Options for Electric Heating in a 60 m2, 1st Floor Tenement Apartment with 12 kW Power

Question

Hello. Please help :) I recently moved to my own apartment, 60 m2, tenement house, 1st floor, 3.75 m2 high. There is no gas in the apartment. At the moment, only a tiled storage stove in the bedroom is provided with heating - 3 sq. The power allocation is 12 kw, it is G12. What is the most...

szymonjasiu · Accepted Answer

Consider an electric boiler (eg Kospel) and a water system with radiators. Water heating is also a problem. 9 kW should be enough to heat your apartment - do not forget to talk to an experienced installer on site. If you want to heat DHW electrically and additionally, an appropriate electrical connection between the devices will be necessary (priority, also applies to the electric cooker). With properly selected radiators and the environmental sensor, the system should be financially viable. Regards

am44 · Accepted Answer

In the years 1960-75, I heated an apartment of 52 m2 and 2.75 m high with 3x 1kW heaters in 2 tiled stoves. The bathroom was heated by a 1kW fan heater while showering. The kitchen was not heated. Overall, as I remember, it was bearable, although between 7pm and 10pm you had to put on a swerer sometimes. The heating cost was bearable. Later, I switched to coke-fired CO heating, and then to gas heating. In my colleague's situation, the solution with dynamic furnaces, which can be unloaded according to the program, seems to be completely sensible. My observations show that in identical apartments the cost of gas and storage heating is similar. I saw a chandelier-fan hanging from the ceiling at my friend's living in an old, high tenement house, which was supposed to force warm air down. Apparently it worked.

berga · Accepted Answer

And that's what I was afraid of, because I didn't meet reasonable electrician who would connect the stove in one phase, having 3 phases at his disposal. I repeat, you must talk to an experienced electrician-installer and correctly (i.e. in accordance with the current requirements of the regulations) solve and perform the electrical installation. And the rest will work, more or less as you imagined it. Provided you stay warm at night and live during the day, of course, and these two dynamic ovens will add up somehow. And finally, one more note: when you turn on the oven or any burner of the ceramic hob, you always turn it on full, regardless of the position of the knob. Regards.

guru_kuba · Accepted Answer

I also have an apartment in a 60m2 tenement house on the first floor, but mine is very cold, above the gate, gable on three sides, attic from the top, it can't get any worse. Wooden windows, but not in the worst condition. I was also wondering what to wear here for a long time. After talking to my neighbor, I found out that he had two 2kw storage stoves, the height of the apartment was 2.7m and about 40m2, the ground floor on 3 gable sides, heating only on the 2nd tariff, it was tolerable in the rooms where the stoves were, the rest of the flat was bad. He paid PLN 250 for electricity and got PLN 1,500 compensation for the winter season. Colleague, apartment 3m high, 52m2 on 3 sides neighbors, up and down also, kind of warm. They were heating with 2 convectors, also 2kw (probably 90%) set at 19 degrees, when they walked it was warm, when they turned off it was cold. They paid PLN 300 a month and received PLN 1800 of compensation. They also had a 2-tariff meter. But they were heating not only on the 2nd tariff. I decided to use a coal stove, I separated a 1x2m room right next to the entrance, I put an 8kw cooking stove there, plus stabi tubes and c22 heaters with obi (maybe not the highest quality, but they work). I bought a used 120l boiler. The stove is closed, the fact that it needs to be backfilled, but then you have peace. The water heats up for free while heating the apartment. In order to save money, I do not burn coal yet, but wood (pallets, boards) and I have this heat for free. The installation cost me about PLN 3,000-4,000. PELLET stoves are a very interesting solution. They look great (fireplaces with live fire) do not take up space, you cover once 1.5 days. The disadvantage, the cost of the furnace is around PLN 6,000-7,000 as I knew.

berga · Accepted Answer

If someone suggested it to you, they wanted to confuse you; heating with gas from a cylinder is as expensive as electricity in the first tariff. In my opinion, what you are going to be reasonable and economical, so connect these 2 stoves, but do it right , do the rest of the installation properly as well. I suppose you can afford it. And that's all. Regards.

