Choosing a PLC for home automation: Moeller XN-PLC XI/ON or Siemens Simatic?

Please help a layman who, against all odds, is determined to install a smart home system in his newly built house – which PLC controller should he choose?

Unfortunately, cost is a factor, so I couldn’t afford EIB-type systems; instead, the idea arose to build the home automation system using a PLC controller.

I have the entire installation wired in a star configuration. I’ve ended up with quite a lot of inputs and outputs – I have 99 inputs and 144 outputs.

I’m wondering which would be the better solution: the Moeller system or Siemens Simatic
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By Moeller, I mean a distributed XI/ON system like the one here

XN-PLC XI/ON

The arguments in favour of Moeller are the greater number of useful communication protocols, particularly Ethernet as standard, the ability to build a decentralised system, and the availability of sample applications, which is important to me because I want to learn the basics of programming so that I can programme the system myself.

On the other hand, Siemens’ Symatic is attractive to me because there is a fairly large second-hand market, e.g. on Allegro, so it might be cheaper. On the other hand, everyone is warning me against Siemens – where the costs will be highest.

So the most important criterion when choosing is price, followed by functionality and ease of programming.


There is also Wago, but I am completely unfamiliar with that system.

I would be grateful for any suggestions.

I would recommend the Siemens S7-200 series or using a PC with the relevant software and a card as a SoftPLC (which may be cheaper).
There are plenty of expansion modules available for the S7-200 series, and it can be integrated with LOGO or the S7-300 series should the system need to be expanded. You could also consider the Siemens-clone VIPA 100V/200V/300V controllers (http://www.sds-automatyka.pl/?site=126).

shadoweyes wrote:

I would recommend the Siemens S7-200 series or using a PC with software and a card as a SoftPLC (which may be cheaper).
There are plenty of add-on modules for the S7-200 series, and it can be integrated with LOGO or the S7-300 series should you need to expand the system. You could also consider the Siemens clones, the VIPA 100V /200V/300V controllers ( http://www.sds-automatyka.pl/?site=126 ).

Actually, I’m thinking the same thing – I’ll buy the cheapest starter kit
I’ll then have the genuine S7-200 software, and I’ll buy the rest of the modules second-hand – that might work out cheaper.

I’m just not sure if the S7-300 is programmed using the same software as the S7-200

But will it turn out that, in the end, Siemens ends up being more expensive than a Moeller bought new?

There’s a company near Warsaw that does smart installations for detached houses using Moeller’s XI/ON or Wago, and they warn against the costs of Siemens’ Simatic

The S7-300 is programmed using different software to the S7-200, and the two are not compatible. From what I’ve heard, VIPA controllers are cheaper and come with free programming software. Companies often recommend controllers they are more familiar with. It’s best to check for yourself and get quotes for Siemens and Moeller, then compare them in terms of price and capabilities, as well as any future system expansion needs.

Beckhoff. Much cheaper, built-in Ethernet, support for distributed I/O over Ethernet, free software and a building automation library available (unnecessary for a detached house).
On a separate note, I consider the use of PLCs and other complex building automation systems in detached houses to be an unnecessary expense.

Wago currently has a promotion on a starter kit with a KNX bus, so you’d have a versatile and affordable solution

500 E including software, KNX input/output modules, a KNX-IP master controller, a power supply, and a programming cable – so it’s definitely the best deal available right now.

You program using CodeSys, so it’s a universal language

I would also recommend Wago or Beckhoff controllers, which are ideal for such applications, and CoDeSys, which is a very user-friendly programming environment.

gacolini wrote:

I would also recommend Wago or Beckhoff controllers, which are ideal for such applications, and CoDeSys, which is a very user-friendly programming environment.

All of the above are programmed using CoDeSys; Moeller controllers are supported by the Polish version of CoDeSys ...
Additionally: the XC200 has a built-in web server which handles visualisation and the programming of home settings via a standard web browser...

Good luck

Thank you for all the replies so far

Beckhoff is actually the same product as Wago, just a different name

And how does it compare price-wise? Is it similar, or do you have to pay extra for the Wago name

Added after 4 [minutes]:

falowniki.com wrote:

gacolini wrote:

I would also recommend Wago or Beckhoff controllers, which are ideal for such applications, and CoDeSys, a very user-friendly programming environment.

All of the above are programmed using CoDeSys; Moeller controllers are supported by the Polish version of CoDeSys ...
Additionally: the XC200 has a built-in web server which handles visualisation and the programming of home settings via a standard web browser...

Good luck

However, the XC200 is very expensive; if I’m not mistaken, the price starts at 5,000 PLN

Added after 6 [minutes]:

andrzejek23 wrote:

On a side note, I consider the use of PLCs and other complex building automation systems in detached houses to be an unnecessary expense.

