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Goat stove connection. No chimney. What isolation

luczija88 104298 30
This content has been translated flag-pl » flag-en View the original version here.
  • #1
    luczija88
    Level 9  
    Hello, I want to put a stove-stove (cast iron, decorative) in a summer house (brick) in allotment gardens. House of about 50 sq m, living room and upper bedroom. The ceiling and the bedroom floor are made of beams and chipboard on it. The goat is to be placed against the wall in a central place. I do not have a chimney and therefore I have a few questions. Maybe you can help. I also mean the lowest possible cost



    If anyone is able to answer any question and share knowledge and experiences, I would be very grateful

    1. What kind of pipe should be used as an internal chimney, does it have to be a pipe for the fireplace, such a black one, it costs about PLN 80 per meter or can some other be used? (it would be nice if it was cheaper and dark because the dark cast iron goat).
    2. Can you walk through the wall in the living room or can you get to the bedroom through this chipboard and then outside? The cost of a double-walled pipe to be outside is greater, so I thought that I would only go out in the bedroom to reduce the section of this double-walled pipe and I would regain more heat
    3. When it comes to insulation, I would like to put up such a red brick wall so that the wall that is now (regips, brick) does not heat up, it is enough to insulate the wall? I don't want to play with some wool and foil insulation and finish it somehow later
    4. Is it enough to make a larger hole in the place where the pipe will pass, to insert a double-walled pipe into it and to fill the gap between these pipes with silicone resistant to higher temperatures?
    5. If I go outside, do I have to give the elbow only or do I have to give the tee? (there would then be two elbows, one inside and one outside). An insulated tee is quite expensive.
    6. Maybe you can do external insulation yourself? But how?
  • #2
    gaz4
    Level 33  
    Let me start with the fact that any error can cause a fire. Even "experts" can mess things up, my cousin's house almost went up in smoke because of errors in the pipe's passage through the wooden ceiling. Trying to solve the matter with two pipes and silicone may end just like that. Maintaining the appropriate distance between the heated pipe and combustible materials is a MUST. On the "Wood instead of gasoline" forum there is a scan of the book "Rural bricklayer guide". If I remember correctly, there are recommendations on this topic.

    Chimney insulation is important for two reasons:

    1) The slower the chimney loses heat, the better the draft will be.
    2) The warmer the chimney, the smaller the deposition of soot, tar, etc. (creosote).

    The longer the section of the uninsulated pipe, the worse it is and the savings in heat dissipation will be paid for with very big operational problems. If someone knows how to burn wood properly and has the habit of taking care of the chimney, he may take a risk. Personally, I advise against it, it is best to do it so that as much of the chimney as possible is made of well-insulated prefabricated elements. And where the chimney (especially a single pipe) comes close to wood and other combustible materials, special care should be taken. I know an accident of spontaneous combustion of wood only from increased temperature!
  • #3
    William Bonawentura
    Level 33  
    Draw sections of this house, it will be easier to suggest something. You should also be interested in the topic "steel bezyczystkowy" on the bricklayer forum.
  • #4
    luczija88
    Level 9  
    I attach a drawing in paint :) I would like to do something like that, or go through the roof, i.e. plasterboard, wooden board, foil, wool, foil and ondulin. But is it possible to do so directly? Goat stove connection. No chimney. What isolation
  • #5
    William Bonawentura
    Level 33  
    IMHO, the most sensible thing to do would be to strengthen the ground floor ceiling above the stove and from this height to build the shaft with light expanded clay bricks above the roof.

