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[Solved] Title: Pouring Concrete on Concrete: Techniques for Strong Foundation with Slope & Water Resistance

minimaxi 29556 17
Best answers

How can I pour a second layer of concrete onto an existing concrete footing so it bonds as well as possible and stays resistant to water and frost?

Roughen the old concrete first by chiseling or scratching off the weak surface layer to expose the stronger concrete and aggregate, then rinse away the dust and pour the new layer onto that prepared base [#17473828][#17474761] Do not expect a perfect chemical bond between old and new concrete unless you use special repair concrete; in practice this will be a cold joint, which is generally acceptable for a low fence foundation [#17474659] The main long-term risk is water getting into the joint and freezing, so after curing seal the seam with a flexible adhesive/sealant such as Sikaflex 11FC [#17473828][#17482115] If the weather is cold, use a plasticizer as well [#17474761]
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Treść została przetłumaczona polish » english Zobacz oryginalną wersję tematu
  • #1 17473767
    minimaxi
    Level 15  
    There is a concrete footing under the front fence, flush with the ground, sometimes lower because the upper part of the ditch was wide. I put vertical wires. Then I made the formwork and now I want to pour concrete on the final foundation - from a height of 10 to 40 cm and a width of 20 cm - steps, because there is a slope of the terrain. What to do so that after a month the concrete placed on concrete catches the best and does not absorb water and does not blow up? Need some ground or something else?
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  • #2 17473828
    saskia
    Level 39  
    minimaxi wrote:
    There is a concrete footing under the front fence, flush with the ground, sometimes lower because the upper part of the ditch was wide. I put vertical wires. Then I made the formwork and now I want to pour concrete on the final foundation - from a height of 10 to 40 cm and a width of 20 cm - steps, because there is a slope of the terrain. What to do so that after a month the concrete placed on concrete catches the best and does not absorb water and does not blow up? Need some ground or something else?


    On top of each screed comes something like cement milk, which after drying is quite weak and often crumbles, because it usually dries the fastest and does not make a good bond as cement in deeper layers.
    If you poke the surface a bit, some of it will chip away, exposing the stronger concrete underneath and some of the aggregate. in addition, you will have a rougher surface (larger contact area) which also gives better adhesion to the new concrete.
    After such chiseling, rinse the dust thoroughly with water and then pour new concrete on top of it.
    After the concrete has dried, you can additionally seal the joint with an adhesive such as sikaflex 11FC.
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  • #3 17474659
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
  • #4 17474761
    zimny8
    Level 33  
    When is the concrete poured into the excavation?, if it has already hardened, do as Saskia's colleague writes, if not, you can "scratch" the surfaces, e.g. with a reinforcing bar.
    I've done so many times and nothing has ever broken.
    How deep a trench, what specific fence?
    Watch out for frosts, it was -5 degrees C in our place recently in the morning, so you need a plasticizer.
  • #5 17475535
    minimaxi
    Level 15  
    Thanks! The bench, made 3 weeks ago, is approx. 30 cm wide, approx. 100-110 cm deep, approx. 5 cm below the ground, specially unaligned (I thought it was better for connection) and with vertical fi10 bars approx. every 30 cm. Ultimately, the ground will be raised on both sides of the fence (cube and stone or earth) and this connection will be invisible.
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  • #6 17476868
    saskia
    Level 39  
    If the lava is a meter deep, it's almost like the foundation of a house. :-)

    Remember that the main part of the work in keeping the structure in "one piece" so that it does not fall apart is done by gravity. Yes, the same gravity that can destroy, if used properly, holds all structures together.
    That is why the foundation is the foundation and is so important that it does not give in under the pressure of the mass of the building and gravity can do its useful work.
    Pay attention, for example, to church towers with a bell tower, these are heavy, massive constructions held by gravity, which is not disturbed even by powerful vibrations of the bell.
    On the other hand, lightweight steel frame structures must be maintained with the bending, crushing and tensile strength of the materials used, and such structures are susceptible to any vibration, which is clearly seen when an elevator is installed in such a building. Despite the use of sound-absorbing materials, you will feel the vibrations of the elevator in every room, even the farthest from the elevator, and with strong winds, the entire building "plays" like a brass band. :-)
  • #7 17476885
    zimny8
    Level 33  
    saskia wrote:
    , the same gravity that can destroy, if properly used, sustains all structures.

