Excitation of on-grid inverter with external source during power failure?

I have 5,8kWp 1F on-grid PV installations (No. 1) and I plan to add a second, smaller, approximately 3kWp for the second phase (No. 2).
At the moment, I do not have electricity (and it will not be for a few hours) and the sun is shining, and you know the installation is not working.
In connection with the above, I have some questions / ideas:
- Is it worth thinking about a hybrid inverter in installation no.2 and some small warehouse for now?
First case:
- Would it make sense in a situation like now (no current) to redirect the AC voltage from installation 2 to installation 1 (actually phase 1) so that the inverter (normal) starts and produces electricity?
Second case:
- Similarly, could I give the AC voltage from a 1000W converter (and a charged battery) at the moment, which I have to supply emergency ventilation mech. and a few smaller devices, phase no. 1 and will inverter no. 1 start?
- In the latter case, should the inverter be connected to the phase ensuring simultaneous battery charging or not?
- For the above-mentioned situations, it would be enough to turn off the three-pole switch disconnector (3 phases) in the box on the plot border or would I have to have some other switch after the meter?

Of course, I am aware that in the event of a failure at the energy supplier, I must not put the voltage into the installation in front of the meter for the sake of the safety of people who will remove the failure. Therefore, I am asking if all this is possible and legal in some way?

Better buy a generator in case of power failure. The hybrid inverter is expensive and the batteries are not cheap. You do not synchronize an ordinary inverter with the inverter. I have a 3KW generator for such situations and it has been working for two years.

Tech132 wrote:

Better buy a generator in case of power failure. The hybrid inverter is expensive and the batteries are not cheap. You do not synchronize an ordinary inverter with the inverter. I have a 3KW generator for such situations and it has been working for two years.

I do not know if I have ordinary or unusual converters: Volt Sinus Pro 1000W and AGM battery. Possible that it won't sync?
I have a 5.5kW generator, but I do not want to start for a few hours if I power the most necessary things on the battery. It's different for a few days.
And with inverters, the thing is that I was going to buy a Fronius for installation No. 2 again and the price in the case of 3kW is considerable (PLN 4000) and I saw hybrid Skymax or Hujwa inverters for PLN 4800, so the difference in quality will probably be bigger.
But in this case, will the hybrid inverter synchronize with the ordinary transformerless?

The Skymax only needs panels for happiness - it still provides power to the house despite the lack of a network.
The only condition is that the power from the panels must be more than the house consumes.
As for the quality - it is heavy , mine has a power of 3 kW and a few hours was under a load of 4-6 kW and nothing.
The maximum load I have seen on it is over 7 kW.

The on-grid inverter not only checks for voltage. Attempting to "thrust" electricity into the Skymax's output will do a "boom".

Since you have an aggregate, send everything to the warehouse, i.e. to the network, and have the aggregate as an emergency, preferably if it had the ignition key.

The PV inverter must have a rigid grid to synchronize. I tried once with a 500W converter, it did not work, only with a 5kW generator.

Slak68 wrote:

The Skymax only needs panels for happiness - it still provides power to the house despite the lack of a network.
The only condition is that the power from the panels must be more than the house consumes.
As for the quality - it is heavy , mine has a power of 3 kW and a few hours was under a load of 4-6 kW and nothing.
The maximum load I have seen on it is over 7 kW.

The on-grid inverter not only checks for voltage. Attempting to "thrust" electricity into the Skymax's output will do a "boom".

I'm not going to push the current into the SKymax, I'm going to push the AC into the on-grid Fronius and see if it starts. Of course, after switching off the phases in the box.
And here the source of this current would be the inverter Volt Sinus PRO 1000VA (apparently pure sine) or another with appropriate parameters.
Alternatively, the source of electricity for Fronius would be a hybrid Skymax (if he will use it in the future installation No. 2) - is it possible?

Added after 2 [minutes]:

Tech132 wrote:

Since you have an aggregate, send everything to the warehouse, i.e. to the network, and have the aggregate as an emergency, preferably if it had the ignition key.

I've been doing this for a year. I only get pissed off when I don't have as much electricity as I would like on a sunny day. And in the countryside where I live, it happens often.