I also had similar doubts about whether it was worth it, but now it’s too late – I have to
get the system up and running somehow.

I hope the PLC controller will help me automate certain tasks, and I’ve got plenty of ideas in mind

Added after 3 [minutes]:

grudziu wrote:

Wago currently has a promotion on a starter kit with a KNX bus, so you’d have a versatile and inexpensive solution

I just don’t know how to use KNX with Wago because my installation is star-shaped. Would I need to run an additional EIB-Bus?

And I’d still be dependent on the company that has the KNX programming software.

Please correct me if I’m wrong

The smallest unit in the XC200 series can be purchased for around 2,500 PLN (excl. VAT)...
or alternatively use the easyControl controller (also CoDeSys-programmable and with an Ethernet option)
you can also use the XC100 via CANopen to connect to a 5" touchscreen operator panel and from the panel via FTP to a PC

Let me know the maximum you’d like to invest (I know you want to keep it as low as possible
and we’ll find something suitable...
Best regards

falowniki.com wrote:

The smallest unit in the XC200 series can be purchased for around 2,500 PLN (excl. VAT)...
or alternatively use the easyControl controller (also CoDeSys-programmable and with an Ethernet option)
you can also use the XC100 via CANopen to connect to a 5" touchscreen operator panel and from the panel via FTP to a PC

Let me know the maximum you’d like to invest (I know it should be as little as possible
and we’ll find something suitable...
Best regards

So perhaps let’s start with how many inputs and outputs I have

I’ve been playing around with the setup a bit and it turns out I need a controller for 96 inputs and 144 outputs.

Or rather, that’s how many I have, but if it ends up costing a horrendous amount, I don’t need to control everything

How should I factor in the cost of building the control cabinet – i.e. controllers, relays, load cells, etc.?

Added after 4 [minutes]:

falowniki.com wrote:

the smallest unit in the XC200 series can be bought for around 2,500 PLN net...

BTW, where can you buy it at that price?

Added after 4 [minutes]:

How much might a Wago starter kit like this cost
http://www.wago.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-53EFFEF9-1D366A95/wago/style.xsl/plk-2078.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener ugc" class="postlink inline" title="" > Wago starter kit

I can’t find the price online at the moment

Firstly, generally speaking, KNX = EIB, so I will use these terms interchangeably.

Secondly, the EIB bus can be star-shaped or linear – any configuration (except closed loops)

Thirdly, there is only one ETS programme for devices from all manufacturers, whether Siemens, ABB, Gira, Berker or others (Wago has also released an ETS plugin for its devices). You download the vd1-vd5 files from the manufacturers’ websites and the device is immediately visible in ETS

fourthly, ETS sometimes costs €500, sometimes €1000 (depending on promotions), but the 30-day demo version can programme up to 20 devices.

Fifthly, look for a version of ETS better than the demo

Sixthly – you don’t need to attend a KNX Partner course to learn KNX. Once you’ve chosen a manufacturer, check whether they’re flexible in providing training or demonstrating how to programme devices and what the process involves.

Seventhly – you can always contact me regarding KNX programming or many other companies. With CodeSys, you can give me a go; I’m not an expert, but I’ve programmed a few things and even done some integration.

With other standards, especially proprietary ones, you might struggle to find the right person.

vbass [at] vbass . pl

grudziu wrote:

[code]
Firstly, broadly speaking, KNX = EIB, so I will use these terms interchangeably.

Sure, I know

grudziu wrote:

Fourthly, ETS sometimes costs €500, sometimes €1000 (depending on promotions), but the 30-day demo version can programme up to 20 devices.

Fifthly, look for a version of ETS that’s better than the demo

I’m interested in this better version; where can I find such better versions?

grudziu wrote:

Seventhly – you can always contact me regarding KNX programming

Why not? Please send me more information via private message

As I mentioned, you can control the system from a PC, and it doesn’t have to be the latest model. You can buy EIB software and a modem for your PC (or make one yourself); you can use Ethernet modules as inputs/outputs. You can also control it wirelessly using WiFi or ZigBee modules. And I think this is much cheaper than a standard PLC controller. And it’s certainly a more cost-effective solution.

Does anyone know how much the Wago starter kits cost? I can't find a price list anywhere.

up, up

Is no one else going to share their thoughts on PLC controllers?

Take a look at http://www.automatyka.com.pl/, http://www.automatykab2b.pl/ and Astor. There you’ll find distributors of various controllers and automation solutions, as well as training materials and articles – you might find something useful.

Have you looked at the Fatek PLC? I’m currently considering using it for my building automation system.

It seems to me that the best approach to building automation is to base it on distributed systems, which improves its reliability. In such systems, we do not need a large, powerful, complex and significantly more expensive PLC. We can use smaller units that exchange the most important information with each other via a ‘network’ but also operate independently of one another. Today, you can buy I/O modules that operate over a network (RS485, EIB, Ethernet, Wi-Fi or ZigBee, etc.) that are compatible with any PLC or PC (SoftPLC). This allows such a module to be installed right next to the actuator, which reduces the installation costs of the entire system and enables its expansion as required.

