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Understanding RCD Response Time: Will We Feel an Impulse Before It Trips?

Mariusz448 43604 27
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  • #1 7641069
    Mariusz448
    Level 16  
    Hello! I have a slightly strange question that is bothering me. The response time of a good RCD is 0.04 seconds. For example, when a hair dryer falls into the bathtub. I have a question: will we feel an unpleasant impulse before the switch trips? One electrician told me that it was, and another that this time was so short that the brain would not have time to "register" it.

    I will add right away that I have no intention of testing it in practice.
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  • #2 7641152
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
  • #3 7641203
    darek_wp
    Level 28  
    Even with a quick response time of the switch, you will still feel it.
  • #4 7641205
    elpapiotr
    Electrician specialist
    Hello.

    What current, colleague ( Bronek22 ) I'm writing ?
    And I thought it should not exceed 30 mA.
  • #5 7641547
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
  • #6 7641657
    retrofood
    VIP Meritorious for electroda.pl
    ele_pp wrote:
    Hello.

    What current, colleague ( Bronek22 ) I'm writing ?
    And I thought it should not exceed 30 mA.


    And why?
  • #7 7641755
    piotr_krak
    Level 25  
    If the current does not exceed 30mA, how will the switch know to turn off????

    that is why
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  • #8 7641942
    roks
    Automation specialist
    Hello

    In residual current circuit breakers with a rated residual current of 30mA, the operating threshold is 15mA, precisely to prevent a current greater than 30mA from flowing, which is still considered "safe"

    Of course, we are talking about basic cameras, the situation is slightly different for short-delay or selective cameras.

    regards
  • #9 7641974
    kkas12
    Level 43  
    Hello!

    The RCD switch operates with a leakage current in the range of 0.5 to 1IΔn. If the switch does not operate within this interval during the test, the driver is disqualified. It is therefore clear that its task is not to limit the shock current, but the duration of the shock.

    As for the title question:
    Quote:
    ...when the dryer falls into the bathtub. I have a question: will we feel an unpleasant impulse before the switch trips? One electrician told me that it was, and another that this time was so short that the brain would not have time to "register" it.
    then the situation should be considered in two ways.

    In the first case, when the metal bathtub is covered with equipotential bonding, the operation of the (functional) switch will turn off the voltage. However, it cannot be said that a person staying in a bathtub will not experience shock current flowing through his body.

    In the second case, when the bathtub is made of non-conductive materials, or even metal, but is not covered by equipotential bonding because there are no foreign conductive parts in the bathroom, i.e. the bathtub is actually at free potential, the switch will not trip, but there is no risk of electric shock. This is not the case because a bathtub isolated from the earth potential does not allow any part of the current to "escape" into it.
    However, of course, under no circumstances should you experiment.

    The conclusions to be drawn are obvious. You should try as much as possible to eliminate sockets from bathrooms and, of course, washing machines that have already settled there.
    The bathroom was the place where the most serious accidents occurred due to environmental conditions. Today, when the technologies used in construction allow for the complete elimination of the earth's potential from one room, it can become one of the safest places in the apartment.
    Let's not change our attachment to the bad tradition of this trend.
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  • #10 7641992
    retrofood
    VIP Meritorious for electroda.pl
    piotr_krak wrote:
    If the current does not exceed 30mA, how will the switch know to turn off????

    that is why


    first things first: the trigger threshold is explained below, don't be misleading
    and second of all, what does gingerbread have to do with a windmill? the topic is time down the switch trips, so once it trips, we don't care at all.

    Added after 3 [minutes]:

    roks wrote:
    , just to prevent a current greater than 30mA from flowing, which is still considered "safe"


    Not "so that a current greater than 30 mA would not flow", only to limit the duration of current flow greater than 30 mA. And what the current will be, the RCD has no influence on it.
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  • #11 7644212
    electrician
    Level 11  
    Quote:
    The response time of a good RCD is 0.04 seconds

    yes, but for a current of 5xIΔn
    for a current equal to IΔn, this time may be 0.3 seconds

    ...and you can definitely feel it and feel it properly.
  • #12 7645943
    jotko
    Level 24  
    Please read this article which clears all your doubts.
    I suggest you start with the chapter "Functions and classification of residual current circuit breakers"
    Link
    Regards
  • #13 7646101
    GBW
    Level 31  
    electrician wrote:
    Quote:
    The response time of a good RCD is 0.04 seconds

    yes, but for a current of 5xIΔn
    for a current equal to IΔn, this time may be 0.3 seconds

    ...and you can definitely feel it and feel it properly.

    I perform RCD measurements and from experience I know that the activation time at IΔn is usually 20-30 ms.
    The maximum activation time of electric shock protection is a completely different problem and concerns circuit breakers.
  • #14 7648364
    lu106
    Level 15  
    First of all, times are different:
    When we measure the efficiency of an RCD, these should be the results

    15mA for 0.5 seconds The RCD cannot turn off
    30mA RCD will trip after 0.3 seconds
    60mA RCD will trip after 0.15 seconds
    150mA RCD will trip after 0.04 seconds
  • #15 7649666
    GBW
    Level 31  
    lu106 wrote:
    First of all, times are different:
    When we measure the efficiency of an RCD, these should be the results

    15mA for 0.5 seconds The RCD cannot turn off
    30mA RCD will trip after 0.3 seconds
    60mA RCD will trip after 0.15 seconds
    150mA RCD will trip after 0.04 seconds

    It would be worth asking whether these are the actual measured times or the maximum disqualifying RCD?
  • #16 7649700
    lu106
    Level 15  
    GBW wrote:
    lu106 wrote:
    First of all, times are different:
    When we measure the efficiency of an RCD, these should be the results