SzokalML · Answer

I wrote a modest first post because I know from experience that if I write everything right away, no one will want to get through it :) There is a 1.5 kW 40 l boiler for the water. We could use 60-80 liters, but it's not bad, it's enough. Boiler - there is not much room for it, water installation with radiators costs about 8-10 thousand. zloty, - wouldn't it be better to buy accumulation stoves with dynamic discharge? A lot of problems would be gone. - Or maybe infrared, infrapanels? Supposedly effective for high rooms.

mirrzo · Answer

The boiler probably not. Rather little, these 12 kW

SzokalML · Answer

I would not decide to buy an electric boiler, as I wrote before - installation, radiators, etc. - too much work and costs, after all, you can do the same cheaper with accumulation furnaces, (2 2 kw accumulation furnaces - will amount to PLN 2,500). I do not think that 12 kw will be enough. There are only two rooms to be heated (a small bathroom radiator will be installed in the bathroom, there is nothing to heat the hall). But it is known that a reserve of power would be useful. the apartment is relatively warm, because it is almost surrounded all sides with apartments and a staircase - only one wall overlooks the street. But due to the height of the flat - 3.75 m, I have doubts whether classic stoves make sense, because I will heat the ceiling. Hence I wonder about infrared heaters.

robertw28 · Answer

Or maybe air conditioning is a bit more cost, but it pays off during use because it consumes less electricity than it gives off heat and high comfort. I recommend that you think about this solution.

SzokalML · Answer

air conditioning, however, has its drawbacks - it must be serviced after all. And it probably won't be possible in a harsh winter. As I analyzed, the costs are about 1.5 times higher than the storage furnaces with dynamic discharge - and this is what I am considering at the moment, because I have to use the G-12 tariff - probably to change the tariff to normal and heat it with other means, but would it make sense? cost of accumulation furnaces - it will be about PLN 4,000 zlotys. Compared to heating with convectors or oilers, I think it will pay off in 3-4 years.

robertw28 · Answer

Yes, if air conditioning is in the usual tariff. I do not know what the operating costs of such air conditioning are, and you are right, in winter it will certainly have lower efficiency, the best for comparison would be the average efficiency for the entire heating period. There are air-conditioning units on the market with the so-called winter package, in which case they can be used down to -20C. It seems to me that the costs of purchase and operation will be similar, a more detailed analysis of air conditioning efficiency along with a change in temperature may reveal a better option. The possibility of cooling in the summer will be a big advantage here. As for DHW, in this case I would choose flow heaters. In the same tariff, they are more economical and take less than a traditional boiler.

SzokalML · Answer

Unfortunately, there is no power allocation large enough to install a flow one. For now, I'm heating with convectors / ordinary heaters. I am inclined to buy used, dynamic storage heaters, but I am just thinking about the powers. I thought to buy 2 pcs. For each room, each stove for 3 sq. It will cost me less than PLN 2,000. so there is no start to infrared heaters (about PLN 9,000 ...) or other types of heating at all. I'm just wondering - it would probably be better to buy 4 stoves, 2 kw each? For a better temperature distribution? I will not heat the hall, and the bathroom - here I have to buy a small radiator.

świadziu · Answer

I am happy to help and advise, please contact me: http: //www.grzegor .... Please send me an email with your phone number and I will contact you on Monday and try to advise you.

SzokalML · Answer

I am sorry, but I am not interested in buying new stoves - this is an expense of 8 thousand. PLN - I cannot afford it this year.

