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Is 21 m3 of gas for heating a day a lot?

msciwiarski 40657 36
This content has been translated flag-pl » flag-en View the original version here.
  • #1
    msciwiarski
    Level 9  
    Hello,

    At the outset, I wanted to say hi, because after reading probably all the posts on the issue of economic heating and gas consumption from the municipal gas network, I decided to share my several months of experience and ask about a few things.

    I am the (happy) owner of half of a semi-detached house with an area of about 139m2 plus a 25m2 garage. The cottage is exactly like this: Link

    built to the open state (with a roof without windows) it was at the beginning of 2010, windows were installed at the turn of 2010/2011. From March 2011 to the end of October 2011, finishing took place, i.e. gypsum plaster, installations and screeds lasted until the end of May, from June to the end of October, finishing: coats, bathrooms, wooden floor.
    From 05-10-2011 I was installed a Brotje Energy Top 24 TE stove with a 120L hot water heater. Since then, the stove has been running in order to dry the screeds, because the humidity this summer was huge and the screeds did not want to dry out.

    I have 6 Kermi X Therm panel radiators slightly oversized in terms of the design, because apparently it does not hurt and even helps (I don't know myself, so I didn't discuss) and 2 Enix ladders in bathrooms (60x120cm and 80x120cm). I have underfloor heating in the bathrooms (one about 6 m2, the other about 11 m2), the kitchen about 11 m2, in the vestibule about 7 m2 and in the room behind the garage about 25 m2.

    In the period from October 5, 2011 to November 25, 2011, the stove had a constant water temperature of 55 degrees Celsius and all radiators were connected, except for ladder radiators in the bathrooms. I did not have thermostatic heads installed, so in fact the stove was going "all the time"

    For 51 days, the stove burned me about 460 m3 of gas, which gave me a bill of PLN 966. It seemed a lot to me, so after moving into the apartment, which took place at the end of November 2011, I was optimistic when I connected the Euroster 2026TX controller that I had and installed the thermostatic heads on the radiators.

    I placed the controller in the living room as the coldest room in which we are staying and programmed the controller in the following way:



    in the morning: 4:40 - 6:30 - 21 degrees
    away from home 6:30 - 15:00 - 19.5 degrees
    at home: 15:00 - 23:30 - 21 degrees
    night: 23:30 - 4:40 - 19.5 degrees

    controller operating mode on / off, hysteresis set to 0.5 degrees.

    The differences between the temperatures are within 2 degrees, because from the information I have from experts, I know that this is the optimal lowering of the temperature in the house, so that the stove does not burn any more to raise the temperature to the expected 21, e.g. from 17 degrees.
    I guess 21 degrees is not bourgeois unless I'm wrong :)

    My wife and I were slightly upset when the bill for the period of 2 months (December-January), when the temperatures oscillated between 0 and sometimes +9, came in the amount of PLN 1670 !!! I went to the meter in disbelief, convinced that there must be a mistake somewhere and my face fell when I saw the value of 1414 m3 on the meter !!. In short, in the period when I started to control the furnace in order to reduce costs, when it should work and when not, the furnace burned over 950 m3 of gas !!
    Since then I have started to look at what this combustion looks like .. for a few days I have been trying different configurations (I turn off the controller at all, set a lower temperature on the stove to 55 degrees and control the heads, raise the temperature of the stove and control the controller, etc.) and it failed I have a daily settlement of less than 20 m3 of gas per day.
    I am starting to lose hope that whatever I can do, the service technician has measured everything, the furnace efficiency is 89%, the mixture is perfect, the furnace is operational. Anyway, the gas is not escaping anywhere, so the stove burns it all. I checked how the combustion looks like during operation and in the normal temperature maintenance mode, each stove consumes about 1.2 m3 per hour. Isn't that too much ?? and if so, what is happening with this gas?
    It seems to me logically that the stove turns on, when it needs to heat the cooled water in the system, it needs a lot of gas and a large flame, and to maintain the temperature, the flame should be smaller, and automatically lower gas consumption. It's just like cooking bigos :) at first a large fire and then a tiny one to maintain the temperature :)
    The service technician checked that the stove was regulating the flame, so it seems that everything is fine. Unfortunately, nowhere I could find information about the average and maximum gas combustion by this model of the furnace (they did not include such information in the documentation)

    For sure, the situation is influenced by the fact that I do not have a neighbor yet and that nobody is heating there, but is it that big ??? others blamed the fact that the house is new, underheated, etc .. are you sure ?? Built as I wrote earlier in 2010, it has been standing for some time. I have a thermometer with an air humidity meter and it shows me a value of 28-30% so in my opinion the humidity in the rooms is low ...

