Newly Built House Missing Grounding and Incomplete Electrical Work

Hello.

I know that the topic has been discussed many times on the forum, but I haven`t found a specific answer.

I have a problem with 2 cases:

1.
Today I went to see a newly built house and after seeing it, my hands dropped again.
There is NO grounding installed in it!! True, it wasn`t in the project, because I also watched it. Signatures, of course, of master engineers with construction licenses on each page of the project, and the project is the same crap as many [in terms of electrical installation]...
There is, however, a 5x6mm^2 connection for an installed power of 25kW and a PEN distribution in the meter box.

I asked the builders if they had welded a hoop iron to the reinforcement of the benches, and they looked at me like I was an idiot and replied with a smile on their faces: "Sir, why would anyone need that..."

2.
The second house, as a correction, because the electrician took the money and disappeared, there are only wires laid, boxes filled, wires in the boxes not connected, the switchboard not assembled. However, there is a 5x10mm^2 connection, a PEN distribution in the meter box and no grounding. Conductive parts [copper central heating installation and furnace] connected with a 4mm^2 cable introduced into the switchboard. It follows that my predecessor`s assumption was to attach the equipotential bonding to the PE bus in the switchboard, and the grounding in the meter box.

Both buildings do not have lightning protection or GSW installations.

How to solve the problem of lack of grounding and GSW in both buildings to solve the problem according to art and successfully pass acceptance measurements.

I started making customers aware that grounding would be necessary.
Which method will be more effective: driving steel rods into the ground, connecting them with a hoop and inserting them into the building, or digging a hoop as a horizontal or ring earth electrode? The house stands on a small hill.

Do you often encounter lack of grounding and GSW in new buildings, or PE grounding provided in the box?

Thank you in advance for your response.
Regards.
Miwhoo.

Hello.

Bronek22 wrote:

Lightning protection installation must be made.

Yes - and why, and on what basis?

Hello.

Buddy Bronek22, there is no obligation to install a lightning protection system, the probability of a lightning strike was determined to be 8x10^-6.
From what I know, the ground resistance in this case should be more than 30 Ohm.

The second thing is that this "electrician" reached an agreement with the owner of the house [the plumber] that they would help each other. The plumber fulfilled his obligation, but the electrician did not. It`s simple. The client told me that he was fed up with being asked to complete work that had been pending since the summer of 2009.

Quote:

Buddy, the installation is not finished. You need to do everything that is missing. Take measurements after completing all the work.

Quote:

The specialist will know what to do.

Friend Bronek22, I`m curious if you were so brilliant and know-it-all from the very beginning of your electrical installation career. When writing a new post, I expected an answer and discussion on the topic that bothered me, not writing texts that an expert would know.
I know how a proper installation should be constructed, but I was mainly interested in technical aspects and implementation details, because so far I have never encountered a lack of a grounding bus in a facility.

I know it`s easy to criticize and point out mistakes, but I guess that`s not the point.
I happened to correct someone, and that`s double the work.
I thought the forum was there to seek help, not to post posts to the ridicule of others.

Regards.
Miwhoo.

Bronek22 wrote:

Lightning protection installation must be made.

Obvious mistake. Grounding must be done. You can talk about lightning protection later, but not necessarily.

Colleagues, please focus on the substantive answer, not on "scoring" the discussants.

I am also personally interested in the topic of grounding. I also had contact with two such buildings. One residential powered 5x10 and recreational powered 5x4. In each of them, there were no earthing electrodes, etc. in the project. The contractors did according to: projects. What`s the deal with the grounding in the meter box in front of the property? Yes, it will all work or there may be a problem later. What if all the measurements are OK?

Hello!

This whole situation with half-finished projects comes from the fact that the provision in the regulation on the conditions to be met by buildings is treated too literally... on the use of separated PE and N conductors in all circuits. This obviously drains the brain and frees some people from thinking. persons. When you add to this the alleged order to ground the PEN division point, then we have the same results as our colleagues present.

