Understanding Electrical Current Travel Along Walls and its Relation to Circuit Theory

Bronek22 wrote:

This is the original text.

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The voltage can occur (which no one usually considers) not on the pin, but on the ground or wall, and the pin as a well-grounded element creates a potential difference to these building elements.

My opinion is that this is not possible.

I, on the other hand, believe that it is, and I have even already encountered such a case in an old building. Damaged wires in the wall caused voltage to appear on the wall. More interestingly, a metal handrail (stairs to the basement) was planted on this wall. Touching the handrail and this wall at the same time at the point of damage to the wire in the wall, a "tingling" sensation was clearly felt. The handrail itself did not kick. Neither did the wall itself, but touching the wall with a bare elbow, while holding on to the handrail while going down to the basement, one could feel the flow of electricity in this area.
After my thorough investigation, it turned out that the guy who installed this handrail while drilling holes for the studs had damaged the insulation of the wire, which was in the wall under the plaster about 4cm. This was one of several tref holes where the dowels wouldn't stick. He drilled until he found places where the dowels would hold, and plastered those tref holes where he couldn't get the dowels to hold.

And do stray currents flow in lightning conductors between WN poles? Let's consider the situation that the HV line goes parallel to the LV line, in which the PEN wire has broken, which is grounded from time to time.

lukiiiii wrote:

Are stray currents flowing in lightning conductors between WN poles?

Any conductor is a conductor of purpose - like a ditch to drain water so that there is no swamp. Stray currents should be minimized by better basic protection, and walls should be dried(minimize electrolytes).

On a HV line PEN damage should not cause large stray currents because the load there is usually symmetrical, the problem is much more likely to arise on an LV line where asymmetry is much more common. There are much more frequent probably momentary currents associated with electrical discharges to LV poles, and I know a case of serious damage to the electrical system in a house after a lightning strike on a pole about 200m from the house.

I would like to add that the human body, in addition to resistance, is also characterized by capacitance, and the slippers are the linings of this capacitor.

I wrote about similar digging in this topic Digging taps - periodic inspection of the building - the matter is currently being dealt with by the building supervision.

In Wroclaw very often the suspension of streetcar lines is to the walls of buildings, and in many people in old tenements (thick brick and wooden ceilings) a screwdriver with a neon light shines in both holes of the sockets , and the water pipes at the passages through the walls corrode very quickly.

In tenements where electroosmosis is used, you can feel a tingling sensation when touching the walls.

Many tenements still have a cotton braided installation - also the walls often tingle, and the screwdriver with a neon light shines when touching the Neutral, and on the phase does not shine.

And what's more interesting is that most of these tenements have dry walls, but over the years of residence of electrolysis has produced some salt that causes slight conduction, only a full beat of plaster helps.

The strangest case is digging and a solid shock to a person occurred while sleeping against a wall where a corpse lay in the apartment on the other side for several days, but almost a year before and it was supposedly cleaned up.

And during a thunderstorm, the taps can also make a good ash because of air ionization and well-insulated building foundations.

Bronek22 wrote:

Is the resistance of the floor or wall poor ? It is measurable. I assure you that the wall in relation to PE will get a lot of Mom.

and it depends on what measuring voltage you are measuring - at low voltage a few Momas, at several hundred volts it can come out a dozen Ohms

wada wrote:

and it depends on what voltage you are measuring with - at low voltage a few Megaohms, at several hundred volts it can come out several Ohms

What did the author have in mind?
Is there some new physics that causes the resistance to change depending on the voltage? Maybe write more about this, because it is quite an interesting phenomenon that I have not yet learned .

Plumpi wrote:

wada wrote:

and it depends on what voltage you are measuring with - at low voltage a few Megaohms, at several hundred volts it can come out several Ohms

What did the author mean?
Could it be some new physics that causes the resistance to change depending on the voltage? Maybe write more about this, because it is quite an interesting phenomenon that I have not yet learned

This means that ze author knows the subject and knows what he writes

Plumpi wrote:

wada wrote:

and it depends on what measuring voltage you are measuring - at low voltage a few Megaohms, at several hundred volts it can come out several Ohms

What did the author have in mind?
Could it be some new physics that causes the resistance to change depending on the voltage? Maybe write more about this, because it is quite an interesting phenomenon that I have not yet learned

And have you heard of such a thing as semiconductors
Or the breakdown voltage
Or the electrochemical properties of materials (varistors, surge arrestors)

Well, for example, measure with a meter the resistance of some low-voltage electrolytic capacitor, and then its resistance using ohm's law and a large measuring voltage - just do it wearing safety glasses

Well, the heating specialist has probably heard of electrochemical heaters (used, for example, in aquariums) where there is ordinary salt, or calcium carbonate, or sodium - and these chemicals are also in the wall and plaster.

