the waterworks spoke about these differences depending on the season of the year and hence the demand. In addition, transmission losses, etc. So it's not that the jumps are all the time, while changes, e.g. at different times of the day, are definitely there, because I see it on the pressure gauge.

As for the recommendation to use a reducer, I assume.
I will wait for maybe additional votes, also regarding the described issue of the dish.

thanks

kenhor wrote:

I saw various threads on the net, where different types of elbows and snakes were critically criticized

If the designer / manufacturer has invented / applied a thread in the valve outlet, then you can screw something there. It is important not to reduce the cross-section so that the valve drains freely when the valve is activated.

kenhor wrote:

It was about the material it was made of, reducing the cross section etc. So it is not so trivial, I do not even know if such things are practiced at all.

In an emergency, if you do not have a sewer approach, you can use a short hose + bucket, etc.
You have a problem with the circuit to which the 120l tank and waterworks are connected, so if the safety valve operates, the bucket may turn out to be too small, although if you have a choice it's better to have something than nothing.

kenhor wrote:

It's not that bad, it's probably all hoses to be replaced. As far as I know, the standards say:

Standards standards, but if you have steel hoses, if you do not mechanically damage them, they can be considered eternal.
The rubber can break by itself, and if you have pressure surges then you can treat it as a preventive measure, not an obligation.
I don't know about you, but I only had 3 outlets with rubber hoses, so the costs were relatively small.
I exchanged two points for steel ones, and only the washing machine was left with rubber, because the steel hose would be exposed to mechanical damage.

kenhor wrote:

"The water pressure in the building's water supply system, except for fire hydrants, should be not less than 0.05 MPa (0.5 bar) and not more than 0.6 MPa (6 bar) before each draw-off point."

As you wrote, the maximum pressure should not exceed 6 bar. Therefore, I recommend using a reducer and setting it to a pressure of about 5 bar. This protects you from pressure surges as well as damage from e.g. thermostatic faucets (some manufacturers of such faucets recommend a pressure of 5 bar maximum). It will probably also cause that the safety valve will not be exposed to pressure on the border of the setting.

ta_tar wrote:

This protects you from pressure surges as well as damage e.g. thermostatic faucets (some manufacturers of such faucets recommend a pressure of 5 bar maximum)

If the battery manufacturer sets 5 bar as the maximum, it is always better to set the pressure below the maximum value, i.e. 4 bar.
At home I have 2 bar and if I had the opportunity to adjust it, I would set myself a bit more to provide a slightly larger flow of hot water in a 2-function gas boiler, because otherwise I do not need more pressure.

Have you ever checked this diaphragm vessel? It is not a coincidence that after heating the water in the tank, when there is no water intake, the pressure rises and then the safety valve passes? The pressure in the diaphragm vessel must be controlled and topped up.

hello, mate, you write that water does not flow out of the container when you press the valve, but whether air flows out then, if not the vessel to be replaced. greetings.

roman 18 wrote:

hello, mate, you write that water does not flow out of the container when you press the valve, but whether air flows out then, if not the vessel to be replaced. greetings.

Yes, it's flying out. As I wrote, I pumped up to 4 bar a year ago and it increased as it was pumped. You can now press the valve and it will run away.

kenhor wrote:

As I wrote, I pumped up to 4 bar a year ago and it increased as it was pumped

The test consists of checking whether the air escapes is not 100% reliable, because you may have problems not only because of the damaged diaphragm but also because the air pressure in the vessel is too low.
Therefore, it is worth monitoring the pressure of the diaphragm vessel itself, whether it can maintain air pressure, if not try replacing the valve.
You check the pressure in the vessel when there is no pressure in the water system, i.e. the water system cannot exert pressure on the diaphragm in the diaphragm vessel, because the car pressure reading will not be reliable.

I only have practice with the vessel for what but it would be worth determining what pressure in the vessel would be recommended for your conditions.

I will check the pressure, because it is good to do it once a year. From what I associate the recommendations are that without a regulator, the pressure in the vessel is set 0.5 bar lower than the minimum pressure in the network. I remember that I set about 4 bar, but now I have to look at what is minimal. I do not know what experts recommend - whether to set according to the average daily pressure, say, or if the min was observed.

Given your pressure of 4.8-5.4 bar, and at night even more, I would set about 4.5 bar as the initial pressure.
As I said, I have no practice with hot water utensils, but I glanced at Reflex's instructions and there is an interesting fragment:

Quote:

Caution at pressures> 4 bar! If required
higher inlet pressure than factory set to 4 bar,
please proceed as follows:
1. fill the Refix vessel until the pressure builds up
up to 5 bar
2. Cut the Refix from the water side
3. set gas pressure 1 bar higher than desired
pre inlet pressure after
4. Open the shut-off valve / shut-off valves from the side
water

It seems that the practice with a vessel for which has little to do with what is near hot water

a very simple matter it should look like this pressure reducer - 8 bar safety valve - inlet to the exchanger with a double check valve - diaphragm vessel with a 3 bar valve each valve should have a basket

vipert wrote:

a very simple matter

Do you think that for almost 3 years they have not found a solution? ??