Choosing a PLC for home automation: Moeller XN-PLC XI/ON or Siemens Simatic?

You can connect to the controller using Ethernet, RS232 or RS485 modules. You can find more information under the headings SoftPLC or PC Panels. For communication and visualisation, you can use, for example, InTouch or IFix, as well as OPC software. To connect to a PLC, you will need an RS485 card (Profibus, Modbus, etc.) or another communication card.

Put simply:
Beckhoff’s TWINCAT installed on a computer (includes a visualisation interface) + 1 runtime (also included in TWINCAT) running in the background, communicating via Ethernet with Beckhoff’s field modules.
Wawrzo.

I recommend reading the article "EIB – the smart home" from EP 1/2/2004. Written by R. Zduński (robert.zdunski@wp.pl) and W. Tonderski (witold.tonderski@wp.pl). Software is also available on CD-EP2/2004B. It may be useful for developing your own projects.

shadoweyes wrote:

I recommend reading the article "EIB – the smart home" from EP 1/2/2004. Written by R. Zduński (robert.zdunski@wp.pl) and W. Tonderski (witold.tonderski@wp.pl). Software is also available on CD-EP2/2004B. It may be useful for developing your own projects.

And where can I buy it, because I’m completely in the dark

On the Elektronika Praktyczna website www.elektronikapraktyczna.pl .

Which controller specifications should be compared when choosing a specific model?
For example: programme code length, programme memory, number of counters, communication modules, etc.

What else should be taken into account?

You should compare parameters such as:
- the duration of a typical programme cycle,
- the input/output signal response time,
- the maximum number of inputs and outputs, or the maximum number of supported modules or sockets,
- the amount of memory allocated for the programme and data, and the type of memory used,
- the ability to perform floating-point calculations,
- the ability to force variables,
- the number of communication ports, and the standards and protocols used for serial and Ethernet communication.

There’s a used WAGO PLC on Allegro – is it worth the price it’s listed for, and can it be used for home automation?

Allegro

From what I’ve read, this is just an I/O island operating on a Profibus network. You’d also need a CPU with Profibus-DP communication.

I’d still recommend Siemens. I haven’t had the best experience with WAGO. If you absolutely must use distributed modules, it’s best to combine Siemens islands – ET200S – with Siemens. You won’t have any problems with configuration and diagnostics. Prices are comparable across the board, you just need to shop around

Best regards,
adner

see something like this

1 XNE-16DO-24VDC-0.5A-P 8550101438 16-channel DC binary module 263.00
2 XNE-16DI-24VDC-P 8550101439 16-channel binary input module, ECO version 224.00
3 XNE-GWBR-CANOPEN 8550107591 CanOpen communication interface – ECO 409.00
4 EC4P-BOX-221-MTXD 106410 Starter kit with EC4P-221-MTXD1 1,329.00
64 in 64 out PLC Xion for 3,686.00
alternatively, black and white touchscreen panel with XV200 touch matrix for approx. 1,500
all via the bus
all Meler and Microinvokation

marcin_kr7 wrote:

see something like this

1 XNE-16DO-24VDC-0.5A-P 8550101438 16-channel binary DC module 263.00
2 XNE-16DI-24VDC-P 8550101439 16-channel binary input module, ECO version 224.00
3 XNE-GWBR-CANOPEN 8550107591 CanOpen communication interface – ECO 409.00
4 EC4P-BOX-221-MTXD 106410 Starter kit with EC4P-221-MTXD1 1,329.00
64 in 64 out PLC Xion for 3,686.00
Alternatively, a black-and-white touchscreen panel with an XV200 touch matrix for around 1,500
All via the bus
All from Meler and Microinvokation

Where do you get such good prices? Can you give me some details?

adner wrote:

From what I’ve read, this is just an I/O island operating on a Profibus network. It would still need a CPU with Profibus-DP communication.

And from what I can see, it is a fully programmable Profibus module.
Not a ‘distribution’ module, but a complete controller.

Under no circumstances is Profi Bas cheaper anywhere else; these are Moller’s list prices, but you’re sure to get some sort of discount. Do pop into any electrical wholesaler – a reputable one, of course – and check out the price list on Moller’s website
http://www.moeller.pl/DesktopDefault.aspx?PageID=346
Getla Eco is cheaper; I work with it and highly recommend it. From 30 March 2009, Automatikon starts, and if you visit the stand, you’re sure to get a free development tool – in this case, CodeSys.
And do visit the website
http://www.codesys.pl/code,3,3z.html
where you’ll find full instructions in Polish
CodeSys has also just been released in Polish; this is probably the first fully Polish-localised PLC software – I recommend it, do have a look

Added after 6 [minutes]:

Oh, and new expansion modules have been released for the EC4P with PT100 measurement (0-10V, 4-20mA)
so that’s everything, and it costs just over 1000 zł – you won’t find it cheaper in the price list. Alternatively, you could split this setup across several distribution boards, connecting the extensions with a 3x0.5 cable and using some sort of LYIC shielding

Added after 1 [hours] 20 [minutes]:

Sorry, the starter kit includes a controller with 12 inputs (DC24, 4 x 0-10V) and 8 outputs (0.5A DC transistor), and of course the controller has a programmable keypad and display!! Just like the Easy Logo Zelio
So this package has everything you need – the price is net, of course

If you need anything, ask for a discount; if there’s a problem with the wholesaler, I’ll recommend something in Poland

What seems cheaper at first doesn’t always work out that way in the long run. You could draw up a rough cost estimate for a CAN, Profibus or other network, and then make your decision. Well, I would recommend Profibus because of the availability of all kinds of modules and sensors that work on this network, as well as the variety of equipment you can use.

Added after 2 [hours] 4 [minutes]:

The two-part article is the one mentioned earlier from EP.
The second is a description of the smart home concept found on the internet. These may help you create your own design for such a home or building.

Alternatively, this is interesting and incredibly mobile, even when it comes to topics you’ve forgotten about
http://www.xcomfort.pl/

marcin_kr7 wrote:

Under no circumstances is Profi Bas cheaper anywhere; these are Moller’s list prices. You’re sure to get some sort of discount. I’d recommend visiting any reputable electrical wholesaler – the price list is on Moller’s website
http://www.moeller.pl/DesktopDefault.aspx?PageID=346
Getła Eco is cheaper; I work with it and highly recommend it
Added after 6 [minutes]:

For the life of me, I can’t get the Moeller price list to run on my Windows Vista

I had a look at their website and the quote for a 120m² house on Xcomfort came to around 3,500 to 4,000; depending on the options, you can even set up a website for the house and have full control. It’s a more mobile alternative to Eiba, and some of the features are shared with Eiba, e.g. Hommenadrzer, and that’s where the price starts to rise.
If you’ve got a website, what’s the point of Hommenadrzer? Of course, there are text messages and a few other bells and whistles. Moeller used to have Eiba but switched to Xcomfort.
Thinking further, but here we only have certain functions, whereas with a PLC you have programming freedom, and that beats Eiba and other systems hands down. You have a star configuration, and if you know a bit of coding or are just determined, I fully support the PLC. I’ve built two such systems, but they’re fairly simple – mainly lights, blinds and an alarm working together – and on small Easy 600s, but now for the same money you can get an EC4P, and that’s a proper machine; plus, the XV200 has a built-in web server with simple software. Besides, a PLC is an industrial-grade solution, whereas the other alternatives are just home and office

marcin_kr7 wrote:

I looked at the cost estimate for a 120m² house on their website; on xcomfort it came to around 3,500 to 4,000, depending on the options. You can even create a website for the house on it and have full control; it is

I find it hard to believe it works out that cheaply; I rather doubt it

marcin_kr7 wrote:

In terms of PLCs, its programming flexibility beats Eiba and other systems hands down. You’ve got a star topology, and if you know a bit of coding or are just determined, I fully support using a PLC. I’ve built two such systems, though fairly simple ones – mainly lights, blinds and an alarm working on small Easy 600s, but now for the same money you can get an EC4P, which is a substantial machine, and the XV200 has a built-in web server with simple software. Besides, a PLC is an industrial-grade solution, whereas the alternatives are only suitable for office or home use

But you’re tempting me with Moeller, especially the ECO modules. The price really is good.

And what do you think of a panel like the one here? The panel comes with a PLC controller – is that a good solution?

Panel

You need to open the ‘Promotions’ tab

Can you programme icons on these panels to control the lighting or blinds as you wish?

What cables do you need to connect to these panels?

I often write the same code on them; the white one costs 1,500, and the PLC and Windows licence is 700. It runs really smoothly; I even use it to develop quite complex applications. And, importantly, the software for them is MXPro – practically the same as CodeSys.in 7 programming languages and you can mix them in a single application

Added after 2 [minutes]:

the wires are +24V, 0V and PE
so 3x1 should be fine
and 3x1 for the CANopen data bus
you’ll definitely need relays; I’d recommend Fidner’s C4 series
very good and cheap

Added after 8 [minutes]:

1 CPAD-00/54 106100 Wireless lighting control kit MOELLER 368.40
2 CPAD-00/56 106102 Wireless roller shutter control kit MOELLER 394.10

such a kit for 5 rooms comes to 3800, i.e. blinds and lighting

>grudziu<
Sorry, you're right – it is a WAGO with a PLC.