Added after 20 [minutes]:

Michal_WWL wrote:

The PV inverter must have a rigid grid to synchronize. I tried once with a 500W converter, it did not work, only with a 5kW generator.

I have just read from Szymanski ("Photovoltaic installations - 5th edition") that you can create a hybrid system based on two inverters: the first on-grid and the second is island.
Would you like to try with my 1000W inverter? Will nothing boom?

SMA has such a solution and such an OFF-Grid philosophy, i.e. Sunny Island which is on a separate AC phase, Island is connected under the akku but does not have a built-in panel charger, it can be charged via a standard ongrid inverter SMA Sunny Boy plugged into this phase at Island or a dedicated panel charger ...
And this is the philosophy that Mr. Szymański writes about ...
I have not met another case that could be run ongrid inverter (fornius or other company).
You can try this Chinese called Volt, but surely if fornius moves, it will be buuuum either in fortune or in Chinese ...

Slak68 wrote:

The Skymax only needs panels for happiness - it still provides power to the house despite the lack of a network.
The only condition is that the power from the panels must be more than the house consumes.
As for the quality - it is heavy , mine has a power of 3 kW and a few hours was under a load of 4-6 kW and nothing.
The maximum load I have seen on it is over 7 kW.

This is another question: in the event of a power failure, will the hybrid inverter work without a battery or does a battery have to be?

As I wrote - my SKYMAX worked for a year without batteries and always, when it was sunny, I had electricity at home - even when they turned off the electricity from the power plant several times.
It's just that this inverter has an input from the mains and an output to the house - and between them the electronics direct the electricity from the sun to where it is missing.
If the house cannot withdraw as much as the production amounts, it directs the surplus to the network.
I am very pleased.

Brunoxp wrote:

Better buy a generator in case there is no mains voltage

the best solution, and the topic has already been raised a dozen times ...

10kWh lithium batteries in the system of increased self-consumption, Victron multiplus 5kW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW4PVrxeN9c

off grid system Poland, windspot wind farm and energy storage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-qaBYiDjG0

It's interesting. I need a more powerful inverter. Hybrid ORVALDI solar MKS5K +, which will happen when it is connected to another off grid inverter for parallel operation. The manufacturer states that up to 6 pcs can work in a parallel system. What will happen ?? .

They can work in parallel, but only two or more MKS5K + - with others it will be "boom". That's why they have parallel cards to synchronize themselves:
https://www.sklep.orvaldi.pl/data/include/cms/ORVALDI_KS-MKS_praca_rownolegla_PL.pdf
But you have to admit that they have many combinations and everyone will find something for themselves.

That's how the specs broke through only now. But a very cool thing about paralleling. I wonder how with power, how much is it stretched? 5 KW of continuous it would suit me. But there is no synchronization with the network to work on - grid. Someone has this invention. In practice, someone tried to make such a hybrid as in the subject. ?? . A suitable inverter that will have limits and will generate a pure sine wave and will not overload the network - maybe.

If you assume that you will use as much from the mains as the cat cried, then in the case of using the MKS5K + the output is the mains battery charger - it will recharge the batteries to a small extent and the "excess / rest" inverter will take from the "front of the batteries" and convert it to 230V.
If you use, for example, Skymax, which is a full hybrid and a cheaper strict clone of Orwaldi Solar Infini (https://www.sklep.orvaldi.pl/data/include/cms/ORVALDI_Solar_Infini-tryby_pracy.pdf), you already have a matching machine missing energy from the grid to the house. But they cannot be connected in parallel - maybe they will "add" such an option ...
I have a Skymax 3 KW plus and I am satisfied, it is overloadable, it can be connected to 4.2 kWp panels and has a lot of options to play with - for example, for the winter I set that the batteries should be discharged only when there is no power from the mains and keeps those 54 volts constantly.

You know, net uploading doesn't really interest me. I mainly need "Power", something that will not get out of breath when it will work with a continuous power of about 3 kW, temporarily 4 kW. . There is a problem in this matter, and there are disputes. It will have good efficiency. The volt inverter has been overcooked recently 2800-2900 Watt, this is the maximum continuous operation for several hours. It was already stinking from the exit luck. It seems to have 3500 watts of continuous power and what the 5000 words are for, I do not know. All these 3.5kW continuous power inverters suck. Because if you turn on two receivers with a power of 2000 watts, which is not a problem. This is about to shut off the overload. Well, I think how to bite it at a reasonable price. You can make a system that will select electricity from the network. And I don't need more to be happy with my installation.