    Goat stove connection. No chimney. What isolation

    Inside, a steel pipe spaced with "whiskers". You cannot pass the exhaust pipe through wood or polystyrene without insulation with a material resistant to the high temperature of soot fire.
  • #6
    gaz4
    Level 33  
    Luczija88, the chimney according to the drawing you have proposed is not optimal for many reasons. First of all, keeping it clean would be very difficult, and in the event of soot ignition, it will heat up very much, which may cause a fire. The above proposal for the use of prefabricated elements gives much greater security + additional thermal capacity of the system. An example solution is e.g. here:

    http://muratordom.pl/budowa/dachy-i-stropy/ko...dowac-ceramiczny-komin-systemowy,17_4735.html

    If the wall is made of brick, then you do not need any insulation and distances from it (although the latter will give less heat loss). The most important thing is to clean the soot from where the soot will be removed and to keep a distance between the chimney and combustible elements, insulated with weak heat conductors (of course non-flammable). If you want as much heat as possible to be transferred to the upper floor, insulate the lower section of the chimney with wool. However, as I wrote before, a cool chimney means much more soot that must be removed often because it will worsen the cug and threaten a fire.
  • #7
    jack63
    Level 43  
    William Bonawentura wrote:
    IMHO, the most sensible thing to do would be to strengthen the ground floor ceiling above the stove and from this height to build the shaft with light expanded clay bricks above the roof.
    William Bonawentura wrote:
    Inside, a steel pipe spaced with "whiskers". You cannot pass the exhaust pipe through wood or polystyrene without insulation with a material resistant to the high temperature of soot fire.

    Such hollow bricks are used for ceramic chimneys. The rest of my friend's link gas4 about it.
    It is dangerous to insert a steel pipe into this construction from a hollow block, even with a "mustache". The thermal expansion of steel pipe and hollow brick are very different. What's more, the temperature changes of the pipe and the block are incomparable.
    The expansion of the pipe in the direction of its axis, i.e. its "elongation", although greater, it usually does not hurt. The chimney will just come out higher up the ridge. :D
    However, expansion in the direction perpendicular to the axis, i.e. increasing its diameter, may be dangerous for the brittle brick. What this crack or more damage may lead to is difficult to predict, but it is better to prevent.
    The centering of the pipe in the hollow block should be very flexible. Depends what "mustache" did you mean?
    Such an unusual combination (block + steel pipe), like everything else, has its advantages and advantages.
    1. Risk of breakage. Look up.
    2. There is little chance of keeping heat in this thin and fairly well cooled pipe, so thrust fluctuations and increased risk of water dripping and tarring.
    3. Problems with sealing the pipe sections.
    4. For "stainless" steel pipes. Faster corrosion on the outside of the pipe and possibly faster than the inside if water condensation occurs.
    To counterbalance:
    1. Very good insulation from combustible elements of the structure.
    2. Ease of replacement / repair of damaged chimney elements.
    3. Slightly lower weight of the chimney which reduces the requirements for the structure supporting the chimney.
  • #8
    William Bonawentura
    Level 33  
    jack63 wrote:
    Depends what "mustache" did you mean?

    Goat stove connection. No chimney. What isolation
  • #9
    jack63
    Level 43  
    Good. I suppose it can also be used as a pipe connector?
    However, is it possible to remove a steel insert once inserted?
  • #10
    luczija88
    Level 9  
    I thought that I would put up a chimney made of these hollow bricks, but tell me if this chimney made of these hollow bricks has to have this ceramic pipe inside? He wants to reduce the costs. Do you know how to do it to make it good?
  • #11
    mirrzo

    Moderator on vacation ...
    Ceramic tube is the basis ... and no hassle.
  • #12
    jack63
    Level 43  
    luczija88 wrote:
    tell me if this chimney made of these hollow bricks must have this ceramic pipe inside

    Weird question. After all, you have the answer in two posts above.
    So that there is no ambiguity:
    The blocks are only a load-bearing structure! Something HAS to be put into them. No exhaust fumes can go through the hollow bricks! If glass is rubbed on the ass, there is a risk of fire or suffocation!
  • #13
    William Bonawentura
    Level 33  
    jack63 wrote:
    Good. I suppose it can also be used as a pipe connector?
    However, is it possible to remove a steel insert once inserted?