    For comparison, a neighbor 2 houses further recently paid just over PLN 800 for two months with three children and a gas kitchen, so much that he has been living there for the third season and has a neighbor.

    So I am asking you for your opinion whether this amount is the norm, maybe some of you have similar experiences and somehow remedied it .. I must be honest that I have now limited myself to controlling the temperature in children's rooms by removing the controller (21 degrees) there and in the living room I am currently 18.5 degrees. We're just freezing :(

    I would be grateful for any suggestions and sorry for such a long post :)

    greetings

    Michael
  • #2
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  • #3
    msciwiarski
    Level 9  
    thanks for the response ... I just forgot to add a few things that you paid attention to .. so I bought this house in the same condition as I mentioned at the beginning, i.e. only with a roof .. I had an influence on everything because the developer in the contract gave, for example, a garage door for PLN 2,500, as I wanted a better one, I paid the difference and installed what I wanted .. this was the case with everything .. the entrance door, recuperation installation .. because I have one .. I bought the recuperator myself .. I have a loft very well insulated, because I did it myself .. wool mineral rockwool 18 + 5 + foil and plasterboard, in the attic I have a stove with a container and a recuperator. it is really warm there without any heating .. so I do not have losses through the roof. the walls are 24 cm silicate insulated with 15 cm polystyrene. I use little water ... because from September 2011, when they set up a water meter, I have used 25 m3 of water to this day, I lead a rather sparing lifestyle .. and this consumption of about 1.2 m3 of gas per hour was checked when the stove worked only to maintain the temperature what he did not heat the tank or utility water then.

    I read various posts here on the forum and on others ... and I understand that the stove will not burn me at the beginning of 9m3 a day .. but for 12m3 of gas a day, you can heat the house 200m2.

    greetings

    Michael
  • #4
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  • #5
    Grzegorz Siemienowicz
    Level 36  
    In my opinion, your problem is mainly an uninsulated wall from the side of the neighbor who does not heat.
  • #6
    vitus3k
    Level 18  
    Where you have the driver, the head must be completely to the maximum. Do you have a storage tank with a combi boiler? As? Do you have circulation?
  • #7
    msciwiarski
    Level 9  
    Walker29 wrote:
    Now yes:
    1. Winter is. You compare what is outside now with the old count - wrong.
    2. New building and it doesn't matter much when the built one has to dry out. If you think it's dry, it doesn't necessarily always be that way. In general, the first season can be the most difficult in this respect, with consumption reaching the limits of 120-140% of normal gas consumption. In frosts of -15, set the same temperature for day and night.
    3. Recuperation does not save us in this case! After all, it throws warm (used) air outside and gets cold (fresh) air. There are many of these exchanges.
    4. You write that the hot water boiler did not work - and what do you need hot water? You have no circulation? All pipes insulated (including and especially those in the walls)?
    5. You write that your neighbor has a bill of PLN 800. You saw him ? Was he just telling you? Because I have a neighbor who has an elephant and 4 giraffes in his garage.
    6. Do you heat the garage? The room behind the garage?
    greetings


    thanks a lot for the response ..

    Ad.1 Well, not really .. I will compare two more or less similar periods, because as we know the real seas started about 4-5 days ago. My stove burned almost 900 m3 in the December-January period when the temperature was positive :( I wonder how much will come to me in this period :(
    Ad.3 I also came to such a conclusion, so I turn on the recuperator only in the morning and in the evening in order to "ventilate" the apartment
    Ad.4 just at that moment, when I was measuring, the boiler was working only on what, no one was using the water, the water in the tank was hot, the circulation pump is turned off so far, the pipes are all thoroughly insulated. Installations were made by a guy who also lives in one of the houses on the estate, so as he said, "he is doing well so that the neighbors will not throw stones at him later" :)
    Ad.5 I just saw it, only there are two neighbors and they have been living for 3 years .. what's more, I saw a bill from the last two months of another house inhabited like me since November, with the difference that both sides are inhabited and they left 1080zl for 2 months.
    6. I do not heat the garage, the room behind the garage has a floor, because it is a room adapted as a studio and is covered with very thick mineral wool to soundproof it.

