[Solved] Feasibility of Converting Inverter AC to Air/Water Heat Pump with Water Exchanger

What do you think about the possibility of converting Inverter air conditioning to an air / water heat pump by creating a water exchanger from an existing indoor unit?

So without interfering with the freon system, only the exchanger of the indoor unit is closed in the boiler and sealed, and the boiler is filled with water?

I doubt that freon is adapted to transport this amount of heat.

I mean, what do you mean because I don't understand who you're signaling. Since the system is factory, it transfers heat in the planned amount. Only water would take from the exchanger surface instead of air

Nobody will tell you anything?

szymon122 wrote:

I doubt that freon is adapted to transport this amount of heat.

I don't know what's going on either ...

aside, something should come of this if you have an understanding of refrigeration

What can he have if he wants to "without interfering with the freon system, we close the exchanger of the indoor unit in the boiler and seal it, and fill the boiler with water"?

it is rather a question whether he needs to know about refrigeration, rather not with this concept

on refrigeration maybe not necessarily, but physics, thermodynamics and mechanics ... and plumbing.
the easiest way is to replace one ext with a suitably long pipe placed in the boiler and it should work somehow. the matter of electronics.
Climate in the heat pump


in general, heat pumps are built on some type of heat exchanger intended for this purpose

good luck

What is the pressure in the gas circuit? Is it possible to connect, for example, an air conditioning cooler from a passenger car instead of an indoor unit?

The idea looks cool, and I think it will work. I wonder how long the aluminum exchanger will last when submerged in water. I think it is not adapted to such work

I read a little and
the split exchanger is based on R410a - this refrigerant has a high pressure of 20 bar.
automotive exchangers are usually R134 and there is less pressure so they may not withstand.

You can also buy plate heat exchangers or counter-flow heat exchangers - pipe in a pipe. The price of such an exchanger is about PLN 1500, so a lot.

The idea of immersing the evaporator splits in the boiler is the safest in terms of factor compatibility, pressure compliance. Risks are what you write that the exchanger will corrode and the gas pressure will go to heating (here it should be secured by a safety group). Well, how long will it last, because if, for example, 2 years, the skin is not worth a layette.
In addition, there is the problem of sealing the copper pipes in the boiler and welding it. The water circuit should also be pressurized to about 2atm (floor heating), drill a hole in the boiler, insert a pipe, seal it with some putty? it may not work for a long time.



http://www.chelchowski.pl/pliki/oferta/ODZYSK%20STOJI.bmp

I already have a KLIMA, but in any case, you still have to spend 1500 or 2000 on the exchanger (the so-called hydrobox). Well, it is not known whether it will be a success or a failure

So in the end it seems to me that despite the seemingly simple idea, it is still not very feasible.

Arbiter wrote:

The water circuit should also be pressurized to about 2atm (floor heating)

So I understand that freon is to heat the water that will circulate in the floor? I'm afraid there may be performance issues. If you count the heat losses on the pipes, the tank and the water circulation system, it may turn out to be thin ... I thought you wanted to heat the "washing" water.

http:// Sprzedajemy.pl/wezownica-miedziana-do-bojlera-i-kolektor-solarny-nr13177932

Like.

heat loss? there will probably not be such a problem there. In my opinion, it is more difficult to heat DHW than central heating, because DHW needs to be heated at least 50C and the floor in the most frosty 34 is enough, and since I will not heat the pump in frost, it will be enough supply temperature of about 32C which should give a favorable COP

There will always be losses before the heat gets where it should be. It all depends on what heating power this air conditioner is and what surface area to be heated. If the heating power of the device is within 2kW and the whole house is to be heated, I think that the game is not worth the candle ...

If the heating power is low, why combine with exchangers. In my opinion, in this case, it is better to use the heat pump as the manufacturer wanted, i.e. air / air.

