Differential Disconnects Power in House: Motors (230V), Hager MB 116A, GE B6 G61, Moisture Effects

Hello
I have had a problem with the differential in my house for several days, so I am asking you for advice.
I would like to point out that I am a layman in this matter, therefore I am asking for your understanding.

I will try to summarize.
Two weeks ago, one of the motors (230V) from the entrance gate, due to moisture, got a breakdown on the winding between N and PE, therefore the main differential worked, cutting off the power supply to the whole house.

I will just add that the gate from the very beginning, i.e. since it is installed, has " little "protection in the form of two miniature circuit breakers.
First of them ( Hager MB 116A ) is located in the main switch cabinet, and it protects a certain segment of the receivers in the basement. From this power supply there is a separate line for powering the entrance gate, a separate box is installed here, in which two overcurrent switches are installed ( GE B6 G61 - one secures the entrance gate, the other a video intercom )

And here, in front of the circuit breakers, I decided to add an additional differential.
The assumption was that at the time of the re-piercing, it would first knock out the difference in the basement, and the difference on the main board would remain "intact". I installed everything yesterday, the basement differential seems to be working fine because the button is pressed " test "causes it to disconnect, but another thing worries me. The so-called artificial creation of a puncture behind the differential between the N and PE conductors causes the breakout of both differentials, the one in the basement and the one on the main board, thus turning off the electricity in the whole house.

Below I present a "layman" diagram of how I have it connected.
I am asking for verification and some tips.

In order not to "knock out" the main differential, in the event of a gate / intercom failure, the differential servicing the gate and intercom should be powered from the front (from above) of the main differential.

There is one clue. You do not understand the principle of operation or the role of these safeguards, so I have a right to presume that you have already messed up the installation enough. Ask someone who will watch it, think about it and solve your problem by getting the installation in order.

stanislaw1954 wrote:

In order not to "knock out" the main differential, in the event of a gate / intercom failure, the differential servicing the gate and intercom should be powered from the front (from above) of the main differential.

I already thought about it, but then the rest of the receivers that are on this line in the basement will be deprived of residual current protection. Another way out is
assuming this single-phase differential on the main board right after the overcurrent 16A, switching the main phase to the basement in front of the main differential?

retrofood wrote:

There is one clue. You do not understand the principle of operation or the role of these safeguards, so I have a right to presume that you have already messed up the installation enough. Ask someone who will watch it, think about it and solve your problem by getting the installation in order.

I have never written anywhere that I am a professional or specialist / I clearly indicated at the beginning that I am a layman. I don't see much point in calling a specialist to connect the gate's power supply a little differently. And when it comes to the mess ... during the renovation of the house a few years ago I took a professional electrician who replaced the boards, installations etc ... here is the result of his work. No offense towards professionals, but for me it is a mess.

lordpakernik wrote:

... Do you have a 3 phase installation? What is the network layout? I do not understand why these differentials are plugged in in series.
There is no selectivity between them and they can switch off as they please ...

Yes, the installation is 3-phase L and of course N zero and PE earth.
Can you give a hint on how else to connect it?
In principle, I made the connection according to the pattern in this photo, with the difference that there is an isolating switch in front of the single-phase differential - I assumed that the connection principle would be the same.

perkoss wrote:

I have never written anywhere that I am a professional or specialist / I clearly indicated at the beginning that I am a layman. I don't see much point in calling a professional to connect the gate power a little differently. Speaking of the mess ... during the renovation of the house a few years ago I took a professional electrician who replaced the boards, installations etc ... this is the effect of his work. No offense towards professionals, but for me it is a mess.

Why do you turn to electricians when you know better? Typical profane approach. I am a layman, but I can do better than a specialist.

I do not know what "professional" electrician you took and where this belief about his "professionalism" comes from. I know a lot of bricklayers who think that they can handle the installation, and you think it's no art. Good luck then!

[quote = "retrofood"]

Quote:

Why do you turn to electricians when you know better? Typical profane approach. I am a layman, but I can do better than a specialist.

I do not know what "professional" electrician you took and where this belief about his "professionalism" comes from. I know a lot of bricklayers who think that they can handle the installation, and you think it's no art. Good luck then!

It's nice that you helped. So far I have noticed that on many internet forums where the rule of help is usually adopted - if someone asks for one - you always try to bring the questioning person to the ground floor, while belittling them.
And to answer your question, I can't really afford another electrician to improve my installation in my home. I am sorry to say that the previous electrician did a fluff from the side of the wiring behind the board.
And if he connected everything properly, I do not know it, but so far it fulfills its function ... I think that I am making a mistake in connecting, so I asked what is wrong ...? For now, you treat unauthorized digging in the electrical system as forbidden fruit.
And how did I know that profi ... was his title, he had permits, etc.
If I thought it was no art, I wouldn't ask.