    15mA for 0.5 seconds The RCD cannot turn off
    30mA RCD will trip after 0.3 seconds
    60mA RCD will trip after 0.15 seconds
    150mA RCD will trip after 0.04 seconds

    It would be worth asking whether these are the actual measured times or the maximum disqualifying RCD?


    these are the maximum times allowed by the RCD

    New Sonel meters allow you to check RCDs through various currents and operating times.
  • #17 7655918
    parura09
    Level 13  
    As far as I know, the reaction time of the differential current switch should be less than 0.2 s, which means it should act faster than the eska. As for the shock, I heard that you only feel a cramp in your hand and the differential switch works immediately.
  • #18 7656038
    jurekN
    Level 23  
    I agree with my colleague GBW, when performing RCD measurements at IΔn, the activation time is from 20-30 ms, usually twenty-something ms.
  • #19 7656561
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
  • #20 7656570
    lu106
    Level 15  
    parura09 wrote:
    As far as I know, the response time of the differential current switch should be less than 0.2 s, which means it should act faster than the eska. As for the shock, I heard that you only feel a cramp in your hand and the differential switch works immediately.


    Such a current affects the heart and if the flow path is hand-to-hand, the hand cramps may not be the same, but the effects will be greater.

    The current flowing through the human body is calculated using Ohm's law.
    The size of the current depends on many factors, mainly the quality of the skin and the current flow path.

    I certainly do not recommend testing the RCD on yourself, think what will happen if it doesn't work and your muscles contract and you grab the wire and can't tear yourself away.

    There's no fun with the current, it's better to think 10 times before regretting it

    Regards
  • #21 7657099
    GBW
    Level 31  
    Bronek22 wrote:


    Many colleagues do not distinguish between safety requirements and device operation times.
    Bronek

    Especially since these times are separated by an order of magnitude.
  • #22 7658998
    parura09
    Level 13  
    Oh, sorry, I made a mistake, the operating time of the differential is 0.02s.
  • #23 7671251
    heya1986
    Level 11  
    Reply to my friend's post. In the Discovery program "In a Cage of Time", they measured the time it takes for information about pain to reach the brain of a person who sees no threat. I don't remember the exact value, but it stuck in my mind that the body responded after 100 ms to a prick in the foot. The hand is probably 60ms, the head 20ms, but I won't cut off my head. :D Perhaps the information flows faster, but the development of a reaction is limited by the inertia of human muscles.

    I wonder if if the pain information is interrupted in less than 60:100ms, the brain will ignore it :idea: :?:
  • #24 7671626
    retrofood
    VIP Meritorious for electroda.pl
    heya1986 wrote:

    I wonder if if the pain information is interrupted in less than 60:100ms, the brain will ignore it :idea: :?:


    I assure you that he will not ignore it. Even much shorter ones. I cannot provide further details because I am not authorized to do so, but the results of such research are included in my sister's doctoral dissertation. Although they concern experimental animals and not humans, I think it is no different in humans.
  • #25 8514215
    KaW
    Level 34  
    I would like to thank GBW for the information about the operating time of the differential disconnector.
    In the ABB materials given earlier, this is shown in one of the charts
    but clearly and practically no one confirmed it.
    Today I looked at a device that is available for purchase in a store in Łódź. It is an adapter socket with a differential switch with a power of up to 1kW. Prod. ELESTER-ŁÓDŹ, but the disconnection time was 40ms. It seemed a bit too long to me - as many as two network periods?

    Is there a disconnect switch that will disconnect the device in 10 milliseconds?
    Because I think that's what security is all about.
  • #26 8514318
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
  • #27 8515142
    Miwhoo
    Electric installations specialist
    For example: RCD Legrand 1-phase 25A, In=0.03A is as follows:

    ta(0.5In) ≥ 300ms RCD does not turn off
    ta(In) ≈ 10ms
    ta(2In) ≈ 8ms
    ta(5In) ≈ 7ms

    Most measured RCDs show this way.

    Like it or not, know that if these 150mA flow even for 7ms, it may not kill you immediately, but rather scare you, resulting in an unconditioned reflex and often followed by a fall, a fall from a height or a connection to the voltage [e.g. working with a powered switchgear]. This is the so-called indirect effect of the flow of electric current through the human body...
  • #28 8954055
    KaW
    Level 34  
    Because - as usual - I am interested in this topic - I would like to kindly inform you that
    plug-in device - with a disconnection time of 30ms is advertised
    on Ukrainian websites - electrical magazines. M/ including www.acko.ua and probably www.iek.com.ua.
    Differential disconnectors - industrial - generally have a disconnection time of 100ms - electromechanical operation
    /I think so /.
    As for the plug disconnectors - they are shown from the back of the plug structure - you can only see the same protrusions as in German power sockets. I think it is a Ukrainian production for a German customer.
    This disconnector, probably 1kW, manufactured by ŁÓDŹ - available at www.elel.pl. /40ms/

Topic summary

The discussion centers around the response time of Residual Current Devices (RCDs) and whether individuals will feel an electric shock before the device trips. Participants note that while RCDs typically have a response time of around 0.04 seconds, the sensation of an electric shock can still be felt, especially with currents exceeding 30mA. The conversation highlights that RCDs are designed to limit the duration of current flow rather than prevent electric shock entirely. Various responses clarify the operational thresholds and trip times of RCDs, emphasizing that even brief exposure to high currents can lead to significant physiological effects. The importance of understanding the limitations of RCDs in providing safety against electric shocks is also discussed, with references to specific models and their performance metrics.
Summary generated by the language model.
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