Comparing Efficiency and Cost: Electric Boiler (1500W, 60L) vs. Gas Water Heater

Question

Hello and welcome, I have been struggling with a very big problem of electricity consumption recently. My bills for 2 months for electricity alone are PLN 450-470. It is a 2-room apartment with a separate bathroom and kitchen .. A family of three. I think, or rather I am convinced, that the...

temprawg · Answer

personally, after experiences with instantaneous water heaters, I am of the opinion that this is the best solution. the water heats up only when you take it in (or when it flows through it) except that definitely by force, i.e. 400 v boiler is a waste of time, money and energy, and can be used as an EXTRA if you have a furnace heating but not as your primary hot water source. As for the cost. A family of 4 in a slow-standing house from the 1950s, 3 TV sets, 1 of which is playing non-stop (an older person), a computer, a dishwasher, a washing machine and generally, and monthly costs at the level of PLN 190-230, so it is really not much and you turn on the tap and you have a warm one water. in my opinion, the flow-through force plugged into the water system at the very beginning for the whole house, or the bathroom, and a small one for the kitchen, 230v (in the end you will not drip in the sink ) Added after 1 [minutes]: with gas, I am personally not convinced because people start to complain about gas, all in all clean and nice, but the costs can be considerable and probably even comparable to electricity now Please correct any spelling mistakes mod - mirrzo

mirrzo · Answer

Give up Vaillant. Termet gives much more for much less. Look at the Allegro: Termet G19-02 elektronik. It comes with a 3-year warranty. Later on lower prices for parts.

wnoto · Answer

A very nice case. We will try to help. A few follow-up questions to get started. 1. What is your electricity tariff? 2. How do you use hot water: shower, bath ... 3. How hot water is handled in the kitchen, sink We also have to make sure that this consumption results from the operation of the boiler. Do you or someone of your friends have access to the so-called Wattmeter (?) - a device electricity consumption meter - such for a socket? He would help us a lot. Recently, there were such in Lidl for 45 zlotys. Generally, the boiler is small. What is the temperature set on it? Is there room for a larger or even extra one?

awu · Answer

I support the idea of electricity. The bills are really big, with me for 5 people (2 + 3), the bill for 2 months does not exceed PLN 350 in the summer, and I have everything for electricity: water, kitchen. I use a 100l - 1500W boiler connected to central heating, so in winter I have cheaper hot water. I would suggest checking the measuring system - the meter, whether it works properly (the load with the radiator without the 1000W thermostat for 1 h and the counter changes by 1kWh, because a lot depends on the mains voltage).

Zbigniew Rusek · Answer

Electricity heating of water is always expensive !!! If there is no three-phase power supply (the so-called power), then only the capacity (boiler) is considered, and the heating of the water tank always takes some time (flow, to provide e.g. running water to fill the bathtub, it would have to have enormous power, and not always the installation electric is adapted to this). It is best to give a gas stove, such as Junkers. when buying, consider how much hot water you need. If you do not have a large bathtub (only a small one or a shower), the 19.2kW one is enough, but if you have a very large bathtub, it is better to choose a larger one (e.g. 23.4kW) - it will be more expensive, but will give a greater flow of hot water (you can fill the bathtub faster). These electricity bills are really high. I have an average monthly electricity consumption in winter of 120kWh (but hot water in the bathroom for gas), but in summer it is often around 360kWh (I have 2 portable air conditioners, but when it is hot for a long time in a row, it turns out to be too weak especially that I live on the 6th floor, which causes sunlight and heating up the apartment). In winter, I have a low power consumption because I have all energy-saving bulbs (otherwise a lot of electricity would go to the light). The monthly consumption of gas is generally 20-25 m3.

wnoto · Answer

That's true. But what does expensive mean? The more that gas can be even more expensive? And he still has to invest a lot ... I estimate that over 3k is nothing. I live in a house (2 people) and I consume about 400 kWh of electricity per month. What does this prove? Nothing :) When he will present how he uses water, we will come up with something.

temprawg · Answer

I just meant that to use hot water for a bathtub, the repair is good, using a flow heater, of course, by force (400V) and it would be good if there was a constant water pressure. I have been using such a heater for 5 years and only once under the warranty there was a problem with the heater but they repaired it under the warranty and on the other hand there were terrible fluctuations in water pressure Please correct any spelling mistakes mod - mirrzo

berga · Answer

Hello. In fact, for this flat, the bills are high, it turns out that the annual fee is over PLN 2500, i.e. energy consumption - over 5000kWh / year. You can easily figure out whether the boiler really is the biggest energy gobber. Dividing 5000kWh / 365 days - it comes out about 14kWh / day. To check the actual energy consumption, start systematically writing down the meter reading, every day at the same time. After 2-3 days you will already know if it is really 14 or only 10 kWh / day. And on the fourth day, plan a breakdown and turn off the boiler, heat the necessary hot water on the gas stove. On the fifth day you will already know more or less how much the boiler is using. If the boiler uses approx. 5 kWh / day, then after its disposal, your bills will drop by approx. PLN 150/2 months, and you will pay a little more than once for gas, i.e. approx. PLN 180/4 months. Heating water with gas is much cheaper. Before choosing a gas thermostat, you must agree with the chimney sweep a safe method of flue gas discharge. Regards.