berga · Answer

Hello. To make it easier for you to make a decision, I will try to present you the problem as if from the end; if you do what you wrote above and winter comes, then in the coldest month, e.g. in January, you will use it for heating 8kW x 10h x 30 days = 2400kWh, i.e. about PLN 840 (counting PLN 0.35 / kWh), not including the boiler. And if we add to this: - some little heater in the bathroom, - stove, fridge, kettle ..., - lighting, and almost all at PLN 0.6 / kWh, the electricity bill will be over PLN 1000. What am I writing this for? Well, I know from practice that people, after paying high heating bills, go to their heads and instead of maintaining the temperature of 23 ° C when it's -20 ° C outside the window, they prefer to wear a sweater and warm slippers and go down with power like that, that the temperature reaches 20 or even 18 ° C to obtain significant savings. Or the sun will come out, it will get warmer, but then the heating power is already lower than the installed power, so why install so much? Anyway, you first need to solve a purely electrical problem, i.e. how to distribute the power of individual receivers into 3 phases so that the protections do not work unnecessarily. Because from what you write, the allocated power is 12kW, and the installation is: 8kW (storage heaters), 2kW (radiator in the bathroom), 2kW (boiler), 8kW (electric cooker), 2kW (kettle), 2kW (washing machine), which is a total of 2 times more because about 24kW, not including lighting and other small receipts. If you take into account the tiled stove and it is true that the flat is warm (here I would be afraid of this height of over 3m, but it can be lowered), in my opinion the solution is simple. And do not say that you will live during the day and warm at night, because again I know from practice that for those with the night tariff the most important are the 2h between 1pm and 3pm, because that's when they heat, cook, wash, vacuum, etc. do everything, because later it is more expensive in the daily tariff than in the single tariff. Regards.

SzokalML · Answer

Thanks for the post, but ... it's not quite like that - I have to complete. - I will rather buy 2 pcs of 3 kW stoves - that is, a total of 6 kW for heating, because the differences in the prices of used stoves are not large, so I will save a lot by buying 2 stoves instead of 4. Only that THEORETICALLY it will not be enough (counting 140 w / m2) - I do not have a temperature of 23 degrees in my plan. The goal is to maintain the temperature of 18 degrees during the day and 16 degrees at night. You count as if everything was to be turned on at once, and yet it is not - it would be money wasted for unnecessary allocation. From my perspective, it looks like this: 6 kw - heaters - 2 stoves, 3 kw each the bathroom is about 2.5 m2 - a 500 watt radiator is enough boiler - 1.5 kw Electric kitchen - 8 kw? Whenever you cook, you turn on 4 burners to the highest level of heating and the oven to full? They advised me to connect the stove in three-phase with a 5x4mm2 cable. Fortunately, I found a reasonable electrician - the cooker is connected to a single-phase cable with a 2.5 mm cable on a separate circuit (according to the formula, the permissible load for this cross-section cable is 5.8 kW. The kitchen has a 5.8 kw + 2 kw oven. So I could fire all the burners full or 2-3 burners full and the oven. I HAVE NOT HAPPENED to use more than 2 burners at once, so I don't even use half of the load capacity. Let's count 3 sq. That's 6 + 1.5 + 0.5 + 3 = some 11th quarters. The periphery will not exceed 1Q. The limit would be exceeded by a washing machine and kettle. However, it does not happen to me to turn on the washing machine in the night tariff (I respect my neighbors). Let's say that only on the weekend we are able to use the 1PM - 3PM tariff for this type of thing. At weekends, we also eat lunch as during the week - rather around 6:00 p.m., and often, not always at home. I know that height is a problem and I plan to do something about it. Simple solution? ie, leave the tiled stove and buy only one storage stove? For now, I heat the room depending on the need, and the room: with a convector, a portable ceramics or a halogen heater, but generally the apartment is warm and there are no problems with the temperature. However, I would prefer a dynamic stove to a tiled stove to shift the heat distribution to the day, because the vision of freezing during the day and hot at night is very unpleasant. Added after 14 [minutes]: I would like to add that I am not delusing myself - we are prepared for monthly bills of PLN 400 in winter, because what to do? It will be fine if we can make it into this amount. If there will be 500, there will be no tragedy either. 3 kw furnaces running on full speed are about PLN 630, i.e. a total of 700 per month in the worst case. But will they really have to go full-blown?