    The pipes are connected by sockets pressed at one end. The mustache is only for stabilization in the canal. If you would like to take the insert out (by the way, what for?), Then down through the carving in the boiler room.
  • #14
    jack63
    Level 43  
    William Bonawentura wrote:
    If you would like to take the cartridge out (by the way, what for?)

    A friend always scolds me that it is impossible to speak in parentheses: D
    There are various reasons why a pipe is pulled out.
    1. Something "missed" someone and the chimney is leaky. It happens. :cry:
    2. The pipe is damaged after some time due to various reasons. Eg Burned / deformed after cresolithic inflammation.
    If the pipe could be pulled out relatively easily, then such a chimney is "repairable".
    After the ceramic pipe has burst, the chimney can be demolished!
    Besides, not everyone has a basement to forge a chimney in it. The rest of the chimney at the bottom is also to be demolished.
  • #15
    luczija88
    Level 9  
    Gentlemen, maybe I ask strange questions but there is not much money and you need to heat up. It is a brick summer house on recreational plots, I do not know how long I will have it and I am not going to invest in it god knows how much. The most ordinary and the cheapest flue gas discharge, if the construction of a brick chimney with pipes or a system chimney amounted to 1000 PLN, I would have fun. Maybe I am combining and rethinking and I know that there should be a normal chimney with a hatch and other elements, but tell me if it will be very bad when: 1 I will leave the goat upstairs, I will give some 3.5 m of black heat-resistant pipe, I will pass insulated through the roof and put a roof there , or 2 I will go out above the top, about 2 meters of black heat-resistant pipe, then a 45 or 90 degree elbow with a hatch, I will go through an insulated double-walled wall and then a tee and a meter pipe made of stainless steel and I will be above the roof, there is a roof. Will the uninsulated pipe outside reduce the draft to such an extent that it will not burn? I realize that I will have a problem cleaning but I will do it through the goat. I see the People on the plots have the same thing with the uninsulated pipes outside the cottage.
  • #16
    brofran
    Level 39  
    luczija88 wrote:
    I will leave the goat upstairs, I will give some 3.5m of black heat-resistant pipe, I will go through the roof insulated and put a roof there


    Yes, do. With a friend it's similar to how he lights the stove, he smokes a little for 2 minutes, and when he takes it cool, it burns like this doll.
  • #17
    luczija88
    Level 9  
    Thanks, you cheered me up in some way :-) And say no problem with condensation, nothing goes directly to the goat? Well, I am also wondering if it is not too heavy a load for a small cast iron goat, the pipes weigh a little. And what would you say about the latter solution? Because I would rather than push through the roof, because there you don't know what to expect :-) I warmed it and it seems to me that a beam could stand in my way and then I would have to pass it, take it sideways :-)
  • #18
    brofran
    Level 39  
    luczija88 wrote:
    And say no problem with condensation, nothing goes directly to the goat