Summing up, I understand that any advice you give is a professional secrecy.

THANK YOU

What are the differential currents of these two differentials - the house and the gate? Both 30mA?

perkoss wrote:

For now, you treat unauthorized burials in the electrical system as forbidden fruit.

Because this buddy is the forbidden fruit. Electricity is not a toy, but a dangerous energy which in the hands of a "non-professional" can simply kill. To be a good electrician, it is not enough to take a SEP course x years ago, but years of practice, experience and broadening your knowledge. I fully support the words of my colleague Retrofood.

neo_dc wrote:

What are the differential currents of these two differentials - the house and the gate? Both 30mA?

The specification states:
Residual current circuit breaker, 4-pole (3P + N) HAGER CD 441J
Rated current 40 A.
Sensitivity 30 mA
AC type - sensitive to sinusoidal currents
rated short-circuit current 6kA

Residual current circuit breaker, 2-pole (P + N) HAGER CD 226J
Rated current 25 A.
Sensitivity 30 mA
AC type - sensitive to sinusoidal currents
rated short-circuit current 6kA

lordpakernik wrote:

1. What exactly does your colleague want to achieve? What are the assumptions?
2. Has the fault in the engine been removed?
3. Is the grid system TN or maybe TT?

ad1. The swing gate motor had a stator breakdown between N and PE. The fault caused the HAGER CD 441J main differential to be broken on the board, thereby completely cutting off the power supply to the entire house. I want to protect myself for the future by adding a second HAGER CD 226J differential. The assumption is that if a similar situation occurs again, the HAGER CD 226J bipolar difference in the basement will knock out, while the HAGER 441J main difference is not to react.
ad2. The defect was eliminated by replacing the stator with a new one.
3. Network layout .... CHECK

lordpakernik wrote:

Quote:

I want to protect myself for the future by adding a second HAGER CD 226J differential. The assumption is that if a similar situation occurs again, the HAGER CD 226J bipolar difference in the basement will knock out, while the HAGER 441J main difference is not to react.

There should be two independent RCDs. With separate N rails, of course common PE. You in this picture have 2 RCDs in series and there is no selectivity between them. Sometimes it can work, the first time, the second time, and sometimes twice, whatever they want. Besides, why this overcurrent switch in front of the RCD. Really if you have it connected like in the 1st picture you put in then you have a great one there groats.
There should be something like this, ie 2 RCDs parallel to each other and are then independent.


It should be because, in order to draw a diagram accurately, you need to see what is there. It is only about connecting differentials. I assume you have a TN family system.

Thank you for your help, but I must admit that I have a bit of a problem with the correct interpretation of the drawing , but I guess that the phase for the bipolar difference should be taken from the main difference, i.e. omit it?
This is what the box looks like - there is a cable mess, but the time for arranging it will come when everything is ok. However, the box is probably all right when it comes to connections?
By the way, I greet the electricians whose hair has bristled on their head

Kania, GE, Hager - there were no more members of the "parish"?
And my hair only bristled, as if someone were asking.

perkoss wrote:

while renovating the house a few years ago I took a professional electrician to replace the boards,

You guys went to the same school together, I can see.

I will shyly ask so; and why is PE connected to the BLACK wire?

As you can see from the posts, my colleague has a very poor idea of electrical installations.
And to this Pseudo Professional Electrician, I would like to thank you.


elpapiotr -> you wrote well.

arturavs wrote:

I will shyly ask so; and why is PE connected to the BLACK wire?

Sorry, my mistake - I wrote while working from memory. PE is combined with blue. And why such a cable with veins, brown-black-blue - adapted from the power already inactive

So far back to the topic.
Thanks for the answers and suggestions. I did according to my friend's proposal, "lordpakernik" and "stanislaw1954", that is, the entire circuit, including the gate and intercom, was connected to the main residual current device.
Now everything works as it should.
Regards, the thread is to be closed.

perkoss wrote:

Thanks for the answers and suggestions. I did according to my friend's proposal "lordpakernik" and "stanislaw1954" Ie I switched the entire circuit with the gate and intercom before the main residual current circuit breaker.
Now everything works as it should.
Regards, the thread is to be closed.

And you think you did well? You're right. You think.

retrofood wrote:

perkoss wrote:

Thanks for the answers and suggestions. I did according to my friend's proposal "lordpakernik" and "stanislaw1954" Ie I switched the entire circuit with the gate and intercom before the main residual current circuit breaker.
Now everything works as it should.
Regards, the thread is to be closed.

And you think you did well? You're right. You think.

Oh, yeah. I forgot to add that this overloaded circuit is also on the residual current circuit breaker / well, it's not obvious!

3.1.9. [retrofood]