We must not succumb to the incompetence of senior princes from energy companies when they write nonsense in TWP about the obligation to divide PEN in the connector. We should demand a legal basis for this baseless and useless invention.
Only later must the contractor sign a declaration that the installation complies with the standards and is safe.
Can it be safe when there is no grounded PE in the facility and there are no GSW or main equipotential connections?
Will it still be safe if the protective conductor between the ZK and the switchgear is damaged? Such damage may not be noticeable for a very long time.

Six years ago, I had a problem with the reception of the facility because I laid a four-core cable from the connector to the building.
The inspector from ZE didn`t say anything, but two days later I received a negative report in the mail. The reason was this cable.
I wrote a letter in which I requested the legal basis for this decision and informed that I would contact the experts of the Wrocław SEP.
After an hour, I received a telephone message that I could collect the documents from ZE.
It`s been normal since then.
Don`t be afraid, friends, of the "war" on energy. This is not a war, just an indication of stupidity.

Artificial foundation earthing should be mandatory in every building constructed today (of course by an electrician or under his supervision). The GSW must be connected to this earth electrode, as well as all foreign conductive parts present in the building and the PE bus in the switchgear, i.e. all accessible conductive parts. This will prevent dangerous voltage from appearing at your fingertips between foreign and accessible parts.
This should be the standard of conduct for an electrician.

The GSW grounding resistance has no significance from the point of view of protection against electric shock. Any result is acceptable here, but if the earth electrode is also used for lightning protection (and most often it is or will be - lightning arresters), then its resistance should not exceed 10Ω.

I believe that the wlz between the connector and the building should not have a cross-section smaller than 10mm² in the case of copper and 16mm² in the case of aluminum.
Its cross-section should not be dependent on today`s power allocation.
The installation should be functional for fifteen/twenty years. In this case it probably won`t be

Hello.

Thank you, kkas12, for your comprehensive answer.

kkas12 wrote:

Artificial foundation earthing should be mandatory in every building constructed today (of course by an electrician or under his supervision).

The biggest problem in our industry is that an electrician is needed only when the building is in a shell state, open, or more often closed, or before the windows are installed, to hang an alarm - a makeshift device, until the foam in the windows hardens...

How to perform grounding in such a system?

I`m thinking about running a hoop iron under the switchboard [there will be some forging, because the plasters and screeds are already ready] and making a GSW under it, because all the equalizing connections are connected to the switchboard. I will take them out of the switchboard and connect them to the GSW, and I will run a new cable to the PE grounding in the switchboard.

I know what and how in the building, because the subject is no stranger to me, but the stairs start outside the building, because I haven`t "made" the grounding for the building yet, and I wouldn`t just like to dig it in just to be on the safe side...
How to physically perform grounding, to what depth to dig, what length of hoop iron should be buried, or how many rods and to what depth should be inserted to obtain 30 Ohms, and unfortunately I haven`t got a grounding resistance meter yet...

Thank you in advance for your response.
Regards.
Miwhoo.

Hello!

Another myth about the unexceedable value of earth resistance.
This mythical 30Ω becomes a wonderful and indisputable value.
This value is for the professional power industry. And it concerns PEN grounding in their networks.
Its purpose is to improve the effective PEN earthing resistance in the network. Its purpose is to improve or keep their parameters in check. Theirs, not yours, buddy Miwhoo .
These requirements do not apply to you as the contractor of the installation behind the connector (i.e. beyond the operating boundary). These are two different and separate worlds.

It is your responsibility to ground the protective conductor in the facility by connecting it to the grounded GSW in the building. And thus giving the same potential to all available and foreign parts.
And that is your task.

The ideal is an artificial foundation earth electrode. However, it is often unattainable due to the halt in the designer`s development, or due to the age of the building in which the installation is being modernized or replaced. Then the electrical contractor must install such an earthing device.
If a lightning protection installation is to be installed in an old and modernized facility, then surface earthing should be installed. Popular wrapper. Both the GSW and the discharge wires of the lightning protection system should be connected to this earth electrode. In this case, the resistance of such (common) grounding should not exceed 10Ω.
However, if there is no lightning protection, then any value of the GSW earthing resistance is acceptable, because from the point of view of protection against electric shock it has no significance.

