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Maximum length of air conditioning installation

fuser 26454 37
This content has been translated flag-pl » flag-en View the original version here.
  • #1
    fuser
    Level 23  
    Hello.
    I need to connect a 12kBTU split.
    The set includes 3m of tubes, and I need approx. 6-7m.
    This is approximately the vertical distance between the units.
    Here are some questions:
    1. is the pre-charged refrigerant sufficient?
    2. is a single stage pump sufficient for "suction"?
    3. Are the connecting tubing "regular" copper tubing found at a retailer of such products?
    Thanks in advance for your help.
  • Helpful post
    #2
    ion-tichy
    Level 31  
    the maximum vertical and horizontal distances are given by the manufacturer of the device - but 6 -7 m for 12000BTU should not be a problem as well as the factor should be enough (standard is about 8m)
    A single-stage pump should do the trick. Copper pipes for purchase from refrigeration wholesalers. Cooling copper should be used (but this is not the case)
  • #3
    fuser
    Level 23  
    What is the difference between cooling and non-refrigerating copper?
  • #5
    fuser
    Level 23  
    I found out that the refrigerant pipes are drawn with synthetic oil and additionally cleaned, as the refrigerant, mixed with mineral oil, can damage the compressor.
    I have come across some additional information that I would like to confirm as I am not sure if the installers actually do this. Well:
    After laying the installation, it should be subjected to a leakage test with technical nitrogen (40 bar for 24 hours !!!). Then, after vacuuming, check after an hour if the pressure does not increase.
    Do the installers really check the tightness with nitrogen when installing a regular splice? However, is simple vacuuming enough to be sure that the air conditioning comes from 3-5 years?
  • Helpful post
    #6
    ion-tichy
    Level 31  
    Nitrogen is used to check cooling installations usually made on hard pipes with more fittings, nipples, etc. Connections are soldered - it should be checked and it is usually done this way. With a small or even large split, it does not matter so much because: the units undergo this test in the factory, the installation is on a soft pipe in one piece, the only connections are the sockets at the units. It is enough to check under negative pressure (vacuum) - of course, it is not forbidden to use nitrogen tests, but if we assume that the evaporator is tight (guaranteed by the manufacturer) the pipe has certain parameters (this is guaranteed by the manufacturer) the socket connection is correct, then the system should be tight.
  • #7
    fuser
    Level 23  
    You reassured me a little :)
  • #8
    fuser
    Level 23  
    ... but going back to the length of the mounting pipes, I found in the manual from ZIBRO:
    Maximum length of air conditioning installation

    which shows that for every meter of pipe over 5m you need to add 30g of coolant. So do you have to supplement or not?
  • #9
    GKVIDEO
    VIP Meritorious for electroda.pl
    Hello, do not fill in anything, wait until it is summer and the temperature is right, then the measurements on the manometers will tell you something if you have one. Good luck with the installation, best regards GKVIDEO
  • #10
    fuser
    Level 23  
    GKVIDEO wrote:
    Hello, do not fill anything up for now, wait until it is summer


    Cool :) , but my friend probably didn't read everything. I will only install the air conditioning and read that if the installation exceeds a certain length, you need to add the factor, but I do not know how :| You can buy it in a 750g disposable can and what's next?
  • #11
    ion-tichy
    Level 31  
    It cannot be bought in a box, so for about 2 years the refrigerant has been sold only in returnable packages (9-12 kg depending on pressure). Please do not make a tragedy out of it, please install and run the system. In case there is something wrong, you can always add the factor.
  • #13
    ion-tichy
    Level 31  
    If there are any, it means that these are stocks from before July 4, 2007
    In accordance with the European Union's F-gas Regulation, disposable cylinders have been withdrawn from trade - only those that entered the state of a given entity before the entry into force of these regulations are available for sale.

    And so expensive it somehow comes out - 410 somewhere around 40 PLN net / kg in 10 kg cylinders.
    which is probably why I never paid attention to such babies ;)
  • #14
    GKVIDEO
    VIP Meritorious for electroda.pl
    Hello, as for small packages with a factor, as my colleagues above, and I have not met either (maybe they are looking at the links you presented), and the air conditioner that my colleague wants to install is with what factor it works with because, for example, most market air conditioning is still supported by the old one, i.e. R407C, so it is cheaper (air conditioner) and thus more burdensome in operation and more energy-consuming. As for mounting, and so on the so-called You cannot add a factor of factor, because there is either too little or too much of it in the air conditioning, so it can only be determined after installing and checking the parameters, and here you need to have some practice, that's it for now, best regards GKVIDEO
  • #15
    fuser
    Level 23  
    I wanted to install ZIBRO S1233, because it has the option of heating with a winter set, and I would like to use it, because I only have fireplace heating. In the transitional period, when outside +5 to +10 degrees, the fireplace gives too much heat, and without it it is too cold.