Najkon · Answer

Sorry to write back after such a long time. Unfortunately, I was on a business trip outside the city where I live for a month. And then, irritated by the actions of the former boss, I had to change my job, which was reflected in the decline in computer use. :) So let's start from the beginning: So: Ad. 1. Day and Night Tariff G11 Ad. 2nd shower Ad. 3. Also by boiler, but it is used only for washing dishes, which happens once every two or three days a week (we don't get dirty) There was one acquaintance with just such a device, but unfortunately he left Gramanice. And my plan fell into disrepair. I was thinking about buying a wattmeter, but I need to get some money. Apparently only ~ 45 zlotys, but this is already a penny. The boiler has a capacity of 60L, of which its power is 1500W. Hanging the other is not an option. There is no room for him. The larger one will also fall off, it will interfere with the free use of the bathroom. Temperature in degrees I will not say, because the adjustment is done with a knob with dashes. Nevertheless, the water is not that hot. Fifty fifty. Systematically I try to turn the knob and look at the bill if something changes. As if I presented it as a percentage, the dashes from 0 to 100% are set to about 40-50%. and the water is just right. Added after 7 [minutes]: And you see. It amazes me in all this. We have a 2 + 1 system. We also have a stove for electricity (lower part - oven), which is only used on holidays - baking a cake, or similar. We noticed that when using the oven, the bills increase by about PLN 30 - PLN 40. Now this month, the bill for the previous two months came, where we practically did not use the oven (once a month) in the amount of PLN 470. The first move I made regarding the meter was I called the electricians from enei to check it - they only confirmed that it was operational. And to check for yourself by charging it as you suggest. I do not have such miracles as a heater of such power :) Added after 10 [minutes]: Epic! I will check this way. We will see what the results will be. I'll start tomorrow.

agiles · Answer

according to my calculations gas (4 people) PLN 110 per month container 120L

kabee84 · Answer

Remember that there is a fixed transmission fee in this bill, which you pay whether you use gas or not. The real bill for just heating the water is lower. When it comes to comparing gas to electricity, as the previous speakers wrote - gas will come out cheaper. The return of the money invested will come sooner or later

agiles · Answer

It's a fact However, gas is the cheapest, whether it is central heating or hot water www ...

wnoto · Answer

... to heat 1l of water by 1 degree you need about 1.16Wh 28C - delta of the required temperature 6l / min shower capacity. 6 min - average shower time 1.16 Wh * 28C * 6 liters * 18 min (for 3 people) = 3.507 kWh per day Annually, assuming once a day is 365 * 3,507 kWh = 1280 kWh for G11 (Wrocław IQ2010) 1280 *, 509 = PLN 651 for G12w (Wrocław IQ2010) 2nd tariff 1280 *, 265 = PLN 339 Gas W2 (Wrocław August 2010) - I take into account efficiency, etc., at the level of 90% This gives the requirement of 1280 / 0.9 / 10 (kWh / m3) = 142 m3 Taking into account the fixed and variable fees, I get the cost of 1 kWh of gas at the level of PLN 0.419 / kWh W-2 gas annually, 419 * 1422 = 595 PLN. Annually, electricity heating in the normal tariff is about PLN 65 more expensive. By using the second tariff, we can heat much cheaper because it is almost 270 cheaper than with gas! Everyone should answer for themselves how expensive heating is The full analysis should take into account the cost of 10 years of service (inspections, service, etc.) and the cost of installation. This even more shows the advantage of the current. Feel free to discuss. If anyone could check these calculations, please do so. Maybe someone will take into account the new prices. PS Prices from the previous year include VAT22%

berga · Answer

Hello. Why is your tendency to inflate gas energy prices and to lower electricity prices? After all, I have already calculated that there is no electricity price below PLN 0.30 / kWh, even at night, and even in Wrocław, see here: And when it comes to gas, I'm curious how and where you get those PLN 0.22 / kWh. Unless it's LPG, not natural gas. Regards.

wnoto · Answer

I provide the data that I have in the sheet when I counted it a few months ago at the then current rates for electricity and gas that I use. Since then, prices have changed a bit. In this example, gas was so expensive because the fixed charges for gas are terribly high and with low gas consumption (and here we have - probably about 140m3 annually), they greatly increase the result. About fixed charges on electricity then i believe that They should not be counted to the price of electricity because we always pay these fees, no matter what we heat. Generally, I don't want to prove that electricity is cheaper every time. The price of operating DHW / CO heating with electricity is comparable to gas and sometimes it is actually cheaper. Each case requires an enumeration. And gas often wins - but probably not in this case. Electricity / gas is not only a price, but also a way of operating and servicing devices. Installation costs are also of considerable importance. I'm just trying to provide information and arguments. The choice is always the investor.

berga · Answer

Because it cannot be proven, and you suggest it to your clients in almost every post. The prices can indeed be comparable at times, but this is not the case here. Note that the author of the topic does not have to pay for the gas connection, because he already has gas, he uses the stove. And because the gas consumption in the stove itself is really low - below PLN 20 / month, which is about 5 m? of gas, so the price of 1kWh for gas cooking is very expensive for him, about 50gr / kWh. And he should be persuaded to use an electric cooker because cooking will be comparable or cheaper in operation. But in this particular case it is only about making a choice: what to heat DHW with? gas or electricity in the daily tariff? If you were faced with an alternative like in this particular case, would you choose electricity? Regards.