SzokalML · Answer

You're right, of course, but not entirely. This is probably the case with the simplest cookers - one heater = one burner. For me, each burner has 4 separate heaters and 6 heating levels - they heat up in various combinations, all of them turn on at the highest level. a load of 5.8 kW (which is as much as this cable will withstand) would be if I turned on all 4 burners at 6 degrees. But it will never be like that - even on holidays in my life I have never used more than 2 burners at once. As for the stoves, I would not think about it much longer, if it were not for the question of bringing (q 3 kw stove = 140 kg) to the 2nd floor (basically to the first floor, but the number of stairs is the same as to the second). New - come in parts, used - whole ... Added after 6 [minutes]: It is difficult for me to relate to the price relations of the 70's, but today, I also think that after the recent increases, the cost of 1 kWh of gas is not much lower than the price of electricity in the 2nd tariff ... an interesting idea with this fan ...

SzokalML · Answer

And that's a very interesting thing with this fan. I do not know how the costs were distributed in those years compared to other energy sources. The fact is that after the recent increases, gas is not much cheaper. I do not have the option of installing or gas at home, so I cannot even consider it (but still, it would be totally unprofitable for investment).

berga · Answer

I clearly wrote about cookers with a ceramic plate , where the temperature is set by a knob, by a temperature sensor built into each burner, in the same way as it is done in an oven. However, if you have a traditional kitchen with metal tiles, you are absolutely right, in this case it will be better for your installation. But this does not change the fact that the cross-sections of the cables must be selected correctly for the load power and properly secured to ensure effective protection against both electric shock and fire, and this will not be fulfilled by you. If you don't believe me, ask experienced colleagues on the neighboring forum Electricity installations and networks. However, as for the second issue, yesterday (i.e. for 2009) it looks more or less like this: - in the extreme case, it is twice as expensive (assuming the price of 1kWh from gas 0.2PLN, and electricity 0.4PLN) - this will be the case with a condensing boiler heating a large floor area, and with electric heating when we still heat up in the daily tariff, e.g. . bathroom, - about 1.5 will come out more realistically and closer to reality - when we assume the price of PLN 0.24 for gas and PLN 0.36 for electricity in the night tariff, - and it can be even better, e.g. when we compare an old atmospheric gas boiler with an inefficient installation versus highly efficient weather-regulated storage stoves - it can be even cheaper. So this little can in practice have a range of 0 to 100%, depending on who is compared with what and where. Regards.

SzokalML · Answer

I am also talking EXACTLY ABOUT what in the commercial circulation is called a ceramic plate. and it is NOT a kitchen with metal tiles. I looked at a couple of Allegro auctions at random and in most products called ceramic hob works like mine - many heaters for 1 burner, not 1 heater and a bimetal that turns it on / off. I emphasize that the stove is run with a 2.5mm2 copper cable as a separate circuit with its own fuse at the switchboard. In the previous apartment I had gas heating and it was horrendously expensive, because although the stove was several years old, the rest of the installation was antediluvian. In addition to the clean gas price, there is also an improvement in the boiler efficiency, annual inspection, transmission losses and efficiency of the radiators. But comparisons with gas are pure theorism, as I have no alternative to electric heating, because I will not heat myself with gas from a cylinder to get all the oxygen out of my apartment.

SzokalML · Answer

Thanks for the useful information. I was looking for such details. It looks as credible as possible and, in fact, not so tragic ;) I am interested in the fact that they paid PLN 250-300 forecast + compensation. In such a system, they must have had significant positive corrections in the summer. Unless they have so many electricity consumers? For me, for example, the forecast of PLN 105 / month was enough - there were adjustments in my favor. I have new windows, replaced last year. Minus - their large area. (2 windows 240 cm high + one balcony - 320 cm). If I had an influence on it (but I was not a co-owner yet), I would rather wall it up and insert smaller ones. Although, who knows if such windows do not insulate better than those old walls It's just that now it's stupid to make a lowered ceiling ... Fortunately for me, only one wall is outside. this is what it looks like: (I could swing in the area of the rooms, but max 2m2 so it does not matter) Coal / solid fuel stove - I realize that it would be the most economical, but I would rather not be able to do it from start to finish, and entrusting the work to a professional = extension of depreciation to 10 years. With stoves - I'm almost determined for these 3 sq m, but how to carry these 140 kg twice over 40 stairs? : /

am44 · Answer

I used to bring in a storage heater. After removing the cover and taking out the bricks, the rest could be carried on straps for two people. The bricks were brought individually by the wife of a friend with their children. If the staircase is wide enough, then the stoves can be brought in full. 4 people, belts or ropes and a little beer are enough.