However, do not expect advice on how many rods should be driven in or how many meters of hooping should be laid to obtain any specific value. Here you have to take measurements on an ongoing basis. Of course, with corrections to the meter readings.
From my experience, I can tell you that the resistance of the foundation earthing electrodes I made never exceeded 10Ω. Regardless of the soil in which the foundation was placed.
Of course, these were artificial earth electrodes.

Sorry, but I`ll join the topic. GSW is the main equalization bus - right? You write here that it is a mistake to install such a bus in the building`s switchboard, so where is the best place to install it?

GSW is the main equipotential bus, it is the connection of the building ground and equipotential bonding.

The pipe ends in the GSW, then it spreads through copper wires to external conductive parts [central heating pipes, central heating furnace and others] and to the PE bus in the switchboard.

Hello!

Quote:

GSW is the main equalization bus - right? You write here that it is a mistake to install such a bus in the building`s switchboard, so where is the best place to install it?

Friend radekch24 raised the important issue of replacing the GSW with the OPE bus of the facility`s main switchboard when other installations are made of non-conductive materials. This can be done, but in my opinion, such a solution may make it difficult to measure the earthing resistance of the PE cable or PE bus.
Some people may also consider the introduction of CC equalizing conductors into the switchboard as a sign of unprofessionalism.

I will present how this issue was solved in Ireland, where there are practically no other water installations than sewage systems made in metal pipes.
In fact, a separate GSW is not performed here. The ground is connected directly to the PE bus in the switchboard, but the three or six foot (approximately 1 to 2 meter) long point earth electrode itself must be placed at the front of the building and connected to a Cu10mm² cable. The connection itself must be made in a special box intended for this purpose

and placed flush with the ground level.
This is the local standard and please do not judge whether it is a good or bad solution.

kkas12 wrote:

From my experience, I can tell you that the resistance of the foundation earthing electrodes I made never exceeded 10Ω. Regardless of the soil in which the foundation was placed. Of course, these were artificial earth electrodes.

The whole problem is that you have to BE on the construction site before the footings are poured.

In that case, I only need a ring earthing device and a meter, because the switchgear design includes B+C surge protectors.

On the second construction site, I will also use ring earthing, although there are no protectors in the project, I will still take measurements, I don`t like measuring "by eye". I prefer to have a clear conscience.

Thank you very much for providing informative answers.

Regards.
Miwhoo.

Hello, my friend Bronek22.

There is no lightning protection system in the project [strike probability 8x10^-6], there are no houses in the area, and the investor does not want to install a lightning protection system and will give it to me in writing, because we have already talked about it. Since he`s set on NO, I won`t force him to do so.
I made him aware of the possible risks of not having a lightning protection device, but he still says no. There is a forest and a MV overhead line in the area.

I started this topic to learn how to perform grounding, because I haven`t had such a problem yet. I was mainly concerned about the effectiveness of the grounding, whether horizontal or vertical, and I received a satisfactory answer from my friend: make and measure it. Until recently, I was employed in a company that worked as a subcontractor, mainly in newly built blocks of flats, single-family houses were rare.
I`ve been on my own for a while now, I`m just starting my business and I`m taking all the orders, because I don`t have the opportunity to pick and choose at the moment. So far, there have simply been no problems with lack of grounding. I don`t want to make a mistake, so I prefer to first make sure that my actions are correct, or ask older colleagues for practical advice.
After all, one learns throughout one`s life.

Regards.
Miwhoo.

What is an OPE splint?

From what a gentleman from SEP once told me, he said that lightning protection is required in buildings where 50 people or more live.

Hello.

After today`s call and visit to the client, one problem solved itself.
It turned out that I was too expensive, there was someone who would do what I did for half the price. When I asked how much he would charge for digging a hole around the house [about 100 m], he replied that the "new" electrician said that there was NO NEED TO EARTH THE BUILDING, because the grounding was in the meter box.

Wanting to do the right thing, I turned out to be a fraud :)

Regards.
Miwhoo.

Hello!


Well, as you can see, it is difficult to be a prophet in your own country.

Offer the investor that after completing the work, you will inspect and test the installation for a symbolic PLN 1 plus VAT.

Hello.