Zbigniew Rusek · Answer

Now specifically. I have a new stove (the old PG-6 after 30 years of operation has already failed and the risk was to repair it) Junkers (23.6kW). I monitor gas consumption (gas meter). The father in the bathroom is a hydrofoil (he leaves the bathroom, and the hot water is still pouring - often straight into a rush - and you have to close behind him, which means that he probably uses up almost the entire bathtub of hot water every day), I use little hot water, my mother also moderately. On 20 days of March, gas consumption was less than 10 m3 (i.e. 15 m3 per month). You have to remember that there is also a cooker, but it is used very sparingly (heating up meals from the canteen, cooking sagan several times a day, sometimes soup). That's gas consumption, that's total (stove and stove). I guess it's clear that gas is much more economical than electricity. What are these weird tariffs in the post above? 1 m3 of gas does not cost 4 zlotys at all (it costs about 2.50 zlotys), while 1 kWh of electricity costs more than 50 groszy. (about 60 gr.).

wnoto · Answer

I like the last question very much. Yes, I would choose the current. It is more predictable and less unreliable than gas. It would be more expensive with electricity from the normal tariff (the boiler would solve the case), but there are other arguments that are more important to me. For others, maybe too, but they never really thought about it: 1. gas in the apartment - risk, pipes 2. Inspections of the chimney, furnace (each post is about looking for a good service technician) 3. Declining efficiency of the device 4. Lower hot water comfort (temperature jumps) 5. Cheap atmosphere to cool the bathroom or kitchen I wrote from my head and probably did not take into account everything that came to my mind at the moment. The fact that my statements can be seen in every post ... is a myth This can be seen in every post that talks about low heat demand. Then the current is worth taking into account. But what are you worried about - a conscious customer is a better customer! If he chooses gas, he will only be able to blame himself. The other way is the same. Added after 8 [minutes]: Gas costs so much because of the fixed fees. You probably, with your very low consumption, get caught up in the W-1 tariff, where the fees are probably lower (I have never analyzed it). I was counting on the W-2 tariff where the fixed fees are PLN 20 net / month, in-3 is PLN 53 net / month. Taking this into account, there are such large fees. Electricity is PLN 0.53 in the normal tariff and PLN 30 / 61.8 in the G-12 tariff (Wrocław IQ 2011). How much did you pay for the stove, how much for the installation, how much for inspections and services. How much did you pay for repairs to the stove. When all this is added, interesting numbers come out. It once happened to me that the company offered to sell computer gear for ridiculously low money. It turned out after calculations that they would take it with interest within 5 years of servicing. We should also remember that the government is currently regulating the gas price. It lowers it for individual customers at the expense of corporate customers. This may change. However, the recent increases were more strongly affected by cheap electricity from the second tariff. Added after 11 [minutes]: Zbigniew, how would you feel if you had to admit that you made a mistake with replacing the stove. The ambition of many people would not allow it and ... the circle around gas closes.