The heating power is 5.3 kW and it is supposed to heat the whole house. Power is enough in the transition period.
floor heating is more comfortable than air which gives noise, heats unevenly and the heat is concentrated on the ceiling instead of on the ground. Ultimately, a warm floor is comfortable. And the floor evenly heats all rooms

one more idea of conversion - behind the split we put car coolers closed in a housing. Split air-conditioning blows on the coolers and heats the water there. So we have an air coupler. What do you think about it? Everything is built-up so that the wind blows through one unit into the other and returns to the first

you have to invest in a heat exchanger, it is impossible to insert the cooler from the air conditioning to the boiler so that it heats the water, unless you will mix the water with a stick in the boiler. There must be movement for heat exchange and it is as big as possible, The cheapest is to buy two pipes, put one into the other and you have an exchanger

it is not as you write ja9, because in a classic boiler you have a coil and nobody mixes with a stick and the water heats up. In addition, it is enough that the circulation pump will mix the water in the central heating circuit and there will be movement in the boiler

Arbiter wrote:

it is not as you write ja9, because in a classic boiler you have a coil and nobody mixes with a stick and the water heats up. In addition, it is enough that the circulation pump will mix the water in the central heating circuit and there will be movement in the boiler

the classic boiler does not work with refrigerants,
the classic boiler has a water coil, the water-water heat exchange is much better than in the case of the so-called freons,
with poor heat transfer, the spray pressure will increase significantly,
Unless you use a large condenser or evaporator as you call it

for example: I used to repair a chiller, I do not remember what power, but about 30 kW, as the exchanger had several dozen meters of pipe in the tank, it never achieved the parameters, although the water flowed through the tank. Only when the stirrer was added, the temperature was reached.

I made two heat pumps from air conditioners; one for water heating - a copper pipe exchanger in a 300l stainless steel boiler; the climate is Hitachi 3.5kW RAC-35WEC / RAK-35PEC; the second is a heat pump for CO from a 70l car gas cylinder; the coil is a copper pipe; air conditioning Daikin ATXB60CV1B / ARXB60CV1B; remote control; indoor unit temperature sensor changed from 10k to 22k for the boiler; for CO from 10k to 15k; in place of the engines of the indoor units, generators on the 555 were plugged in; I have air-conditioning convectors from the indoor units; in summer I was cooling the heat now; as for the sealing of the joints, there are copper compression fittings with inch or metric threads on sale; shops with pneumatics; I made a pipe exchanger from three pipe diameters, welded it, checked the tightness with nitrogen at 30 bar; took the longest allowable piping length for each air conditioner and immersed it in the liquid; I added the correct amount of refrigerant (calculated from the volume of the pipeline and the indoor unit); he has been taking the exam since February; hot water is about 3-5kWh a day, sometimes even less; CO depending on the outside temperature; in the CO exchanger I also have a 3f 6kW heater for large frosts; I control 3 heaters depending on the temperature on cheap W1209 thermostats from a well-known auction site; 9kW solar panel on the roof; the heater was turned on in March to support the climate in severe frosts; consumption for March according to the application my meter 786kWh; now will be test all winter because I put it all on in February; I suggest looking for similar topics on this forum; there are photos and diagrams;

Can you describe this PC to CO. Any pics?

a gas cylinder exchanger, specifically that of a forklift; cut-off bottom and in its place a welded flange connection DN 300; a copper heat exchanger is made on the flange of this joint; It consists of 15m of pipe fi 15, 20m of fi 12 and 25m of fi 8; ends brought to the flange and hard soldered; the beginning and end of the pipes are connected to the outdoor unit; charged with the refrigerant r 410a;
1 inch threaded connections for CO supply and return are made on the cylinder; in the middle of the flange, a 6kW heater is installed in the muff, a pump with controls and sensors is installed; it is a 70l CO buffer from which water is fed to the heaters; I did not post photos but tomorrow I will try to add;

Added after 14 [minutes]:

it is being assembled; it is this cylinder that is tightened to this flange and forms a buffer;

I'm waiting for more pics

If all these pipes form a condenser, then several siphons were created in which the condensed liquid will collect, thus limiting the exchange surface. The pipes had to be wound in such a way that all the liquid that would be condensed could flow freely and by gravity from the exchanger.
As it is now, one is a waste of copper, two is a waste of a factor, 3 is a waste of electricity.