I`m afraid. Now the whole village will probably throw stones at me when I pass by...

I could even do it for free, because I offered to pick up the installation, but now they look at me like I`m a thief
As I asked, what if the measurements go beyond the permissible values? The answer was: I have a friend, he will take the measurements and arrange everything.

I thanked her nicely, said goodbye, got into the car and drove on...

Poland is a very beautiful country.

Miwhoo wrote:

I`m afraid. Now the whole village will probably throw stones at me when I pass by...

You`re wrong. My friend kkas12 wrote:

Quote:

Well, as you can see, it is difficult to be a prophet in your own country.

Well, this applies not only to you. Your would-be client too. Don`t think the whole village will listen to him.

Welcome back.

Today I got a flower again. A fresh house, already finished, powered by a temporary RB, no GSW or grounding in the facility. Switching from RB to the target measurement connector. According to ZE, the TN-C network.

The cable from the building`s main switchboard to the measurement connector is routed [5x16mm2]. A gentleman from ZE came to install the meter and "by the way" connected the cable in the switchboard and "Z". Equalizing connections of accessible elements introduced into the switchboard and connected to the PE bus. PE in the building not grounded. PE cable in "Z" connected to the hoop iron [grounding of the cable line from the Z side]. Cable length from RG to Z approx. 15 m.

How does this relate to the obligation to distribute PEN in the RG and to ground the division point in the building?
What to do in such a case, if it happens again, since ZE tolerates this method of connection [I called and asked, they said 5x10 cable, separation in "Z" and grounding in "Z"]?

Hello.
Old topic, but I would like to piggyback on it with a question.
The house is in a shell state, and unfortunately the foundation grounding has not been done. The situation is similar to the one in the post above, i.e. a 5-core WLZ cable with PE and N division is connected to the house (it is a small single-family house). ZE grounded the cable at the meter box, located in the fence line about 8 meters from the building. EP.
Please advise what else should be done to ensure proper grounding and GSW in the building. I`m asking because the electrician who is currently carrying out the electrical installation (final stage) claims that there is no need for any equalizing bus or additional grounding.
I have great doubts whether this earthing electrode made by ZE will be enough.
Therefore, I am asking for advice on what I should expect from an electrician. This is a very important issue for me because I would like to live safely at home in the future.

Regards

Miwhoo wrote:

the "new" electrician said that there was NO NEED TO EARTH THE BUILDING, because the grounding was in the meter box.

And you agree to the use of an earth electrode in ZK? I`m asking because in my area they don`t agree to it.

I don`t know if it`s okay, but "experts" from ZE, when they come for the "job" of connecting to the network, don`t see a problem...

Maybe it`s not possible, but since there is no GSW, there is no hoop or wire exposed anywhere in the building, and the owner knows nothing about, as he put it, "iron buried in the ground", especially about the foundation earthing, so I have the basics assume that there is no grounding
All utilities introduced into the building are plastic, there is no hydrophore...

Besides, the matter is already overdue, because I dealt with them a long time ago.
Nevertheless, I will be happy to answer any technical questions :)

Regards.
Miwhoo.

Miwhoo If I can ask you for help in the matter described above, please advise me what should be done to properly make an earth electrode and a GSW bus. Or maybe grounding at the meter box done by ZE is enough?

The grounding on the power supply side is working, and you need protective grounding, so you cannot connect them together.

It all depends on the existing conditions, if the building is not equipped with overvoltage protection, the resistance value does not really matter. If surge protectors are installed, the ground resistance must be reduced to below 10 ohms.

How to perform well? You need to measure during installation, if it doesn`t work, keep doing it.

There are several types of earth electrode to choose from:
- linear - horizontal [hoop iron - steel tape min. 25x4mm]
- pin [hoop iron + ground probes]
- rimmed [cooper]

Just remember that the deeper the earth electrode is buried, the lower its resistance will be. In addition to all this, there is also the type of soil, because in acidic ones, such as peat or similar, it would be good to pour the so-called "concrete collar" to isolate it from the direct impact of an aggressive environment.

You will find more information about the method of execution after the keywords:
grounding, grounding, equipotential bus, gsw.

Regards.