    Exactly, see that all buildings on the foundation have horizontal insulation on it, usually roofing felt, it is an obvious "crack" of the structure, and nothing bad happens.
  • #8 17477858
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
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  • #9 17478071
    minimaxi
    Level 15  
    In terms of explanation: I did it twice, because the excavations during downpours were torn off and widened. Therefore, in the 1st stage, I made a footing almost to the ground level, then based the formwork on it and prepared to pour 20-40 cm of the already proper width of 20 cm. The load will be considerable, because it is a fence made of concrete blocks. It also seems to me that due to gravity, the weight of the fence will be so great that there will be no chance of delamination, but I preferred to ask if there is any sealing and binding agent ...
  • #10 17478437
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
  • #11 17478681
    zimny8
    Level 33  
    If someone has not built many times or has not been to construction sites, he may not know that pouring foundations twice is a common case and no wonder.
    "Big" contractors do not mind that the investor will pay for stupid work and materials, quite the opposite. I saw a bunch of workers demolishing the excavation in such a way that a few cubic meters more had to be added or the formwork was lost.
    Buddy pawel, refer to the horizontal "crack" on the foundation, where the insulation is.
  • #12 17478699
    minimaxi
    Level 15  
    101pawel - my formwork currently looks exactly like your sketch. I wanted to do this from the beginning (the drilling was not easy because it crumbled during measurements and walking), but it was the concrete company ( :) ) advised 2 times, only within 2-3 days, and it became as much as 3 weeks :( cold8 - yes, it's true that they do it twice, because the foundations for the house also had a footing in the ground and then formwork in a few days, but there were very wide excavations. I didn't dare to board from the bottom, so almost twice as much concrete came in - I reinforced it. Greetings :)
  • #13 17478862
    saskia
    Level 39  
    101pawel wrote:
    saskia wrote:
    If the lava is a meter deep, it's almost like the foundation of a house. :-)
    For the record, buddy minimaxi so far he has not made a footing, but a foundation for a low wall (for some reason, he is making this foundation in two installments, and he should do it in one cycle). Moreover, in your quote, you link the depth of the foundation with the size of the building. A meter of depth does not result from the load on the structure, but from the depth of ground freezing.

    saskia wrote:
    Remember that the main part of the work in keeping the structure in "one piece" so that it does not fall apart is done by gravity.
    How does gravity, or the mutual attraction of bodies, play such a large role in maintaining the structure? You do not exaggerate?

    Regards


    Precisely because of the depth of ground freezing, the foundations for buildings are made to a depth greater than this freezing, while the fence wall does not require such a depth. because there is no ground pressure.

    As for gravity, what will you say, for example, about the so-called "dry stone walls", which are walls made of flat stones stacked on top of each other without any mortar, and many such walls are standing for several hundred years, and often their foundation does not exceed 30 cm in depth.
    If you do not know, I will explain to you that the mortar is not really a binder, but a material used to adjust the contact surface of brick or stone to eliminate point contacts of these materials and which could cause cracks and chipping of brick or stone caused by the high pressure of the mass of the wall-building. The hard grain of quartz protruding from the brick will not crack under the pressure of the wall mass, but will either stick into the adjacent brick or crush it.
    Most bricks have such protruding grains and without mortar the whole wall would crack and crumble.
    When it comes to horizontal shifting of bricks, on the old lime mortar such shifting occurs, although it is not visible.
    You probably don't know that every building is still working and when the bricks can't move between each other, they just crack.
    Today's technologies in concrete require more massive and often reinforced foundations so that the entire building is like a uniform rigid block, but in principle the foundations move up and down, not from freezing, but from changes in soil moisture, and e.g. a large tree at a distance of less than 10m from the building can lean the building towards itself over the years.
    A tree, depending on its size, can draw 50-250 liters of water from the ground in one day. So that within a week the ground under the foundation from the tree side can go down even 1-2 cm, and on the opposite side it remains as it was, and after years of rocking the building, the walls crack or the whole building begins to lean.
  • #14 17479001
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
  • #15 17481886
    saskia
    Level 39  
    I hope you're not an architect, because then you'd have to rebuild or tear down all the houses you designed. :-(
  • #16 17481898
    WędkarzStoLica
    Level 31  
    Gravity won't help much here, it's not a house but a fence without any support.
    It must be solidly connected to the foundation, otherwise it will wprd at any gust, or if the bum leans against the fence.

    Thick heels and probably nothing better left.
  • #17 17482115
    saskia
    Level 39  
    WędkarzStoLica wrote:
    Gravity won't help much here, it's not a house but a fence without any support.
    It must be solidly connected to the foundation, otherwise it will wprd at any gust, or if the bum leans against the fence.

    Thick heels and probably nothing better left.


    The pins are known from the beginning because the author wrote about it that he put the bars in the foundation to strengthen the connection, so that the wall will not fall over or move.
    The main problem is the possibility of water getting into the joint, which can result in cracks in frost, but sikaflex 11FC is good for this because it sticks permanently even to a wet surface and remains flexible.
  • #18 17482117
    minimaxi
    Level 15  
    as above - sketch

Topic summary

✨ The discussion revolves around techniques for pouring new concrete on an existing concrete foundation, particularly in the context of creating a strong, water-resistant structure on a sloped terrain. Key recommendations include preparing the surface of the existing concrete by roughening it to enhance adhesion, using a bonding agent like Sikaflex 11FC to seal joints and prevent water infiltration, and ensuring proper alignment and leveling to avoid gaps that could lead to structural issues. The importance of gravity in maintaining structural integrity is emphasized, along with considerations for frost resistance and the necessity of using plasticizers in cold weather. The conversation also touches on the common practice of pouring foundations in multiple stages and the implications of ground freezing depth on foundation design.
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FAQ

TL;DR: In 10 years, inspect the joint; "These two layers will work independently." Roughen old concrete, rinse, pour new, add expansion joints, and seal the seam. Prevent water ingress and frost damage on stepped fence footings. [Elektroda, Anonymous, post #17474659]

Why it matters: For DIYers and pros pouring new concrete onto existing footings for stepped block fences on slopes, this prevents weak bonds and water damage.