stasiu99 · Answer

Yes, and definitely. You don't even have anything to think about, buddy. It is exactly as you think, the instantaneous water heater is by definition more economical than the boiler, let alone the gas flow than the electric boiler. This is already an abyss. Don't get fooled by some of the arguments in favor of the current presented above (damn it knows for what purpose). Electricity to heat anything is used by people who have no other choice or have such a whim and can afford it. In any case, electricity will cost you more. It is not even worth counting and wondering. However, if you are not willing to take a word for it, calculate it yourself in a very simple way. As far as hot water is concerned, basically only 2 pieces of information are needed. How much energy do you use to heat the water now (i.e. how much energy this boiler uses) and how much of this hot water you use in liters. This is needed to calculate the cost difference between electricity and gas for water heating. In the full analysis, first of all, reliable data should be used that have coverage in reality and in the actual state. The mere reference to the data from August 2010, when calculating the costs in March 2011, from the very beginning undermines the reliability of the presented pseudo-analysis, even if incomplete. You only make fun of your arguments about cheaper electricity and piss people off, nothing more. And, of course, you mess with ignorant people's heads, which is probably the worst, because imagine that not everyone can answer certain things on their own, among other things, they ask for advice on the forum. Only not always such people counting on reliable help take into account the fact that such topics come as vultures, pseudo-experts who have an undefined purpose in manipulating and misleading. Show you now that you are manipulating the numbers and you are misleading. Since I believe you are doing this on purpose, I will not fail to call it trolling. The two fundamental errors that have decisive influence on the result of this 1280 kWh pseudo-analysis are: -lowering the amount of heated water (108 liters of hot water for 3 people a day is an understated amount, the more that hot water is not used only for showers) - lowering the temperature of cold water (by 28 degrees the water is heated in summer, when the cold is 20 degrees. However, when real winter comes, the water from the water supply has a much lower temperature) These two factors have a decisive influence on the energy consumption for heating the water. And the greater the water consumption and the lower the temperature. from which you need to heat it, the more energy you need to use. Thus, the cost difference between gas and electricity increases significantly in favor of cheaper gas. Not the other way around. The greater the consumption, the greater the difference. And, of course, one should also mention the overstatement of gas costs. Bending is acceptable, it is known, but slight. However, PLN 0.42 per kWh of gas is already a gigantic inflection, one could say more bluntly - an inflection of the pile. But even let it be and let us accept these erroneous and misleading assumptions and let the annual consumption for a 3-person range be 1280kWh. For 1280kWh in Wrocław, in the G-11 tariff you have to pay PLN 691 (PLN 0.54 / kWh), in the G-12 tariff you have to pay PLN 358 (PLN 0.28 / kWh), but on the condition that the boiler draws all electricity in these cheaper 10 hours. On the other hand, for the production of the same amount of energy from high-methane natural gas, also in Wrocław, in the W-2 tariff you have to pay PLN 245 (1 m3 of gas is PLN 1.84, and as reported by PGNiG, the combustion heat value of 1 m3 of such gas is 39.5MJ, but no less Therefore, assuming the lowest value of 1280kWh, it is 121 m3 of gas. Taking into account the efficiency reduction by 10%, the consumption is 133 m3). The results seem to be a little different. In this case, when comparing costs, it does not make sense to take into account, exactly like that, because gas (the stove works with gas) and electricity (other receivers) are not used only for domestic hot water, so the user bears these costs anyway. But even if the differences in electricity and gas subscriptions were taken into account (W-2 costs about PLN 10 more than G-12), the costs would be comparable. But this is the most optimistic scenario for the use of electricity. Only, unfortunately, the truth is that such a scenario only happens in fairy tales, and has little to do with reality. This is because: First of all, the G-12 tariff is characterized by the fact that energy is cheaper in it, but only 10h / day. The remaining 14 hours / day is more expensive than in the G-11 tariff. You do not deign to inform you about this something by some strange coincidence ... I wonder why ... And this is decisive, especially when using an appliance such as an electric boiler. Because imagine people use hot water when they need it, not at night and for 2 hours. in the afternoon. And in fact, such a boiler (especially with a smaller capacity and with increased water consumption) consumes more electricity from the more expensive tariff than from the cheaper one. But even assuming that this energy use by the boiler is evenly distributed throughout the day, it still costs much more on electricity. 14 hours is 58% of the day, and 10 hours is 42% of the day. In other words, of these 1280 kWh, the boiler uses energy in 58% from the more expensive tariff, and only 42% in the cheaper, night tariff. This means that the annual costs are as follows: 742kWh at 0.63 PLN plus 538kWh at 0.28 PLN, which gives a total of 468 + 150 = 618 PLN. What does it mean? Well, these costs are comparable to the G-11 tariff, and they are almost twice as high as the costs only in the night tariff. But the most important thing is that the cost of gas is almost 2.5 times higher (PLN 618 and PLN 245). However, taking into account the actual conditions, that the boiler uses more electricity in the daily tariff (because people use more water during the day), the difference between electricity and gas is even higher. Additionally, boiler losses should be taken into account. Oddly enough, you don't mention it either. About the efficiency of the gas heater, it is 90%, but not about the boiler losses. The flow heater heats only as much water as is needed at the moment, and the boiler, unfortunately, does not. So it generates losses. Secondly, the G-12 tariff means that the overall cost of energy consumed by devices operating in the daily tariff (I emphasize, more expensive than G-11) is increasing. This is because most electrical appliances are used during these more expensive hours. I am not mentioning the haunted ones, who use electricity only at certain times of the cheaper tariff, limiting the comfort of their home life quite strongly. Thus, having regard to all of the above, the cost difference in heating the water between an electric boiler and a gas-fired flow-through heater is a gulf, in favor of gas. And no arguments on this can change that. The only thing that can change that is to narrow the difference in energy costs. It is clear that what you write about, i.e. the superiority of electricity over gas, even in some cases, has nothing to do with reality. Gas will always be cheaper than electricity for a simple reason, because heat energy obtained from gas is much cheaper than that obtained from electricity. End and period. So considering it from a cost standpoint is basically pointless. This can be considered for other reasons, but not for the cost. Also, considering this from the point of view of security is not entirely legitimate, because security is a relative matter. Just as a gas appliance can be dangerous, so can an electric appliance. Not much less than carbon monoxide poisoning, you hear about fires caused by a failure of the electrical system. just caused by electric heating devices with increased power consumption. The argument about higher costs of installation, servicing, operation or purchase of gas appliances, in particular instantaneous domestic hot water heaters, is also unfounded. The costs are higher it is true, but firstly not much higher, and secondly, the gains from using gas very quickly outweigh this difference in cost. Such junkers are cheap to buy, simple in construction and work without any problems after several dozen, and often even several dozen years, which, unfortunately, is not often true in the case of electric devices.