    greetings

    Michael

    Added after 23 [minutes]:

    vitus3k wrote:
    Where you have the driver, the head must be completely to the maximum. Do you have a storage tank with a combi boiler? As? Do you have circulation?


    hello, it is obvious that where I have the controller, it controls it and not the thermostat, I have a tank next to the boiler, the circulation is turned off, as I wrote above, and how it is made, you would have to ask something more specific, because you know, I am not a specialist in this matter :)

    greetings
  • #8
    vitus3k
    Level 18  
    How is the tray connected? After all, the boiler is dual-function. Then why bifunctional?
  • #9
    msciwiarski
    Level 9  
    vitus3k wrote:
    How is the tray connected? After all, the boiler is dual-function. Then why bifunctional?


    Hmm, as far as I know, these energy tops are produced in 2 versions, one and two-function .. on my manual it is not written whether it is one or two :) there is only the model on the Energy Top 24 TE warranty card. As for the connection, behind the pump there is a separating valve for the output to the tank and for what, which is then divided into a circuit to radiators and a floor circuit, of course, with a floor thermostatic mixer.
    as if I can take a photo and share :)

    greetings

    Michael
  • #10
    User removed account
    User removed account  
  • #11
    msciwiarski
    Level 9  
    Walker29 wrote:
    Or maybe the neighbor has a condensing boiler? And you have conventional.


    As I wrote above, this is a housing estate built by one guest and if none of the owners had other frills, the CO guy offered everyone the same model of the stove as I have ... moreover, this neighbor, 2 houses, still has a very similar layout and floor heating and radiators ...
    Yesterday I talked to a few experts, they say that through a cold wall with a neighboring apartment from which I am separated only by 24 cm of silicate, 20% of heat can escape.

    Yesterday, after returning home (around 5:00 p.m.), as suggested above, I set a constant temperature for the day and night in the amount of 20.5 degrees with a hysteresis of 0.5 degrees. The controller is still in the daughter's room and the thermostat is full on. I have a temperature of 18-18.5 degrees in the salon .. :( today, after returning home, I will check how it came out with gas consumption .. in addition, I turned on the underfloor heating in the room behind the garage.

    greetings

    Michael
  • #12
    piotrkk
    Level 13  
    Hello. My question to the author of the post is - why do you have the boiler set to such a high temperature (55 ░ C) if you do not need it. You write that in November and December you set it up. I think it's way too much. I know that the hot water tank must be heated so that the hot water has the right temperature. But with the outside temperature always positive at the end of 2011, I do not believe that it was too low heating. You can't wash yourself with 55`C water - you have to mix in the cold one. After all, you have a floor heating - you also need to mix it (lower the temperature) there, and you do not need 55 ░ C on the radiators. My advice is - set the temperature on the boiler as low as possible (of course with common sense for roommates) and observe the temperature in the rooms, on the radiators (whether they heat evenly). Of course, at such temperatures as now, there is nothing to fool around and the boiler has to go higher, but you also have to choose it. The heating curve should do something like this for you (dependence of the outside temperature on the boiler temperature). If you don't have it on the boiler, switch it manually. Remember that chimney losses are also escaping heat.
  • #13
    msciwiarski
    Level 9  
    piotrkk wrote:
    Hello. My question to the author of the post is - why do you have the boiler set to such a high temperature (55 ░ C) if you do not need it ... [cut!].


    But I don't think you read something .. 55 degrees it was non-domestic hot water. I have usable water at 40 degrees. And as for the water temperature, how many experts have opinions, some say that it is better, for example, 70 degrees, and less, and others that it is lower, for example, 55 and longer .. I currently have water set at 65 degrees.

    greetings ..

    Michael
  • #14
    piotrkk
    Level 13  
    msciwiarski wrote:
    piotrkk wrote:
    Hello. My question to the author of the post is - why do you have the boiler set to such a high temperature (55 ░ C) if you do not need it ... [cut!].


    I don't think you read something .. 55 degrees it was water, not hot water. I have usable water at 40 degrees. And as for the water temperature, how many experts have opinions, some say that it is better, for example, 70 degrees, and less, and others that it is lower, for example, 55 and longer .. I currently have water set at 65 degrees.

    greetings ..

