logo elektroda
logo elektroda
X
logo elektroda

Understanding Electrical Shocks at Home: Grounding, Resistance, and Circuit Closure

MasMas 8490 12
ADVERTISEMENT
Treść została przetłumaczona polish » english Zobacz oryginalną wersję tematu
  • #1 16212549
    MasMas
    Level 16  
    Hello,

    I recently had a kind of OHS and began to wonder. I kindly ask you for a factual answer, not laughing or showing how much more you know from me.

    For the essence of the problem, we assume installation without any safeguards (differentials, etc.).

    It is certainly the case that if we grip the phase conductor and our body is grounded, then due to the grounding of the N conductor, we will close the circuit and the current will kick us off.

    1) Paralysis occurs at home and not so rarely - so it is certainly possible.

    2) But how are we grounded at home? There are often ceramic tiles, wooden floors, parquet floors, rubber flaps etc. So how are we grounded if the resistance is huge.

    3) If someone on 2) answers that sometimes the resistance is not so big and the circuit is closed, do they have a differential if I took the phase wire and just put it on the floor, would the differential work?

    4) Whether in this whole matter can matter that between up. grounded concrete of the house, or grounded reinforcement of this concrete, and a man forms a capacitor, and since the current is variable (AC 50Hz) it flows through such a capacitor and despite the lack of grounding (insulating floor) the current can flow? If so, could such a current shock / be felt?

    5) Since fuses, differentials and other electrical standards are in force in construction law / practice, why does the concrete not be lined with a thin layer of insulating rubber before laying the floor - eliminating (almost) the possibility of getting a human shock at home?


    If anyone wants to write that such a topic has already been, unfortunately I have not seen anywhere answers to 3), 4) and 5) question.
  • ADVERTISEMENT
  • #2 16212627
    Marian B
    Level 38  
    MasMas wrote:
    is not lined with a thin layer of some insulating rubber - eliminating (almost) the possibility of electrocution at home?


    It is not lectured in the "whole and from the beginning" primarily due to the freedom of interior design, as well as the cost.

    In contrast, some workplaces are insulated as much as possible by the location of rugs made of thick, uniform rubber with a thickness of 1.5 to 2 cm. I still have at home two rugs, a remnant from the state-owned ZURiT workshop, which were a must for every stand. They are in a concrete basement, where I have a handy DIY.
  • ADVERTISEMENT
  • #3 16212642
    vodiczka
    Level 43  
    MasMas wrote:
    2) But how are we grounded at home? There are often ceramic tiles, wooden floors, parquet floors, rubber flaps etc. So how are we grounded if the resistance is huge.
    We are grounded when, for example, we touch a radiator, tap or gas stove.
    Just touching the phase wire when you are standing on a dry floor, inert ceramics, wood or PVC, will not cause an electric shock. The differential will not work either when you put it on the floor and hook it to the phase.
  • #4 16212650
    brofran
    Level 41  
    vodiczka wrote:
    The differential will not work either when you put it on the floor and hook it to the phase.

    Something makes no sense in this statement?
  • #5 16212653
    kokapetyl
    Level 43  
    MasMas wrote:

    2) But how are we grounded at home?

    Because we often do not think what we are doing and touching the phase wire, we are leaning against the wall, or we touch other things with our hands, the floor may be damp, etc.
  • ADVERTISEMENT
  • #6 16212658
    vodiczka
    Level 43  
    MasMas wrote:
    4) Whether in this whole matter can matter that between up. grounded concrete of the house, or grounded reinforcement of this concrete, and a man forms a capacitor, and since the current is variable (AC 50 Hz) it flows through such a capacitor and despite the lack of grounding (insulating floor) the current can flow? If so, could such a current shock / be felt?
    That's how you can explain why the neon lamp is lit in the probe held in your fingers and touching the phase wire. The neon lighting current is on the order of microamps. To get struck you need several dozen milliamps, to feel the effects of electricity (tingling, pinching) you need a power of one milliamp.
  • #7 16212660
    xury
    Automation specialist
    Ad 2 I will answer the question with a question. Do you know what AC value is dangerous for a man? And thus what is the resulting resistance at such a current?
    As for the resistance itself, it depends on many factors. Among other things from the current flow surface. Measuring point by tapping the meter tips will be large. Make yourself a "meter" meter by meter and put such "terminals" on the meter and check what resistance you will have now. In addition, the meter measures very low voltage.
    Regarding question 3, put such a live "paw" on concrete and check if the RCD does not work. If it does not work immediately then probably when turning on anything from this circuit. There may even be a second-class device.
    I recently had such a case.
    5. And here I will tell you contrary. Or maybe the other way around? Cover the entire apartment with metal and not grounded and insulated from the earth, but connected to all other non-grounded metals?
    What do you think would be safer for man? Full isolation or full equipotentialisation?
  • #8 16212665
    vodiczka
    Level 43  
    kokapetyl wrote:
    Because often we do not think what we do and touching the phase wire, we are leaning against the wall,
    Yeah, and reinforcing wires stick out of the wall because the plasterers kicked the job :)
    It is possible to lean against a wet socket and a wet wall when painting or when a neighbor floods the apartment :cry:

    Added after 4 [minutes]:

    brofran wrote:
    Something makes no sense in this statement?
    Sorry, it was about the position of the phase wire :)
    MasMas wrote:
    if - having a difference - if I took the phase wire and just laid it on the floor, would the differential work?
  • ADVERTISEMENT
  • #9 16212703
    rafal o
    Level 17  
    Ad 3 - a correctly installed differential will work if the current flowing through your body is greater than
    rated differential current differential.
    Ad 4 - theoretically yes, but the capacity of the condenser created at 50 Hz will give a negligible (negligible) current flow.
    Ad 5 - one of the ways to provide protection against electric shock is the insulation of the workplace (insulation platforms, etc., rugs). The idea of laying an insulator layer between the concrete and the floor is not practical, because firstly it is impossible to check such insulation, secondly if the concrete base
    it would be wet, a thin insulating conductor layer and above it a conductive floor, a capacitor created in this way with considerable dimensions could cause the flow of significant capacitive current.
  • #10 16212753
    Madrik
    moderator of Robotics
    MasMas wrote:

    It is certainly the case that if we grip the phase conductor and our body is grounded, then due to the grounding of the N conductor, we will close the circuit and the current will kick us off.

    1) Paralysis occurs at home and not so rarely - so it is certainly possible.


    The key word here is "We will close the circuit". For the current to flow, we must be grounded, but it is important where in the body contact with the electrical potential occurs, and where our body is grounded. This defines the electric shock flow path. And now the curiosity - If the shock current does not flow through organs important for life, of a dangerous value - then paralysis will not kill us. This can be done by later effects of paralysis, so after each such event, you should immediately contact your doctor and do appropriate tests (after informing the doctor about the cause).

    MasMas wrote:

    2) But how are we grounded at home? There are often ceramic tiles, wooden floors, parquet floors, rubber flaps etc. So how are we grounded if the resistance is huge.


    The average resistance of the human body is 1000 k ?. With 230 V electric shock, this gives 230 mA. shock current. Kills - 75 mA.
    Body resistance is variable. Internal resistance of the body is negligible - it is mainly water, after all - 75%. In addition, salt and minerals that change water and blood in tissues into electrolytes. Therefore, the language senses the battery voltage when you touch the poles. Resistance mainly gives us epidermis - the dead part of the skin. It may be thicker (some are able to hold the phase and neutral wire in hand and not feel the current flow), another person, or under other conditions will have a resistance much lower than 1000 k ?.
    We can ground ourselves in two ways. By touching the PE or N conductor (or an element with a galvanic connection to these conductors), and having contact with a natural earth electrode - e.g. water pipe (metal, plastic are insulated).
    If you do not ground yourself, i.e. you will stand on terracotta tiles (dry) and touch the phase wire, you will not be affected. However, it is possible for the leakage current to flow. Probably every electrician has touched a live element at least once in his career. And most of them continue their careers. There are certain health and safety rules that you follow and which electricians learn. Eg the famous - "hand in your pocket", or appropriate footwear and clothing.

    MasMas wrote:

    3) If someone on 2) answers that sometimes the resistance is not so big and the circuit is closed, do they have a differential if I took the phase wire and just put it on the floor, would the differential work?


    The differential works by controlling the difference in current entering and returning to the system. If the current flows in a different way than the circuit installation, the differential will work because the current balance in the circuit changes when the leakage current exceeds the set value. Many electricians used to swear it very much. It was said that differentials are emergency and "disturb" because they turn off anything. Fortunately, for many years there is a completely different view on these matters.