Best regards,
adner

Check this out: the Easy Control starter kit for 1,250. I gave it to you as a PLC with XNE; it has a 12-inch display, including 4 0-10V inputs and 8 outputs. The kit includes the software and a cable, of course. It’s priced at Easycen for the 800 series
Think about it – it’s easiest on X-Comfort, but I’m in favour of the PLC
This is also a PLC. XI/ON promotional kits at attractive prices
But the EC4P fits into the K-modules, and the display and keyboard – true, only 4 buttons – but you don’t have that in Xion

Hello!!

I have a SIEMENS SIMATIC S7-200 CPU-214 controller for sale. Please send offers via private message.

Best regards

Hello
A question for everyone

What’s the price of a CX9001 like that?
If you can, please let me know where I can pick one up.

If cost is a factor, I’d recommend ARRAY FAB – it looks just like the Siemens LOGO! system, only a bit simpler. The cost is around 300 PLN net per controller.
Free software for creating applications.

There are an awful lot of I/O points. It’s too many for a small controller (e.g. S7-200); you could use an S7-300, but you’d still need a lot of expansion modules, and it probably wouldn’t all fit on a single rack... I suggest rethinking the system architecture; perhaps the number of I/O points can be reduced, unless this is a hotel rather than a house

dzwilu wrote:

There are an awful lot of I/O points. Too many for a small controller (e.g. S7-200); you could use an S7-300, but you’d still need a lot of expansion modules – it probably wouldn’t fit on a single rack... I suggest rethinking the system architecture; perhaps the number of I/Os can be reduced, unless this is a hotel rather than a house

Alternatively, you could try to decentralise the control system and use many smaller units.

panikaz wrote:

Hello
A question for everyone

What is the price of a CX9001?
If you can, please let me know where I can buy one.

I’d like to join in with a question about the cost of this controller

Added after 24 [minutes]:

arkady_pl wrote:

dzwilu wrote:

There are an awful lot of I/Os. Too many for a small controller (e.g. S7-200); you could use an S7-300, but you’d still need a lot of expansion modules – it probably wouldn’t fit on a single rack... I suggest rethinking the system architecture; perhaps the number of I/O points can be reduced, unless this is a hotel rather than a house

Alternatively, you could try to decentralise the control system and use many smaller units.

For now, this option has won out – specifically, the Easy Moeller 800 on the Easy Net network; ultimately, it will be connected via CanOpen to Easy Control
and/or an XI/ON PLC, or even larger controllers such as the XC-200

There are several reasons for this. The first is the decentralisation of the system; in other words, it won’t be the case that there is a single controller, a single failure, and everything goes dark.
I don’t know why, but it seems to me that I’ll be able to learn to programme controllers most quickly on the Moeller system. This is one of the conditions so that I can change the settings in the programme myself and correct the programme myself.

Another reason is the cost: Fatek was the cheapest; Wago is as much as twice as expensive as Fatek, and Beckhoff will probably be similar. And there’s quite a large second-hand market for Moeller on Allegro, or you can find new Easy units at good prices. I even recently bought two Easy 800s with two expansion modules for a third of the list price on Allegro.

There’s a large second-hand market for Siemens Simatic, but I simply can’t make head nor tail of the designations for the individual CPUs or expansion modules, so I’ve given up on Siemens.

Well, perhaps there’s still Logo – for example, here a company offers control systems based on distributed Logo PLCs.

Logo automation

If anyone has Mollers controllers at a good price, but for 24V, I’m interested.

Added after 2 [minutes]:

dzwilu wrote:

There are an awful lot of I/Os. Too many for a small controller (e.g. S7-200); you could use an S7-300, but you’d still need a lot of expansion modules, and it probably wouldn’t fit on a single rack...

The S7-200 CPU 226 wouldn’t be enough.

What is the memory capacity limit in this case?

The I/O should be sufficient as there are probably 256.

A controller failure must not result in a total blackout Remote and local modes must be provided for (manual control in the event of a failure).
As far as I’m concerned, the system is too large for an S7-200... Perhaps an Omron controller?? They are cheaper than Siemens, a bit less feature-rich, but sufficient for controlling a smart building. You can find them at reasonable prices on eBay.

Best regards

darekas wrote:

panikaz wrote:

Hello
A question for everyone

How much does a CX9001 cost?
If you can, please let me know where I can buy one of these little gems.

I’d also like to ask about the cost of this controller.

CX9001-1001 (Basic CPU module CX9000, 32 MB Flash/128 MB RAM, K-bus, TwinCAT PLC runtime) 460,- EUR according to the catalogue.

CX9001-1101 (Basic CPU module CX9000, 32 MB Flash/128 MB RAM, DVI/USB, K-bus, TwinCAT PLC runtime) 585,- EUR.

Additional 2xRS485 card CX9000-N031 75,- EUR.

TwinCAT PLC Building Automation - library 92,- EUR.