What you see above in the chart is the whole day of laying the cube in the yard (vibrator, cube cutter etc + whole house).
For me, for example, from 11 to 14 with a power consumed above 3 kW is a great advantage for Skymax - it did not turn off, although it has temperature protection, and then it worked for three phases at home, taking electricity from the network from one phase + PV panels + battery.
And once I managed to turn it off, but then it was over 8 kW in peak. But if you have a workshop, it may not be enough - then the MKS are better, because they must be synchronized for three-phase current.
Nevertheless, I am full of admiration for the knowledge, skills and self-denial in this work, I try to figure out how to become independent from BigEnergy, but the November-January period is a big challenge.
I am thinking about a cogenerator from a combustion engine because I have gas from the network - then I would have electricity + heat from water and exhaust gases to heat the house.

I am rather tempted by Orwaldi. It is compatible with my installation. The mppt regulator is at 145V. I will also buy a 5 Kw inverter and a regulator that I need for the second tracker that is without panels. And I will sell the volta. It is a pain in the ass to be careful not to turn on two 2 KW receivers. Switching inverters to heat water in the boiler, etc. I will see what it can do in real life and will send it back at most. You can always buy a second one and increase the power. But the option of supporting the off-grid inverter with an on-grid inverter is interesting. I suppose it is just a matter of a little changed software in the on - grid inverter. Restrictions that only it could boost the voltage by two - five volts max. Above the operating voltage of this off - grid. I am speaking vaguely. Thus, the power would depend on the consumption and not on the PV production. With a heavily loaded network, it would rather work. A loss of load would cause a sudden increase in voltage on the grid and possibly damage this off - grid inverter.

This is how I saw now on the website https://www.sklep.asat.pl/pl/p/Inwerter-Hybrydowy-SKYMAX-HYBRID-3kW/435 that 3 kW Skymaxes can also be connected in parallel, giving 9 kW (by searching on this page the word "parallel").
The leaflet also includes ... https://www.sklep.asat.pl/pl/p/file/46d22d9d8...e948bea0d4113522/Skymax-Hybrid-2-10-kW-PL.pdf
I have to ask this company.
As the panels are connected to low voltage, the MKS are better.

From what I talked about, off-grids do not tolerate another inverter on the load side, especially if the load drops to e.g. 500W and the other inverter tries to "push" 1000W, then there is a "boom".

Inverter found from the Internet as an emergency generator function Polish Spirvent inverters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYk7IyRWAMw

I think this company is dead. Entering a website means redirection to another website with the virus.

I saw that Fronius also has hybrid inverters. Anyone have any experiences with them?

https://www.fachowyelektryk.pl/techn...en24-plus.html

Sunny Island SMA is 3000 EUR as I checked recently. For this expensive batteries.
For 2000-3000 PLN you can buy a Kipor inverter aggregate. With such a generator, my SMA inverter worked without any problems and provided power from PV while the generator was operating at low speed.
Fuel for the generator will cost cheaper for years than replacing the batteries!

Jan_Werbinski wrote:

For 2000-3000 PLN you can buy a Kipor inverter aggregate. With such a generator, my SMA inverter worked without any problems and provided power from PV while the generator was operating at low speed.

Can you tell us your solution?
I am particularly interested in what happened to the excess power generated by the panels?

Regards

All the power generated by PV was consumed by connected receivers.
I have described it many times in other threads.

Jan_Werbinski wrote:

All the power generated by PV was consumed by connected receivers.
I have described it many times in other threads.

So a bitcoin mine?
Because to tell you the truth, I'm not going to search your other threads without your help in the form of a link

https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic2807432.html#18657876
https://www.facebook.com/groups/329438764201077/search/?query=kipor&epa=SEARCH_BOX

As I read a bit, I will share it
This Fronius Gen24 Plus also works without a battery. But then it has simplified PV Point operations. It has a 1-phase socket with a power of up to 3kW, which can be used to power receivers.
https://www.rynekelektryczny.pl/falo...fronius-gen24/