Quick Facts

Will new concrete bond to old concrete on a fence footing?

Not as a true structural bond. "These two layers will work independently." Expect a cold joint and a micro‑crack at the interface. That crack can draw capillary water. Treat the pours as separate layers and manage movement with joints. A heavy fence under compression will remain stable. [Elektroda, Anonymous, post #17474659]

What’s the best surface prep before pouring concrete on concrete?

Remove the weak cement laitance at the surface. Chisel until you expose sound concrete and some aggregate. The rougher surface increases mechanical keying to the new pour. "After such chiseling, rinse the dust thoroughly with water," then place the mix. Optionally, seal the joint after curing. [Elektroda, saskia, post #17473828]

Do I need a bonding agent or grout between layers?

Generally, no. "It will not succeed" to make the new layer truly stick to the old one. Specialized repair concretes with chemical bonding exist, but they are costly. Expect a micro‑crack, then plan to seal the joint later with a flexible sealant. [Elektroda, Anonymous, post #17474659]

How should I pour in cold weather to avoid frost damage?

Watch for sub‑zero mornings. At −5°C, use a plasticizer in the mix and avoid freezing during early cure. Schedule pours during milder daytime windows. Protect the fresh concrete from frost as it sets. [Elektroda, zimny8, post #17474761]

Do vertical dowels help keep the fence tied to the footing?

Yes. Vertical reinforcing bars embedded in the footing strengthen the connection. They help resist overturning and sliding of the wall. The thread confirms bars prevent the wall from moving. [Elektroda, saskia, post #17482115]

How should I seal the cold joint to keep water out?

After the concrete cures, seal the seam with Sikaflex 11FC. It adheres strongly and stays flexible. "It sticks permanently even to a wet surface and remains flexible." This reduces water ingress and freeze‑thaw damage at the joint. [Elektroda, saskia, post #17482115]

What if the old surface is wavy or uneven?

Uneven planes cause unequal shrinkage and delamination. The upper layer rides on high spots, creating gaps in hollows. Impurities then clog the gaps, worsening separation over time. Add horizontal bars and include expansion joints to limit transverse cracking. [Elektroda, Anonymous, post #17474659]

What footing dimensions worked in this real‑world case?

The footing was about 30 cm wide and 100–110 cm deep. Its top sat around 5 cm below ground level. It was intentionally left unaligned and included vertical Ø10 mm bars at roughly 30 cm spacing. [Elektroda, minimaxi, post #17475535]

Is it okay to pour the foundation in two stages?

Yes. Pouring foundations twice happens often and is not unusual. Excavations may widen or collapse, requiring a staged approach and added formwork. Focus on proper prep and weather controls for the second pour. [Elektroda, zimny8, post #17478681]

If the first pour is still green, should I scratch it before the second pour?

Yes, if it has not fully hardened. "You can scratch the surfaces, e.g., with a reinforcing bar." If it is already hard, follow full surface prep and cleaning. [Elektroda, zimny8, post #17474761]

How should I plan expansion joints on a long or curved footing?

Include more frequent expansion joints along long or curved sections. "Make the maximum number of expansion joints." Curved beams lying on each other tend to crack transversely without joints. [Elektroda, Anonymous, post #17474659]

Will gravity alone keep a heavy block fence safe?

No. "Gravity won't help much here." Tie the wall to the footing with reinforcement. Use thick heels where loads or winds act. [Elektroda, WędkarzStoLica, post #17481898]

What happens if water enters the joint and freezes?

A micro‑crack at the interface will draw water by capillarity. The gap grows year by year with debris and shrinkage. For compression‑only loads, the fence remains stable but a visible crack appears. After about 10 years, open edges and seal with a flexible material. [Elektroda, Anonymous, post #17474659]

How do I prep and pour the second stage on existing concrete?

Follow this 3‑step routine:
  1. Chisel off cement laitance and roughen to expose sound concrete.
  2. Rinse all dust thoroughly with clean water.
  3. Place new concrete onto the damp‑clean surface; finish and cure. After curing, seal the joint if needed. [Elektroda, saskia, post #17473828]

Should I add a sliding layer between the two pours?

It is sometimes used in concrete work between layers. The sliding layer can be bituminous material or foil. It allows layers to move freely during shrinkage. Use where controlled sliding between layers is desired. [Elektroda, Anonymous, post #17474659]
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