"As it is now, one waste of copper, two waste of a factor, three waste of electricity."
hihi as it is now and the condenser is in the basement and it is at 0 level; that is, it is in such a big pocket; it still works; from yesterday from 3 pm to today until 4 pm consumption on the meter is 7kWh; by gravity nothing will flow here, it's not a sewage system;
the temperature in the house is controlled by the auraton, which switches the relay contacts with two thermistors connected; how the temperature drops below 23st. a 15k thermistor is turned on and the system starts working; as the temp exceeds 23.5st. the relay is turned off and the 6k thermistor is turned on, the circuit is in standby; the temperature of the water in the exchanger is regulated by the remote control; the heater is activated by the thermostat below -5 ° C in the case of system operation; individual thermostats and set hysteresis monitor the operation of the three heaters;
I do not recommend building an exchanger in this way;
it works for me; I'm not going to change;

I mean, you made a mistake and that mistake is yours, and so are all the waste things I mentioned earlier.
Now write what delta on the top source your PC is working with. Report the water temperature in and out of this "buffer" and the condensing pressure (HP) at this point.

I put photos for Janek1815; there will be no photos of the exchanger because it is wrapped in 15cm wool, just like the 300l boiler;
41.5 is the inlet gas temperature, 29.7 is the condenser outlet liquid temperature; buffer temp is 31.3; on the remote control set temperature 18st.

Added after 22 [minutes]:

unfortunately I will not measure the condensation pressure; temp difference input buffer output is now 1.6st;
the coil is rolled up to fit into the buffer; in a large tank, just like the 300l DHW tank, I have it rolled up differently; this condenser will work; the department in severe frosts, I did not fire the eco-pea stove from the moment the system was started; even if you say there are any losses, I have 7800kWh in my warehouse to use;

kol Kikis1, you've done a great job, congratulations, I just have a question, were you looking for a factory-made exchanger before trying to build it yourself? I would like to make a more or less similar solution to yours, air conditioning about 5-7kW for heating the house and hot water, but instead of the indoor unit, use a ready-made exchanger, e.g. as in this set: http://klima-sklep.pl/pompy-ciepla/13699 -chigo-ckrs-x60w3a-lh-heat-pump-with-split-exchanger.html
Actually, this pump would be sufficient (power, cop and price), but I am worried about quite a small operating temperature range, down to -7st only.

thumb wheel;
you can use a ready-made plate exchanger or a venom, the question of choosing the strength and exchange surface; however, it is later necessary to make a small container where you will place the heater; for me, I calculated the exchange area, related it to the permissible length of the air-conditioner pipeline and placed it in the tank where I installed a triple heater; I control the pump from this buffer and the temperature in the buffer is controlled by the setting on the air-conditioning remote control; compare indoor units of heat pumps and e.g. Nibe (https://www.nibe.pl/wiedza/schematy-polaczen/), Mitsubischi (https://www.mitsubishi-les.com/files/pl_me_ecodan.pdf) and others available on the internet; decide what is better; the pipe always has the strength specified in the catalog and the same in the exchangers; you have to choose the right one and this is also the right price;
as for the range of heating operation, I would not worry, you need to check if it has automatic defrosting and that's it; efficiency drops anyway as the temperature drops and then you have to use heaters (like me) or switch to another heat source

Added after 15 [minutes]:

in the case of a solution from your link, an additional pump must be used between the exchanger and the buffer; in my case, the exchanger is immediately a condenser, it is more efficient because the pump did not grind between the buffer and the exchanger where there are always losses; it all depends on your technical capabilities and resources to make the exchanger yourself; the solution as you plan is also good; less work;

Added after 8 [minutes]:

a is the count after one month of heating in the parameters described above;

I think I will decide on this chigo heat pump, as well as a set of PV panels about 5-6kWp. Through an application from the clean air program (it's time to get rid of eco-pea coal). So DIY will not be an option too much. It seems to me the most profitable investment.
As for the connection itself, in fact, you will still need a small "boiler" just behind the exchanger with a heater for what Kikis1, the question: does the temperature drop outside, the air conditioner works with a small COP, + the heater heats the house, or what only works on the heater?

And one more topic is interesting to me: if, however, when installing a split air-conditioning unit, it is possible to insert an additional exchanger in the gas connection circuit, so that when heating the hot medium first passes through the exchanger and heats the water system, while when cooling the cold one is first directed to the unit outside and cooled the rooms with air? Should it work as it seems to me?