    Michael


    I read well and you name things wrong. CO is central heating and this temperature is usually lower than the hot utility water tank. The boiler should heat DHW directly (your 120L tank) and this is where the boiler temperature 1: 1 is put, and through, say, a three-way valve, you get the coolant to your current needs, which goes to the radiators and / or the next stage to the floor heating. You write - I have utility water 40`C ???? And what about 55`C - something is wrong here. So how do you wash with 40`C water ?? As for the temperature in the boiler, it should be heated lower and longer.
  • #15
    User removed account
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  • #16
    piotrkk
    Level 13  
    Walker29 wrote:
    Piotrkk read with understanding.

    A non-condensing boiler - that's once, it is not good for the low temperature.
    Such a boiler is devoid of any modulation and the lower the temperature is worse for it.


    I know that it is a non-condensing boiler and let me have my opinion on whether or not the low temperature serves them. If the boilers in my family work for several years, such durability is enough for me. I will not discuss whether it is harmful to it or not for me it is important to use energy for the house and not to heat the yard through the chimney. That's it for me.
  • #17
    Grzegorz Siemienowicz
    Level 36  
    The C and D curves are the efficiencies for modern non-condensing gas boilers (the shape is approximate for virtually all brands).
    Is 21 m3 of gas for heating a day a lot?
  • #18
    msciwiarski
    Level 9  
    piotrkk wrote:
    I know that it is a non-condensing boiler and let me have my opinion on whether or not the low temperature serves them. If the boilers in my family work for several years, such durability is enough for me. I will not discuss whether it is harmful to it or not for me it is important to use energy for the house and not to heat the yard through the chimney. That's it for me.


    I am also not a specialist in this field, but I know one thing ... I have two knobs on the stove: one is responsible for the temperature (it has a radiator icon next to it :) ) and the second is for hot water (it has a tap icon :) ). This stove works in the so-called DHW priority, which means that the most important thing for him is heating if there is a need for domestic water, and not what I compared with all my friends who have similar stoves and the domestic water knob is at about 40 degrees, and from what it is different .. as I wrote before there are two schools as they say :) Warsaw and Pozna˝ :)


    Added after 1 [minutes]:

    Walker29 wrote:


    To the author
    Another problematic thing may be your 0.5 degree hysteresis. Increase it if you have the option to one. You will lose some comfort, but the boiler will (should) fire less often, but work a little longer.


    Heh, if I can talk about any comfort having 18 degrees in the living room in the morning ?? :) but in fact I must switch to 1 degree hysteresis because the rooms cool down quite quickly after heating up :(

    greetings


    Michael
  • #19
    LFlashman
    Level 10  
    Hello,
    Actually, this boiler burns too much gas. I have a similar problem, i.e. gas combustion within 20m3 a day, but I have 270m2 to heat.

    Questions
    a) what windows do you have (how many m2 in total and number of panes)
    b) do you have a garage built into the body of the building (what kind of gate)
    c) how much polystyrene do you have under the floor on the ground


    I am asking because this heat is escaping us somewhere.

    I have hints that I need to insulate the garage (in the body of the building) from the inside. Good luck in finding a solution to your problem.
  • #20
    msciwiarski
    Level 9  
    LFlashman wrote:
    Hello,
    Actually, this boiler burns too much gas. I have a similar problem, i.e. gas combustion within 20m3 a day, but I have 270m2 to heat.

    Questions
    a) what windows do you have (how many m2 in total and number of panes)
    b) do you have a garage built into the body of the building (what kind of gate)
    c) how much polystyrene do you have under the floor on the ground


    I am asking because this heat is escaping us somewhere.

    I have hints that I need to insulate the garage (in the body of the building) from the inside. Good luck in finding a solution to your problem.


    Welcome,

    Step by step, I reach the so far optimal settings for the furnace in terms of (as) comfortable temperature and as little combustion as possible ... after turning off the underfloor heating in the room behind the garage and setting a constant temperature for the day and night around 20.5 degrees yesterday by the stove burned about 18 m3. So some positive change, despite the greater frost, is ..

    as for your questions, in the first post I gave a link to the projections of this house, because you see it is a slightly unusual structure of the building, which stands on a slope and in fact, apart from the built-in garage, the room behind it and the windbreak, no other room is "on ground "just above the garage, above the room behind the garage and above the windbreak.