wnoto · Answer

I will try to respond to your comments one by one. But I will not try to offend you. I suggest you get your own numbers yourself and put them into the formula, changing the assumptions (if you think so) and calculate yourself. I only showed the template. Based on the information obtained, everyone makes their own decisions. The same arguments were used by people to refute arguments, for example, about heat pumps. After a few years, some of them converted. Why are you dissuading him from converting. After all, as you write, it is quite easy to verify. Based on your information and mine, changing assumptions I don't know why you insult me so. You have written your arguments, and most people can understand both of us and draw conclusions. It's not true that people are stupid. They don't always know about everything. I am not saying that it is always electricity. I suggest you calculate this and reflect on the results. How much should then be entered in the formula? It can always be changed and it's good that you asked this question. I count it as total 18 minutes in the shower with a capacity of 6 liters per minute. I assume that the dishes are washed in the dishwasher. Brushing your teeth and shaving I think can be skipped - that's a few liters max! If someone wants to use a bathtub, they enter the appropriate value into the formula. How much do you think the temperature in the water supply changes in summer and in winter? Because in my opinion 2 to 4C. Requests for comments from others - I am writing this from my own observation. I am not saying anything else. I just write it the other way around. The lower the heat demand, the more electricity wins. I counted it like this. Data from 2010. Gas price 1m3: PLN 0.984 net transmission fee PLN 0.449 net Monthly fixed fee (W-2) PLN 20 net; I assumed the annual gas consumption of 140 m3 140 * (0.984 + 0.449) + 12 * 20 = 140 * 1.433 + 240 = 440.62 Include VAT 440.62 * 1.22 = PLN 537 I take into account 91% of the boiler efficiency: PLN 537/91% = PLN 590 I divide by 140 m3 and convert into kWh (the correct values are probably 9.4 to 10 kWh per m3) it is about 0.42 PLN / kWh (590/140) - I do not take into account the lower calorific value of gas (those 9.4) Since that data (9 months ago), the price of gas has not increased much. So you write like this: G11 - PLN 691 G12 - PLN 358 And gas. Here I have a problem because I can't judge what 38MJ means. From what you write it comes out that 1 m3 will be more than 10 kWh (1280/121 = 10.5 kWh) And I take 9.5 kWh per m3. Even taking into account your calculations, we have Gas - 133 m3 * 1.84 = PLN 245 .... + fixed charges, i.e. 12 * 24.6 = 245 + 246! = PLN 491 Is PLN 200 such a big difference (I got less earlier, but it is probably based on this conversion from m3 to kWh) when looking at the installation costs? Anyone knowing their installation costs can say this. Not true. It is possible to live without gas, or without fixed fees. No fixed electricity charges. Fixed service charges for heating with electricity do not increase by 1 grosze. And this is one of the most important assumptions in the valuation. We don't have to pay fixed gas fees! Additionally, for service and inspections. I take it for granted. But you're actually right, I shouldn't have assumed that. I will write it down in the next analyzes. Most often, the shower is used in the morning (right after the cheaper tariff) and in the evening (sometimes also at the cheaper tariff) - if not, the water can become warm in the boiler and be heated at a cheaper tariff. That's why there are regulators for a dozen or so zlotys. The boiler should be selected to enable this. A gas stove also has its own requirements and it does not always comfortably operate us. If you assume so, it means that you do not know what the cheap tariff is for. If there is a cheap tariff, you have to use it and move some devices a little. Otherwise, it is better not to change it. This is what a boiler is for. It is better to heat flow through. Strange deliberation. Ask those who took the 2nd tariff. Why did they take it and how many percent of electricity do they use in the second tariff? Yes, it does. About 1-2 C a day. But I did not take into account the loss of time and water caused by escaping water in the shower when it is necessary to stabilize the water temperature before taking a shower (hot flashes etc). A more stable heat flow of water flows from the boiler. The washing machine - the regulator allows you to set the washing automatically at a cheaper tariff Dryer - the regulator allows you to set the washing automatically at a cheaper tariff Dishwasher - the regulator allows you to set automatic washing at a cheaper tariff Outdoor lighting - most of the cost (but more at home) Iron - there is a problem with that. But with the weeekend tariff, you can iron on Saturday - where electricity is cheap - but this can affect the comfort. It does not change the comfort of operation. It even makes it easier because the devices work, for example, when we are not at home. You just need a little willingness. And reducing its consumption is not it? One question. Do you really think that in any case, if there is natural gas in the premises, it is not worth heating with electricity? Does the boiler (1.5-2 kW) mean increased power consumption? The iron takes more of it (

stasiu99 · Answer