Well do not measure the resistance of an electrolytic capacitor, good.....

michuszcze wrote:

No measure the resistance of an electrolytic capacitor, good.....

And what is not to measure? In such a capacitor there are a minimum,important 3 resistances and one inductance.

wada wrote:

Plumpi wrote:

wada wrote:

and it depends what voltage you are measuring with - at low voltages a few Megaohms, at several hundred volts it can come out several Ohms

What did the author have in mind?
Could it be some new physics that causes the resistance to change depending on the voltage? Maybe write something more about this, because it is quite an interesting phenomenon that I have not yet learned

Are you hearing about something like semiconductors
Or about breakdown voltage
Or about electrochemical properties of materials (varistors, surge arrestors)

Well, for example, measure with a meter the resistance of some low-voltage electrolytic capacitor, and then its resistance using the Ohm's law and a large measuring voltage - just do it wearing safety glasses

Well, and the heating specialist has probably heard of electrochemical heaters (used, for example, in aquariums) where there is ordinary salt, or calcium carbonate, or sodium - and these chemicals are also in the wall and plaster

Kolego, this dull heating specialist is an electronics-automation specialist by profession, who has not only heard about semiconductors, but also learned about them and has been working in this profession for more than 25 years.
Today he works for a large company repairing industrial automation equipment (transmitters, controllers, regulators, etc.), and doing metrology (not to be confused with meteorology, the science of clouds). Metrology is measurement, including electrical measurement. He designs and constructs industrial automation and measurement equipment.
After company hours, he runs his DG designing electronics (mainly microprocessor controllers) and coddles installing and servicing central heating boilers and installations.

How do you think such a dull heating specialist will be able to grasp with his mind what you are writing about?
So far I don't understand any of this.
I was taught that capacitors are not semiconductors, and the resistance of a conductor does not change under the influence of voltage changes.
Maybe somewhere in your mind the phenomenon of avalanche breakdown such as occurs in avalanche diodes, zener diodes or varistors?
Only that the wall is not a semiconductor junction, and if wet it is rather an electrolyte with ionic conductivity. Unfortunately, I have never heard of the avalanche phenomenon in ionic conduction.
Maybe you have some newer information that I have not had the opportunity to learn about?
Write something more on this subject. I am very curious. Maybe I will get educated and stop charing as a dull heating specialist? .

Plumpi
You have strayed very far from the topic Can electricity travel through the walls and kick And. secondly, on the forum you can't insult anyone (even yourself) I took you seriously because I know a thing or two about your other posts. I gave in brief examples of different resistance measured with an ordinary meter low voltage.

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And have you heard of such a thing as semiconductors

an ordinary silicon diode resistance measurement with a meter will show Few MΩ , and at higher voltages measuring in series with another resistor (like measuring grounding resistors) will be several Ω , in construction you have this effect when connecting different metals (copper / aluminum cables) and even between Gas concrete (popular suporex) and gypsum plaster (acts like an old-fashioned selenium rectifier) and on the wall you have a positive voltage to PE.

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Or with a breakdown voltage

I don't think I need to explain this - spark arrestors, insulation breakdown , etc.....

Quote:

Or about the electrochemical properties of materials (varistors, surge protectors)

here jokingly as the most primitive example I gave electrolytic capacitors, with which every electronics technician, and some electricians have met and seen the pyrotechnic effects when the voltage is exceeded.
No and aquarium heaters which without any semiconductors, microprocessors, and other newfangled electronic Gadgets perfectly maintained the temperature of 26 ° C in the aquarium - and that's just to the 220V mains hooked up two nails in a glass tube and the right amount of salt. and the walls behave similarly, as cold they kick as warm they do not kick and this cold / warmth of the walls comes from the content of some salt.


As another curiosity for all electricians, this is an example of spontaneous combustion of an electrical outlet of which a long time ago we did an expertise belonging to the SEP at the time.