    In the garage, the radiator is turned on, and the gate is warm Horman, the gate is so tight that without heating the garage at -24 degrees outside I have about 8-10 degrees in the garage

    I have PVC windows with Veka hardware, additionally I have installed external blinds (from dusk I use them to close the windows because my wife does not digest curtains :) ), which are also some kind of a barrier to the cold, and how many meters of windows do I have ... hmm, honestly, I did not count :) but on the elevation projections you can see what the scale is.

    the heat most likely escapes my uninsulated wall of the uninhabited second half of my "twin" :( and there is not much you can do here ... :(

    best regards and thank you all for your interest in the topic ...

    Michael.
  • #21
    Ba˝ka w nosie
    Level 10  
    In my house, 240m2 with cellars, 800m3 cubature, well insulated. The furnace eats 20 m3 at the temperature of -15 day and -24 night (18 degrees in the cottage). The house is new, I hear opinions that it has not been burned in and that it has not been burned in, but I am not convinced of them.

    It seems to me that the stove (Wolf CGS 20/160) has a fault, the flue gas analysis was not done at the first start (i.e. about a month ago). If someone had such a case, I am waiting for a hint.

    Maybe it will normalize itself? Maybe this stove can be adjusted somehow?
  • #22
    gregor50+
    Level 19  
    Hello.
    If you think that the building is already dry, invite a company that will take infrared photos of the building and you will see where the heat is escaping.
    You can then advertise the construction of the building by the developer.
    In addition, this cold wall can have very large losses according to my estimates in frosts up to 10m3 a day (and maybe even more).
    I have amateur experience in insulating the building, so when it comes to a new house, I advise only the company mentioned above, if the building is OK, then the stove + the entire central heating installation.
  • #23
    jaskul
    Level 17  
    Ba˝ka w nosie wrote:
    In my house, 240m2 with cellars, 800m3 cubature, well insulated. The furnace eats 20 m3 at the temperature of -15 day and -24 night (18 degrees in the cottage). The house is new, I hear opinions that it has not been burned in and that it has not been burned in, but I am not convinced of them.

    It seems to me that the stove (Wolf CGS 20/160) has a fault, the flue gas analysis was not done at the first start (i.e. about a month ago). If someone had such a case, I am waiting for a hint.

    Maybe it will normalize itself? Maybe this stove can be adjusted somehow?


    As for me, it is quite normal and even low consumption, taking into account the building and outside temperatures.
  • #24
    Ba˝ka w nosie
    Level 10  
    Temperatures are quite extreme lately, fact. But 20m3 ???? House, made of Ytong 24, 15 cm of wool, roof of 25 cm wool, 3 glass windows ...

    The same neighbor's furnace consumed 4 - 5 m3 of gauze at a temperature of 0 - 4 degrees. Mine then ate 13-15 m3.
  • #25
    User removed account
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  • #26
    jaskul
    Level 17  
    Yes, 20 m3 at these temperatures is really normal consumption. I burn about 20 liters of oil a day - the oil has more calories, my house is less well insulated.
    So 20 m3 of gas per 240 meters at this temperature is now a good result.
  • #27
    Ba˝ka w nosie
    Level 10  
    I am not going on the same topic, but I have spoken about it, citing my experiences.

    Is there a limit to the topics on which one speaks? Or are you overzealous, get too excited about life on the Internet, and like to wire someone up?
  • #28
    User removed account
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  • #29
    Jarsey
    Level 11  
    Hello, I think it's a bit of a lot. In my house, net 150m2, I heat up and down at 21 degrees, 5 hours at night at 19.5. The amount of gas burned is 11.5-12.5 m3. Night -19C, day -13C.
    I think you need to adjust the furnace settings, controls, flows. I have been struggling with it for 3 months since I lived in my new home. 9 meters3 earlier he could burn me at day 8C, night 3C.
    I would like to add that I do not have any recuperation, etc. news. Also, let me add that this house is one big thermal bridge. At -18C frost, I borrowed a thermal imaging camera, I flew inside and out of the house. Massacre entrance door, garage door as well. I do not heat the garage, so on the camera I saw bricks between the garage and the living room. I still have some work to do.
  • #30
    jaskul
    Level 17  
    20 meters of gas burned is around 160 kWh divided by 24 hours is 6.6 kWh per hour. So the heat demand of your house is 6.6 KW - such a heater must run non-stop. I am reading the project of my house - BK24 + 15 styro - the house is 4 years old, at a temperature of - 20 degrees outside and 20 degrees inside, the heat demand is 12 KW ...