Everyone uses the arguments they want, but since I think yours make people foolish, I wrote this. It has nothing to do with offending anyone as you think. If you write that electric heating is cheaper and more expensive, then what else can you call it if you don't make fun of yourself. Additionally, your overproduction of one-hoof posts annoys normal minded people. Be aware of it. How many times can you write that electricity is cheaper than gas, if it is not. You prove that electricity is cheaper, and at the end of the proof you get the result, however, that it is more expensive. What are you still saying that it is cheaper? Do you understand any of this? I do and I just wrote it to you in the previous post. Wherever I discourage him from converting, you can point it out to my nice friend. He stands like an ox, written for him to count himself ... But it is similar to this cost, cheaper, but still more expensive, and at the same time cheaper ... 108 liters for 3 people is definitely not enough. I have to heat about 200 liters for two to maintain a decent standard of civilization. Or in other words, how much warm water do you use and how many people is it? We will compare the results Well, even if 2 to 4, why didn't you include it in your calculations? This one And the second is that when you heat up the cold water by these 28 degrees or even 32 degrees in winter, you'll be amazed when you feel comfortable in it. Unless you are compiling at 35 degrees, maybe. Have you never measured the temperature of water in winter? So, on what basis do you assume that it is 20 degrees? Maybe you have it, but in most cases it drops well below 10 degrees, unless it gets warm somewhere along the way. Well, exactly like that. If the demand for heat is 0, the cost of heating with electricity will be the same as with gas, ie 0. The electricity will then win to the maximum, it will be the undisputed winner. Sounds ridiculous? No less than what you wrote above. It is probably obvious that when the demand for energy decreases, the difference in the costs of using individual types of energy decreases. Only that it does not mean savings in terms of the type of fuel, but due to the lower demand for a given fuel, read the energy obtained from it. In other words, no electricity shows its savings, but the difference in costs decreases. And there is no merit in it, neither electricity nor gas. In fact, this cost difference does not always have to be obviously reduced. There may be cases where, despite a significant reduction in heat demand, the difference in costs decreases more slowly or not at all. It is a question of efficiency, mainly the reduced efficiency of the gas installation. It may happen that as a result of reducing the demand for heat, the total efficiency of the gas installation will increase, thus the difference in costs between electricity and gas may decrease less. If you did not count it, hot water heating for a family of 3 gas flows and electricity is an abyss ... Of course, provided that you count it reliably, and I have a lot of doubts about it, unfortunately. 38MJ is the minimum value of the gross calorific value for 1 m3 of high-methane gas that can be sold by PGNiG. You should know about it if you comment on this. So 1 m3 of gas is not less than 10.56 kWh. G11, electricity, PLN 691 - that's right But already W-2, gas - is not correct. There are no grounds for counting fixed fees, secondly, the boiler generates losses. There is a difference of 500 degrees on the bide. In addition, in these calculations you do not take into account the greater water consumption than 108 liters per day, and the greater energy demand in winter to heat the water. Summing up, there is no need to count the differences are very big. What fixed fees. What do you mean. Man has a gas stove, you have a problem to figure it out. If, however, you want to completely eliminate gas, you have to put an electric stove on it, first of all. Secondly, you have to calculate the higher electricity consumption for cooking in your calculations. Read it carefully, the guest pays 40 ten a month for the electric oven alone. Unless you give him induction, the fees will be lower, but he'll break in a moment. No ineters. Buddy, if you did not count it, it will never be yours. Unless you count like 2 + 2 = 5, and you can see that you have a tendency to do this. Well, the man is thinking about a new boiler and you persuade him to do so. Do you read these posts even a little?As for the second tariff, I do not need to talk to anyone to know that this is an offer for people who use electricity mainly at night, and also the majority of it in the entire amount of consumption. Well, if it helps you with comfort, I congratulate you very much, and if you stay at home only from 10 pm to 7 pm, I feel sorry for you. Yeap, it's exactly as you write. Write to the man that he can safely install an electric boiler and his bills will drop. Also, do not forget to write to him that there is only one small, tiny condition for it to be profitable for him. He needs to reduce the consumption of hot water, read - stop washing. When it comes to the cost of energy and its conversion into heat, nothing. And we are talking about costs here. The matter can of course be considered differently, from a different point of view, but not from the cost of producing heat. If someone uses the device, e.g. sporadically several times a year, or washing his hands in warm water once a year, or something similar, then it is known that it is better to buy a small electric thermostat, because the purchase of a junker may not be returned to him for the rest of his life . However, if it is a permanent use by a normal person or a normal family and with normal water consumption (they do not wash themselves in drops like sparrows), then heating this water with electricity will never be more effective than heating with gas. I have read it and I am aware of it, but you should read to what installation high-power electrical devices are connected, what wire diameters, with what protections, etc. This is not an argument. For one junkers it works without problems for a dozen or several dozen years, and for another less than a year, and he is damned. For various reasons. The same as in one case of high-power electrical devices, they operate safely for many years, and in another, the cottage goes with smoke when it turns up the power in greater frosts, because there is a short circuit in the installation, or the wires are broken.