guru_kuba · Answer

In my life I have only carried a few stoves, those from 1.5kw upwards had bricks pulled out, and the housing itself with heaters is light. The smaller ones, on the other hand, were terrible, did not decompose and were very heavy. However, these were not modern furnaces, but the old ones, so I do not know what it will look like here. It's best to call some Allegro seller and just ask him if the stove is decomposing. Cheers to Cuba

SzokalML · Answer

One salesman says they are not taking them apart, only whole pieces. We'll see how the second. The dynamic features are that they have a magnesite contribution and an insulation. I know that when you buy new ones, they come in pieces. Well, you will have to find out, 140/4 is a real option, I even thought about throwing it on the board and pulling it up / pushing it up the stairs. However, it seems that one vendor is offering stairs as well. one more question - are storage heaters also best placed near the window, for proper air distribution?

am44 · Answer

We place storage stoves against an external wall, preferably under a window, to ensure favorable air circulation. Transporting the stoves on boards is possible, but you need two boards 25-32mm, the length of the stairs, it can be problematic. Once upon a time, a long time ago, I used to take a cast-iron cauldron to the first floor in a dairy cart. Two people went without getting out of breath.

SzokalML · Answer

It turned out that the sellers have a cart with which they carry these stoves up the stairs, it goes slowly but it can handle two people. We'll see how in practice. Is there a shelf above the stove? - like shelves / window sills under traditional radiators?

SzokalML · Answer

I did not consider it, but a friend who had just rented an apartment in Krakow mentioned something that the owner intended to heat the apartment. Of course, this is a total absurdity, because even if it was 2x cheaper, the necessary ventilation compensates for the costs. Of course, the installation will be entrusted to an electrician who will make a three-phase connection. I am not closing the topic yet, I will share the costs and impressions as the stoves come and start working. Thanks for the answers.

SzokalML · Answer

I refresh the topic. I bought 2 dynamic accumulation furnaces (used) from a company from Western Poland, Transport problem - none of them came to me with the furnaces in parts, and they were assembled on the spot. Before connecting, a new fuse switchboard was made - the old one was a strange thing with padded ceramic fuses from the Polish People's Republic. Ovens connected with a 5x2.5 mm cable, three-phase, 2 x 3 kw. Furnaces by eye - several years old, Stiebel Eltron weight 168 kg / pc (a lot - most 3 kW furnaces have bricks for 120-140 kg). Cost with transport and delivery - PLN 2400. Temperature distribution / heating - great. Even in the current frosts of -10-15 degrees Celsius, there is no problem with maintaining the temperature of 20 degrees around the clock (there is no temperature fluctuation between day and night due to loading the stove). The furnaces are charged to roughly 2/3 of their power, so there is more. Here is an important advice to everyone. One should be careful with the power demand calculated by sellers, which is supplied with a large margin. Depending on the company, I was offered stoves with a capacity of 8 to 12 kW - for which I would spend more money and would have to increase the power allocation in the power plant. As you can see, I have 6 kw and that is enough. Heat dissipation through the housing - not as the manufacturers say 10%, I would say about 20-30%. Costs: with such frosts as today, with periodic thaws, it will be about PLN 300 / month. So quite OK - anyway, I had no choice but how much would I pay for gas heating? PLN 50-80 less per month? I heat the bathroom when I use it with a portable ceramic, unheated hall. apartment 60 m2, height 3.75, first floor - a few posts above. Electricians doing the switchboard also left me an old tiled stove connected, just in case, but I do not use it (because there is no need for it).

am44 · Answer

For comparison, I give my consumption. Apartment 52 m2, h = 2.70, ceiling to the attic insulated with only 6 cm of polystyrene. Gas heating + 80 l boiler (1 person). From 01/12 to 19/12 to pay 320 PLN. So the costs at my colleague's are quite decent.

Options for Electric Heating in a 60 m2, 1st Floor Tenement Apartment with 12 kW Power

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