I agree with these words.
Firstly, a distributed or multi-master network with some local expansion modules.

And secondly – if, for example, there is dimmable lighting and we want to dim or brighten it alternately by holding down a button for a long time, doing this via a PLC is not such a simple task. The same applies, for example, to a so-called lighting ‘scene’ (scenario) and saving the current state by holding down a button for a long time and assigning that state to a particular scene. You’ll need to come up with a bit of a non-standard programme.

What's so difficult about that? Both dimming and brightening with a single button by holding it down for a few seconds is a job that takes five minutes. In general, I think that programming a PLC for a small building is a relatively simple matter, unlike industrial automation.

shadoweyes wrote:

Visit http://www.automatyka.com.pl/ , http://www.automatykab2b.pl/ and Astor. There you’ll find distributors of various controllers and automation solutions, as well as training materials and articles – perhaps something will be useful.

I’ve already looked through almost everything, or at least what’s on Polish websites; nevertheless, I’m asking because I want to hear the pros and cons of a specific PLC from people who know PLCs well

Added after 8 [minutes]:

Muliprojekt, which offers the Fatek controller, also has dimmers in its range

Fatek dimmers

And what do you think of this controller anyway? It’s very popular on the Murator forum, for example

Fatek controller

Added after 8 [minutes]:

andrzejek23 wrote:

What’s so difficult about that? Both dimming and brightening with a single button by holding it down for longer is a function that takes five minutes to implement. In general, I think that programming a PLC for a small building is a relatively simple matter, unlike industrial automation.

And is it possible to program a PLC controller in this way?

The absence of occupants in a given room causes the TV to switch off

In other words, if the motion detector does not detect any movement in the room for a period of, say, 60 minutes, the power supply to the socket is cut off and the TV is switched off.

Re-entering the room restores power to that socket, allowing the TV to be switched on later using the remote control


A rather silly idea for children and a TV that plays 24 hours a day.

Everything can be done. Although some things you have to make yourself or adapt existing items so that they meet your requirements.

andrzejek23 wrote:

What's so difficult about that? Both dimming and brightening with a single button by holding it down for a few seconds is a job that takes five minutes. In general, I think that programming a PLC for a small building is a relatively simple matter, unlike industrial automation.

You know, I’m writing partly from my own experience, which is different from controlling the whole system with a single controller. I’ve integrated PLCs into EIB or LON networks. It was necessary to develop quite a substantial section of code to ensure it worked in accordance with those communication standards.

And how many buildings have you commissioned using PLC-based building automation?

To do everything on a single PLC, you’d need a ‘powerhouse’. And whether industrial automation is more complex is a relative concept. There are smart building systems that are more complex than many industrial automation setups. In any case, when browsing websites on industrial automation and smart buildings, manufacturers tend to favour distributed systems rather than a single PLC controller.

I haven’t read the whole thread out of laziness, but I’ll put in my two cents: before deciding on the system architecture, check whether the chosen controller will be able to handle all the I/O (and a few spares for the future).
99 + 144 = A LOT!

See halla2007 - http://neuron.com.pl/hall2007.html
It could be the perfect addition to a PLC-based system, although at the moment it only communicates with Hallchip processors.
Wojtek

I recommend Siemens.
Depending on the size of the installation, go for the S7-200 or S7-300 series. Unfortunately, you’ll need various software packages, but you can find everything online – demo versions, of course.

You can also buy a starter kit quite cheaply.

Hello
I also recommend Fatek. It’s free software, very easy to program via an RS232 cable or a standard USB cable (for the MCU version). Distributor’s technical support: www.multiprojekt.pl. There’s no need to buy expensive PPI or MPI adapters, as is the case with Siemens.
I have already run quite a few applications on this hardware, which operates stably and reliably in truly extreme conditions (concrete plants).
So I can recommend this controller with a clear conscience; add a Weintek panel to that and you have a truly professional building automation system.
To give you an idea of the cost:
FBS-20 MC controller, 12 inputs, 8 outputs – approx. 250 USD
FBS-24 EX module, 24 inputs – approx. 100 USD (4 units will give 108 inputs)
FBS-24 EYT module, 24 outputs – approx. 100 USD (6 units will give 152 outputs)
FBS-CBE module, Ethernet – approx. 110 USD

neuron wrote:

See halla2007 - http://neuron.com.pl/hall2007.html
It could be an excellent addition to a PLC-based system, although for the moment it only communicates with Hallchip processors.
wojtek

I’ve seen this solution, but I’m not quite sure how to use it and integrate it with a PLC controller