mirrzo · Answer

The water temperature in winter is about 4 ° C Enter how much hot water is consumed by a person per day. Then count it by the number of people and put the boiler on electricity. Each time you turn on the hot water tap, for example to wash a glass, the heater is turned on and the whole thing is heated up. The boiler's heat losses are always over 5 C a day. Coming back to the boiler. You heat the 300 liters of water for 4 residents at night. You get up in the morning, turn off the power to save. You all wash, maybe a shower as well. Warm water is used in the amount of about 100-150 liters. That is half. You go out. The machine heats up about half of what you used up in 2 hours cheaper. Evening comes, the children before going to bed, wash themselves in warm water, and you wait until about 3-4 am for the water to warm up to a tolerable temperature. But why wait so long? You go to sleep and wash up with your wife in the morning. Then the water is warm again. In short, the cycle turns around. Therefore, you use cheaper tariffs to heat water at night and you will not use it, because when. When it is needed, you use expensive electricity to heat it. Or maybe take a shower at work ... Where are the logic and comfort of life here? When this cheaper tariff was created, it was said that it was for the hosts, so that they could prepare food for the animals with cheaper electricity. Today, there are not many areas of life in which the cheaper one would be effectively used.

wnoto · Answer

Buddy, you avoid numbers a lot. Why ? It will be easier for others to compare and calculate. You write a lot about clichéd statements and do not allow any other thinking. And of course you mess in the minds of unaware people, which is probably the worst, because imagine that not everyone can answer certain things on their own, among other things, they ask for advice on the forum - based on this quote, I think that you do not want to make people count for themselves. Do you think they can't do it? If they can, they are able to draw conclusions themselves. Regarding the water temperature in the water supply. Your data is intriguing - but not very specific. I believe that regardless of the season, the water in the water supply has a temperature of 6C to 10C. Taking into account the average of 8C, we have + 28C which gives us the optimal 36C. The thread is about a shower, not a bath. (a higher temperature is required for bathing). 108 l of water is, as I wrote, 18 minutes of showering a day for 3 people (6 minutes per person). It is not too much, but it is enough. Environmental protection programs indicate that, for example, during soaping, water does not have to flow and .. it works - but not many people know about it and even less use it. Pity Similarly, when brushing your teeth or shaving (if you had a septic tank, it would be easier for you to understand). If you question my calculations why don't you present yours? I even ask you for it. Then it will be easier for us to discuss and it will be easier for others to check us. It is easier to refer to numbers than to the argument that something is better or that I am right or everyone knows it. The important thing is how many kWh are in m3 of gas. And so I write what I know (maybe wrong) on the Forum so that someone can correct it. I am not writing this in bad faith. Nobody had pointed it out to me before. I went where you pointed and found: ( 1.E-type high-methane natural gas (formerly GZ-50): * heat of combustion - not less than 34.0 MJ / m3 1) The nominal value of the gross calorific value is specified in the Tariff for Gas Fuels. * calorific value - not less than 31.0 MJ / m3 1) * The heat of gas combustion is the amount of heat released when 1 m3 of gas is completely burned. The unit of the heat of combustion of gas is MJ / m3 of gas under normal conditions, i.e. at a pressure of 101.3 kPa and a temperature of 25oC. ** The calorific value corresponds to the amount of heat released during the combustion of 1 m3 of gas, when the water contained in the combustion products is in the form of steam (the calorific value is lower than the heat of combustion by the amount of the heat of condensation of water vapor). I am not a specialist, but you should probably use 31 MJ / m3 for our calculations. So with 1 m3 we have 8.6 kWh with 100% boiler efficiency. If I have misinterpreted something, please let me know. THIS IS IMPORTANT ! The issue of fixed fees. If it has a stove, it doesn't mean it has to be. In my opinion, the system is simple, either just gas for hot water and a stove or electricity. The mixed solution is not optimal (it is the worst). By abandoning the gas stove, gas charges will drop to zero. By resigning from the boiler, the fixed charges for electricity will be at the same level. Of course, the costs of buying a new cooker and electric kettle must be added to the investment on the electricity side. Regarding the boiler. Your quote However, taking into account the actual conditions that the boiler uses more electricity in the daily tariff (because people use more water during the day), the difference between electricity and gas is even higher.I was referring to the fact that if someone has a boiler and uses expensive water to heat it in it ... it means that it is bullshit and screwed up either at the design stage or in operation. To sum up. Taking into account the overall costs of operation, installation and maintenance of devices, it turns out that heating water with electricity can be more effective (cheaper) than with gas. The comparison of gas and electricity alone is part of the whole. For each of us, there is a sum of money spent on water in 10 years. PS And if the author of the thread bought an air heat pump for DHW heating, would it be operationally cheaper or more expensive than gas? Added after 55 [minutes]: Mirrzo on this page there is information about 10C Then let's find out what the average annual temperature is. This will be the basis for calculations. Each unscrewing does not switch the boiler on. He should only warm up during cheap hours. This is the idea behind the cheap tariff. On the Allegro I took the first Ariston 80 l boiler - loss per day 1.22 kWh if we maintain the temperature of 60C (you can have cooler water, e.g. 45C, less scale is produced.) So there will be a lot less loss. Mirrzo now also buys cheap electricity in the West when the power plant determines that it is cheap - these are different hours during the day. Devices for handling this novelty are more expensive but people are willing to go for it - because it is also ecology. So don't bother saying that it's only for hosts in the second tariff. The second tariff is for those who can use it.Regarding the boiler. 300l for a family of 4? Disputes. Otherwise. Let's assume that the shower water is 36C. We have 45C in the boiler. 120l boiler 4 people in the morning is about 12 - 16 minutes including showering. (everyone rushes to work). * 6 liters per minute gives us 72 to 100 liters of water at a temperature of 36 C - so it did not empty the entire boiler. (of course you can give a larger boiler) The discussed Ariston 1.8kW boiler (2kW would be better) heats 80 l of water by 45 C in 147 minutes. During these 2 hours (120 minutes), it will heat the water to full 45C (taking into account that not all the water left in the morning, medium-warm water flows from the water supply (in the apartment we are talking about here, that's for sure). So from 4 p.m. we have a whole hot water tank. The evening shower, depending on the family, can be the same as in the morning or in installments - some people go to bed a lot after 22:00, which is again cheaper tariff. But this whole story shows how to use 100% cheap electricity. From individual settings and lifestyle, achieving this is not much of a challenge. Or maybe it is enough to use this tariff for only 90%. This will improve comfort and not increase the bill much. Or maybe 80%? It is usually an individual matter. Oh, all the power-offs and inclusions you write about, Mirrzo can be done (and must be) with an ordinary time programmer for PLN 15 from OBI. Lun for 28 electronic. In most threads, when there is a question about heating, boiler brands appear immediately. Hardly anyone asks about house conditions, previous bills. PS I have a friend who owns a tenement house. Gas, he said, will never let tenants inside. For someone to blow up my hut, he says. If you had such a tenement house for 10 apartments, would you also make single heaters? As the owners of the tenement house? Added after 3 [minutes]: Time to sleep a short shower and to express

rupert32 · Answer

I have a boiler 80 and I agree with what mirrzo writes, in the case of a dual-tariff meter, you can possibly save on cooking for pigs, but the water needs to be reheated outside the tariff, I have a question about the cost analysis between the dual-tariff meter and one tariff. You can turn on washing machines and dishwashers at night, but I know from experience that it can be different hehe explain it to my wife

am44 · Answer

I will provide the results of my own measurements. Shower 25 liters (multiple readings from the water meter), temperature 35-37 degrees. ?? (by feeling). Bath in a 100-150 liter tub (depending on the time and number of refills), temp. much higher than when showering ???. I have a Galmet-Combo 80l boiler with a 1.4 kWh heater and a coil. The heater is used in the 2nd tariff. It is enough for one person. If my daughter visits me, the water consumption increases threefold and it is not enough. Even on tariff 1, it cannot keep up with heating. Yesterday evening, I measured the temperature of cold water. It came out about 7 degrees. Previously, it must have been similar, because the temperature of the ground in winter, at the depth of laying water supply lines, is 5-8 degrees.