As you can see it's a nice hole in the wall and a trace of the outlet is gone, in the floor burned a deep hole 8cm in diameter from dripping plastic. Terrible stench was in the stairwell and smoke coming out from under the door, the owner was not at home and the neighbors called the fire department , they entered through it and extinguished the fire stink.
There was the problem of the broken window and the cost of the intervention of firefighters.
The firefighters and poor electricians of the administration clung to the owner "What did you plug into this socket"
She insisted that she had never used this socket, and even for some time she felt that the wall near the door frame tingled with electricity .
It was a curb socket, the wire was new (7 years old) 3x2.5mm² next to a heavily heated after the night tariff accumulation stove fed from a separate three-phase line.
The woman was telling the truth - there was also an electrochemical reaction here, heat, gypsum deposition of the box and snow on the cables, I do not remember exactly, but chemists explained it somehow.
At such a furnace, the wall was certainly dry - yet it tingled with electricity.
The eSy 16A fuses from the outlet and 25A in the stairwell did not work, if there had been a differential for all outlets would probably have turned off the voltage.

I used to measure many times, but graybeards always had a problem in interpreting the results;
whether it is the voltage in Volts
or in V/cm²
or maybe in A/cm²
As for me it is the voltage in Volts and the current A/cm², because whether the wall was touched with an ordinary banana or a probe with an area of 200cm² the voltage was the same, and the short circuit current to PE often reached 4A on damp walls.
There were also arguments about the measuring probe, some preferred a steel trowel with a plastic handle and a conductive sponge on the contact surface, others believed that a Styrofoam trowel covered with an ordinary sponge and aluminum foil pressed with this is more reliable. And in my opinion, the conductive sponge was better, it had a better contact on curved and porous plaster and more short-circuit current showed.
It is also worth paying attention to the direct current that is often generated when passing through different materials.

Fellow Wada, I think you are letting your imagination run too far Read a little about wall and floor resistance measurements and pay attention to what methods and voltage values these measurements should be made with.

Plumpi wrote:

Dude Wada, I think you're letting your imagination run too far Read a little about wall and floor resistance measurements and note with what methods and what voltage values these measurements should be made.

note that I wrote " sometimes "and that's a little almost 20 years ago and measurements were made with popular crank meters
How is it now -. I don't know
And I don't want to know because pulling the wire doesn't amuse me anymore and it doesn't interest me.
And the problem is and will be, changes in measurement methods are yet to come.

15kVmaciej wrote:

wada wrote:

It is also worth paying attention to the DC current that is often generated when passing through different materials.

I had a glare why I sometimes have different readings with different methods!
....

wada wrote:

and even between Gas concrete (popular suporex) and gypsum plaster (acts like an old-fashioned selenium rectifier) and on the wall you have positive voltage with respect to PE

and a colleague relied on various unigrunts with which walls are insulated before plastering - he was doing some research on measuring the insulation of walls by measuring its conductivity - something like that - I do not remember exactly.
The conductivity characteristics varied depending on what company the unigrunt was, and very much resembled the characteristics of the semiconductor Diak

15kVmaciej wrote:

wada wrote:

A colleague relied on various unigruntles with which walls are insulated before plastering - he did some research on measuring wall insulation by measuring its conductivity - something like that - I don't remember exactly.

Nothing of the sort, in a certain metal box embedded in the wall I had readings against it and the PE coming from another building, the wire run separately, no inductions and the like. A colleague directed me what to look at more closely on both sides of the wall

well these tests are what a fellow PhD student at the polytechnic tried to do.
A case similar to yours and a solid spark when splicing equalization connections and PE from two buildings, also happened, but the electricians spliced it explaining that it was some induction or phase shift on different sections of the line.
The truth came out probably after two months - a red rod on the wall - a cooper going on the facade wall and passing through several other walls, was plastered, an electrochemical cell was formed, from what I recall it had 16V of direct voltage and a considerable current.
Another case was PEN overloaded on one phase had almost 30V (alternating) more than PEN from another line.

Colleagues I see that the discussion very interesting, so I will also describe my case perhaps this story will save someone time and nerves. An acquaintance complained to me that he has a problem because in the shower during bathing something slightly pinches. He stated that adults bathe there, but children are afraid to send there. Here is the answer as to why this was happening. The shower was on the first floor, the shower tray as it turned out leaked. Water got into the tube with the wires feeding the bulb on the first floor, the water, unfortunately, was not so much that the household members noticed it. Permanently connected to the bulb was a phase, zero through the switch. To make things more interesting, only in part of the house the phase was swapped with the PEN wire. The installation was not protected by a differential, only the old-fashioned screw-in fuses (plugs). So I answer, yes current can travel and on the walls and ceilings.