    MasMas wrote:

    4) Whether in this whole matter can matter that between up. grounded concrete of the house, or grounded reinforcement of this concrete, and a man forms a capacitor, and since the current is variable (AC 50Hz) it flows through such a capacitor and despite the lack of grounding (insulating floor) the current can flow? If so, could such a current shock / be felt?


    No. Man does not create a condenser with concrete reinforcement. See any diagram of a human shock circuit. The beginning and end of the circuit is a transformer. The destruction occurs when a human connects the phase conductor with a neutral or protective conductor. With the fact that the issue of grounding is very complex and in a few sentences it will not explain.

    MasMas wrote:

    5) Since fuses, differentials and other electrical standards are in force in construction law / practice, why does the concrete not be lined with a thin layer of insulating rubber before laying the floor - eliminating (almost) the possibility of getting a human shock at home?


    It does not make sense. Dry concrete insulates as well as rubber. And fuses, differentials, and a properly designed installation eliminate the problem 100%. Only direct human contact with a live and ground phase conductor or a neutral conductor can cause a problem. And now this situation can only occur with intentional interference in the efficient installation, or with its improper performance and poor maintenance.

    There are also such solutions in the design of electrical installations that a person who has contact with electrical potential has no chance of closing the fire circuit, even knowingly and specifically. Under certain conditions, such solutions are used regularly.

    Normally, the system user cannot come in contact with live parts. Accidents usually occur when people with no qualifications or training take DIY. Which is very dangerous and is the source of most "sculptures" in installations, often in a very dangerous way. Many people think that when they saw an electrician somewhere and know what "phase" and "zero" are, they already know about electricity. And this is unfortunately an authentic "bullsh * t". If such a person violates the rules of installation and work rules for such an installation, there is a high risk of danger. This was the case, for example, with actor Jan Chmielnik, who tried to repair a live boiler in a flooded basement, while being alone on the property.

    MasMas wrote:

    If anyone wants to write that such a topic has already been, unfortunately I have not seen anywhere answers to 3), 4) and 5) question.


    This topic has been hundreds of times. Answers in various forms on the forum exist in many threads. Only they are usually described in a much more technically correct language, not in a completely secular way.

    You would find the answer after reading any manual for electricians, in the chapter on electric shock protection, and after learning the basics of electrical engineering.
  • #11 16212831
    Krzysztof Kamienski
    Level 43  
    rafal o wrote:
    Man does not create a condenser with concrete reinforcement
    @Madrik Here I would argue a little with this claim. I know from experience that depending on the thickness of the floor - dielectric, its dielectric permittivity ? and the surface area of human feet (for Kaczor these values are correspondingly higher :D ), this capacity is several dozen to several hundred picofarads. This gives a dozen microamps for 220VAC and 50 Hz. The neon probe is lit. As an example, I will give my colleague the following experiment - a 40W / 220V bulb in his fingers behind a threaded plinth touched to the output of a high power WCZ generator (100W transmitter several MHz) with a foot, thanks to the existence of this capacity, it lights up full. The current flowing through the body is imperceptible despite the value of several dozen milliamperes, due to the effect of "skin" at WCZ, but this is another "fairy tale".
  • #12 16213121
    MasMas
    Level 16  
    Thank you all for the answers! You've probably dispelled all my doubts :)
  • #13 16216001
    ptero
    Level 24  
    :) Every good electrician is full of doubts, knows how much he doesn't know ... :)

    Moderated By Madrik:

    3.1.11. Do not send messages that add nothing to the discussion. They are misleading, dangerous or do not solve the user's problem.

Topic summary

The discussion revolves around the understanding of electrical shocks in home environments, particularly focusing on grounding, resistance, and circuit closure. Key points include the conditions under which electric shocks can occur, such as touching a phase conductor while grounded. Participants clarify that common household materials like ceramic tiles and wooden floors typically have high resistance, which may prevent shocks unless conditions change (e.g., dampness). The effectiveness of differential circuit breakers (RCDs) is debated, with emphasis on their operation when current flows through the body. The conversation also touches on the variable resistance of the human body and the importance of contact points in determining shock severity. Overall, the discussion highlights the complexities of electrical safety in domestic settings.
Summary generated by the language model.
ADVERTISEMENT