stasiu99 · Answer

I tell you once again that you write information that misleads people. The DHW standard is: The amount of hot water per person 50-100l Temp. DHW 45 degrees For calculations, we will not use a minimum of 50, but e.g. 60 liters per person, in order to be at least a bit objective, i.e. not to treat the family as dirty people or ecologists, as he called it. Note that it takes water consumption closer to the minimum, that is 60l, and not closer to the maximum, that is in favor of electricity. Temp. Mains water is generally as follows: a) 4 months coldest (120 days) - 5 degrees C. b) 4 transition months (122 days) - 10 degrees C. c) 4 months the warmest (123 days) - let it be 20 degrees C, but in fact the water in the water supply system in summer is not 20 degrees, only less. Ad.a Energy consumption for heating 180 liters of water from 5 to 45 degrees is 8.38 kWh Which gives 1005.60 kWh for 120 days Ad.b Energy consumption for heating 180 liters of water from 10 degrees to 45 degrees is 7.33 kWh Which is 894.26 kWh for 122 days Ad.c Energy consumption for heating 180 liters of water from 20 degrees to 45 degrees is 5.24 kWh Which for 123 days is 644.52 kWh The total energy used throughout the year for heating hot water is 2544.38 kWh Costs for electricity: -the cost for the G-11 tariff is 2544.38 x 0.54 PLN = 1373.97 PLN -the cost for the G-12 tariff in the case of using the boiler only in the night tariff is 2544.38 x 0.28 = PLN 712.43 -the cost for the G-12 tariff in the case of using the boiler humanly, i.e. 14 hours in the day tariff and 10 hours in the night tariff is [(42% of 2544.38) x PLN 0.28] + [(58% of 2544, 38) x 0.63 PLN] = 299.22 + 929.72 = 1228.94 PLN Costs for gas: -the cost for the W-2 tariff is [(2544.38 / 10.55) + 10%] x 1.79 PLN = 474.87 PLN -the cost for the W-1 tariff is [(2544.38 / 10.55) + 10%] x 1.88 PLN = 498.75 PLN The gross calorific value of gas is based on the tariff, not some information material. Have you ever looked at the tariff? And it is this value that should be taken into account in the cost analysis. Not less than 38 MJ per m3, which gives 10.55 kWh per m3. As it is not difficult to notice, the author of the thread gives a 2-month electricity consumption at the level of PLN 450-470. Which gives a monthly energy consumption of 398-416kWh. Price kWh 0.54, I accept the fixed fee 10 PLN. A normal family uses energy at the level of 200kWh per month. This means that the boiler costs 198-216 kWh per month. That is 2376-2592 kWh per year. Note two things: 1.How does this relate to your result of 1280kWh 2. How does this compare to my result? 2544 kWh There is only one conclusion from this. Your result is not close to reality at all, and the hell knows what ... So, assuming 2500kWh for domestic hot water heating, the difference between G-11 and W-1 is (1350-490), i.e. PLN 860 per year, PLN 72 per month. And this is what the man wanted to know. Since he is currently paying PLN 70-80 for 4 months, it means that he uses gas for PLN 25-35, i.e. 13-19 m3. Which means 3-5 m3 per month. So very little. So it has a chance to stay in the W-1 tariff. However, if he switches to W-2, he has to pay extra PLN 160 per year to this tariff. So finally: Water heating in an electric boiler it will be carried out by: -1350 PLN per year on the regular tariff -700 PLN per year only on the night tariff (this is a complete utopia for a normal family of 3, in addition, the cost of using consumer equipment will increase, thus the total cost of electricity)-PLN 1,210 per year in the mixed tariff (this is real, but not always profitable, it all depends on the amount of electricity consumed in the more expensive daily tariff). Heating the water with gas will amount to it: -490 PLN per year in the W-1 tariff (i.e. what it has) -625 PLN (465 + 160) per year in the W-2 tariff (if it does not fit in the W-1) to which he must pay an additional PLN 160 Cost difference: In the most optimistic scenario for electricity, it is PLN 75 in favor of gas (unfortunately this scenario only happens in your fairy tale and this difference does not take into account the increase in energy costs on the daily tariff). In reality, however, it looks like this: 1.The most optimistic scenario for electricity: the G-12 electricity tariff and the W-2 gas tariff - PLN 585 in favor of gas (this scenario also does not take into account the increase in energy costs in the daily tariff) The most pessimistic scenario for electricity, i.e. the G-11 electricity tariff and the W-1 gas tariff, PLN 860 in favor of gas (and this scenario assumes the actual conditions in the plot of the author's apartment) How does this relate to your results? Let me remind you: So, to sum up, you write total nonsense comparing costs. Considerations about turning off the water when soaping, optimal hot water temperature of 36 degrees Celsius, using timers, introducing military regulations when using the bathroom, cesspool, even a heat pump, etc., leave it for another time, now read the first post carefully and try understand him. Since the above calculations were carried out for the example of Wrocław, all of this must be converted to Szczecin. G-11 - the cost of 1kWh is 0.53kWh W-1 - the cost of m3 is PLN 1.92 W-2 - the cost of m3 is PLN 1.78 If you get rid of the boiler, electricity bills will drop by PLN 220 for 2 months, and gas bills will increase for 4 months by: PLN 167 - if the W-1 tariff is maintained PLN 207 (154 for gas + 53 difference in the subscription for the tariff) - in the case of switching to the W-2 tariff

wnoto · Answer

Do you use automation for this boiler, i.e. do you have it set up so that it only consumes electricity at a cheaper tariff? Or is it permanently connected to the electricity? How many people use the boiler? Are you taking a bath or mainly a shower? Added after 1 [minutes]: I will refer to the post by stasia99 later - it requires more time. But thank you for the conversions and for participating in the discussion.

rupert32 · Answer

the boiler is set in the tariff, but the water is also heated outside the tariff, 3 people and only a shower, I note that I do not have gas, only electricity, except for the boiler, dishwasher, washing machine, etc. I will try to find an invoice for consumption in individual tariffs, it will be easier. The last bill is around PLN 400 for 2 months

rupert32 · Answer

I found an invoice, I will try to accurately quote the data: accounting period from 2010/09/22 to 2011/01/18, consumption WT 950 kWh, NT 717 kWh. Is it not better to switch to a single tariff in the case of such consumption?

Comparing Efficiency and Cost: Electric Boiler (1500W, 60L) vs. Gas Water Heater

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