    What is going to go? Even if they fly, the condensate will evaporate in the goat's knee. Since the pipes will be too heavy, you can support them at the goat's exit, or catch them in two places along their length.
  • #19
    luczija88
    Level 9  
    And the second way to go outside the tee and a meter pipe, uninsulated, ordinary stainless steel? Will this severely weaken the thrust? There will be a meter and a half of non-insulated pipe outside and the flue gas will cool down and I don't know how it will work. Anyone doing something like this?
  • #20
    gaz4
    Level 33  
    If you do this with a tee, the string will be. But how are you going to clean it? Because even if the goat is not used too intensively, the soot will still be so. People who are not experienced in burning wood can block the chimney after a dozen or so several dozen times. That is why it is worth doing everything in such a way that keeping the chimney clean is easy. By going up, you can freely tilt the chimney from the vertical, it is important not to make sharp bends because there will be problems with cleaning. Without a cleanout, everything will fall into the goat, and in it it will probably get stuck on some structural element. Apart from the possible risk of igniting the leftovers, it will be difficult to clean the chimney without dirt in the house. You can, if necessary, try an intermediate solution without penetrating the roof with a 3 or better 4-segment segmented bend. Perhaps you can use it to pass through the wall with such a small angle that you can easily clean the entire chimney from above. It would be largely makeshift, but in my opinion it is better than a tee. When making a metal chimney, you should always take into account soot fire and its heating up to the ignition temperature of the wood. When deciding on metal pipes, you must make sure that there is as little soot in the chimney as possible and it runs away from flammable materials.
  • #21
    luczija88
    Level 9  
    I did in Pinta :) a drawing with two variants to illustrate how I see it. Say something of this maybe? Maybe some fixes? :) Or give it a rest, which means that I will have to put up an external chimney, which I really don't want. :(
    Goat stove connection. No chimney. What isolation
  • #22
    gaz4
    Level 33  
    Both variants will work in a similar way, but each has different drawbacks. The first with a vertical pipe is only a matter of safety. fire. In the second, there will be a critical inner elbow. As I wrote in the cold pipe running inside the house, soot will accumulate very much, and in the event of unskilful smoking (too little air, too low temperature, damp wood) it can happen very quickly. This elbow is the fastest. In addition, there is a multi-stage cleaning - from the top and on the elbow to the side and down, the first option is a chimney cleaner and after a shout ... Personally, I would do everything to make the chimney go without any bends, cheaper and easier to use. Once I made a piece of chimney out of fittings and was very pleased with the effect. I also had a long uninsulated pipe that quickly plugged with soot. Now you have to decide what you want to get and how much time you are willing to spend on cleaning. And whether you are able to predict the fire hazard, because this is probably the most important issue. Although no, it's still cool. A few years ago, there was a death accident in the neighborhood because of this: bad cug + tight house is a very dangerous combination. In the wood-burning stove the thrust was reversed and the carbon monoxide was entering the room instead of outside. The basic error was that the house was too tight. An unsealed window or a separate pipe supplying external air under the stove prevents such accidents.
  • #23
    luczija88
    Level 9  
    I decided to do the same as the latter, except that I would use a 45 degree bend. I will keep a close eye on what is happening. I am also going to add one ventilation in the room where the goat will be. I'm just wondering if it is possible and how not to connect three types of pipes? :)
  • #24
    gaz4
    Level 33  
    luczija88 wrote:
    I decided to do the same as the latter, except that I would use a 45 degree bend. I will keep a close eye on what is happening. I am also going to add one ventilation in the room where the goat will be. I'm just wondering if it is possible and how not to connect three types of pipes? :)


    Ventilation? If you are thinking of a typical air vent over the roof, it won't do anything. A goat or a fireplace creates ventilation by itself, it is enough to keep the damper open and the combustion air regulator. Instead, it is worth pulling down a pipe (even an ordinary sewage pipe) supplying air from outside to the goat / fireplace:

    1) Prevents reverse draft accidents making smoking cleaner and safer.
    2) The air needed for combustion will not be drawn through the room so unpleasant drafts will be avoided.
    3) If the air outlet from the outside is placed behind the fireplace / stove, it will be sucked up into the room and heated at the same time. The used air from the room where the goat is standing will be used for smoking. In this simple way, you will get something like a gravitational recuperator where the used air gives away some heat to the fresh through the walls of the goat and possibly pipes, and at the same time warm air from the room improves combustion.
  • #25
    mirrzo

    Moderator on vacation ...
    gaz4 wrote:
    luczija88 wrote:
    I decided to do the same as the latter, except that I would use a 45 degree bend. I will keep a close eye on what is happening. I am also going to add one ventilation in the room where the goat will be. I'm just wondering if it is possible and how not to connect three types of pipes? :)


    Ventilation? If you are thinking of a typical air vent over the roof, it won't do anything. A goat or a fireplace creates ventilation by itself, it is enough to keep the damper open and the combustion air regulator. Instead, it is worth pulling down a pipe (even an ordinary sewage pipe) supplying air from outside to the goat / fireplace:

    1) Prevents reverse draft accidents making smoking cleaner and safer.
    2) The air needed for combustion will not be drawn through the room so unpleasant drafts will be avoided.
    3) If the air outlet from the outside is placed behind the fireplace / stove, it will be sucked up into the room and heated at the same time. The used air from the room where the goat is standing will be used for smoking. In this simple way, you will get something like a gravitational recuperator where the used air gives away some heat to the fresh through the walls of the goat and possibly pipes, and at the same time warm air from the room improves combustion.


    What nonsense are you writing? Ventilation is absolutely necessary.
  • #26
    William Bonawentura
    Level 33  
    luczija88 wrote:
    I did in Pinta :) a drawing with two variants to illustrate how I see it. Say something of this maybe?


    I propose to draw on the second drawing a man who has to clean this chimney in winter with an icy roof. When deciding on such a location, you must also think about a safe ladder.
  • #27
    gaz4
    Level 33  
    mirrzo wrote:

    What nonsense are you writing? Ventilation is absolutely necessary.


    Absolutely? From the point of view of law or physics? About 10 m3 of air is required to burn 1 kg of coal. Consider two different configurations in a goat room / fireplace:

    1) Ventilation and lack of a pipe or a proper unsealing of the window
    2) No ventilation and an additional pipe with fresh air under the fireplace

    I am particularly concerned with the air circulation during smoking and the behavior of the goat in case of chimney obstruction. I spent practically all my life in rooms heated with stoves, and later with fireplaces, and I did not notice the positive effect of ventilation (which was not present in the case of stoves). Here, ventilation is a kind of helmet for a motorcyclist - if it hits a tree, it will not help anyway, but it increases the sense of security. Real safety comes when the KAZDE device is in good working order and works as intended. If, for example, the chimney is clogged and the stove is still burning coal, the smoke will be sucked in ... in my opinion through the ventilation and thus the entire room. The helmet will not protect the motorcyclist, but the regulations say otherwise ...

    I am a supporter of the thesis "Dura lex sed lex" that is hard law but law. If the regulations force us to do something, we either adjust to them or we assume ALL the consequences. Therefore, I am asking the readers to treat this and my previous post as pure theory and install everything that the prescriptions require. Ev. the consequences of my mistakes in the analysis of the process will be borne by you, not me !!!

    Moderated By mirrzo:

    All this argument is harmful. Please do not write similar content again.

  • #28
    gaz4
    Level 33  
    Mirrzo, it is a pity that you limited yourself to a warning (IMHO rightly so because in this topic you should be very careful) without writing anything else. I am happy to prove my point in a separate thread, about pure physics without any practical references. This way, no one will hurt themselves if anything in my analysis was wrong. So how - I can start a thread called "Theoretical behavior of ventilation in a room with a stove or solid fuel fireplace"?
  • #29
    mirrzo

    Moderator on vacation ...
    gaz4 wrote:
    I am happy to prove my point ...

    Yes, but only your point of view.
    gaz4 wrote:
    ... and possibly the behavior of a goat in the event of chimney obstruction. ... Real safety comes when the KAZDE device is in good working order and works as intended. If, for example, the chimney is clogged and the stove is still burning coal, the smoke will be sucked in ... in my opinion through the ventilation and thus the entire room.

    What do you think, with proper air supply to the room and efficient exhaust ventilation and an open chimney, the smoke will back up?
    So why fray your tongue in a new topic? But it is your will.
  • #30
    iosmo
    Level 1  
    Hello.
    I would like to heat my summer house with a goat-type stove and lead the exhaust fumes through a vertical chimney inside the building through the roof. What do you think about such a solution? Where could you buy such components of the chimney as in the photos in the attachments? Has anyone come across such solutions in Poland and is such a solution safe?