    R410A refrigerant
  • #16
    ion-tichy
    Level 31  
    The winter set is unnecessary for heating - it is disconnected automatically when entering the heating mode. An ordinary 30W clamp heater on the compressor is enough.
  • #17
    fuser
    Level 23  
    :shocked!: and what is the winter set for? Turns off in heating mode ?! Sorry but I do not understand...
  • #18
    GKVIDEO
    VIP Meritorious for electroda.pl
    Hello, winter set (in my opinion it is a set of year-round operation), and it is used for air conditioning during cooling all year round. Such a set is used, for example, when installing air conditioning in a server room, best regards GKVIDEO.
  • #19
    fuser
    Level 23  
    During cooling, the outdoor unit is heated, and when it is heated, it is cooled, which at temperatures close to freezing and high humidity results in "production" of ice. I thought that the "winter kit" is a heater that counteracts this, or the function of automatic switching of circulation to cooling in order to defrost the compressor and the exchanger (but this is probably only in inverters).
  • #20
    GKVIDEO
    VIP Meritorious for electroda.pl
    Hello, again, it is more or less like you write with the fact that:
    Quote:
    possibly the function of automatic switching of circulation to cooling in order to defrost the compressor and exchanger (but this is probably only in inverters)

    is in every air conditioner with a heating function, the so-called defrost that causes defrosting of the condenser, you also need to remember that the heating function works correctly up to certain temperatures, then the efficiency of the air conditioner drops, best regards GKVIDEO
  • Helpful post
    #21
    wergilek
    Level 14  
    I read this topic and noticed that no one advised my colleague about the oil shelves. In vertical installation, there must be oil shelves. With a length of 6m, at least 2.
  • #22
    elkl
    Level 11  
    1. A more "pictorial" name is siphons. On the discharge one, you can "bind" and solder the elbows on the suction.
    2. Replenishment of the refrigerant only after return pressure measurements. Measurements should be made at min + 20 ° C
  • #23
    Improwizacja
    Level 11  
    At the outset, I will introduce myself:
    I helped with the installation of Air-conditioning, currently, I help in its sale, I do not know the regulations, so the company does not provide (possibly advertising is prohibited), while I trained with an air-conditioning installer who has more seniority than certain age people, which does not mean that he knows everything.
    Code:

    Witam
    Potrzebuję podłączyć splita 12kBTU. W komplecie jest 3m rurek, a mi potrzeba ok. 6-7m. Taka jest w przybliżeniu odległość w pionie między jednostkami. Tutaj kilka pytań:
    1. Czy wystarczy fabrycznie załadowanego czynnika ?
    2. Czy pompa jednostopniowa wystarczy do "odessania" ?
    3. Czy rurki połączeniowe to "zwykłe" miedziane rurki, które można nabyć w sklepie z takimi produktami ?
    .


    It is easy enough to 15+ meters, you can risk each meter weakening the device. I know that for some it sounds unreasonable, but one client requested such an assembly, I assumed that the air conditioning would not start, I hope that a skimpy ham has already been poured.

    You can weld tubes if you are just a few meters away.
    The problem is that the minimum quantity that comes out cheap is 25 meters and the cheapest wholesaler is probably in Warsaw. Normally the price is 300% higher in such shops. And the tubes are really expensive.

    I wrote again, not everything I write is perfectly professional

    The factor is always selected and checked with clocks that cost a little and you need to know how to do it when someone assumes in advance that the air conditioning at such and such a distance has as much as you need, then you enter a mistake. I would only risk in the case of self-assembly air conditioning, but it will be 200 PLN more expensive.
    Code:

    Do grzania zestaw zimowy jest niepotrzebny - rozłączany automatycznie w momencie wejścia w tryb grzania. Wystarczy zwykła grzałka opasowa 30W na sprężarce.


    It is not enough to have an adapted fan rotation speed.
    Incorrectly performed operation will significantly shorten the life of the device. You can invest, but the difference will be, that is, it is equal to the additional payment that the installer will take for the modification :) .

    Code:
    :shocked!: a do czego jest zestaw zimowy ? Wyłącza się w trybie grzania ?! Sorry, ale nie rozumiem...


    In fact, it is about the possibility of cooling down to -15 degrees.

    With this operation in negative temperatures, it is very differently better if the installer assembles the air conditioning from the beginning or puts his own brand on it, it will definitely be cheaper than the companyow

    Code:
    Chciałem założyć ZIBRO S1233, bo ma opcję grzania z zestawem zimowym, a ja bym z tego chętnie korzystał, bo mam ogrzewanie tylko kominkowe. W okresie przejściowym gdy na zewnątrz +5 do +10 stopni, to kominek daje za dużo ciepła, a bez niego jest za zimno.
    

    Czynnik R410A


    The business of life, as they say, the thrifty loses twice.
    I have to start cheating people too

    Code:
    Przeczytałem ten temat i zauważyłem że nikt nie doradził koledze o pułapkach olejowych .W montażu pionowym muszą być pułapki olejowe.Przy długości 6m minimum 2.POZDRAWIAM

    check with clocks check the device work properly change the plastic tube to alum pex give a small slant to the indoor unit + rubbers for the outdoor unit sometimes they are not there
    you also have to take into account sometimes a bender, a device for making collars, and for cutting tubes, let's not forget about clocks and a sensible pump, it will come time to buy everything cheaply, it guarantees that Allegro is not enough!
    And in order to handle certain gases you need to have a license.
    The same as with a current with certain properties.
    in addition, a decent SDS MAX drill costs PLN 2000
    In total, there are no decent books or courses for climate installers and the training can be hilarious.

    Has anyone in the store who sold the air-conditioning system told you that you would lose your WARRANTY even if it was for self-assembly, they will also not recognize your work.
    If the air conditioning installer does not perform the inspection once a year (which is an absolute minimum) you risk an asthma attack, not to mention that the equipment will not last. All in all, the inspections are simple, but let's take the risk ratio to the fact that you will 100% check the correct operation of the device without equipment and, more importantly, knowledge.


    And now you are being killed by the people who will press the air-conditioner and tell you that if you have fun, you will install it yourself, they probably have a good deal in it.
    1 0 warranty.
    2 repairs will earn more than on installation.
    3 the air conditioning is working incorrectly, the fault of the wrong installation, disassembly and re-installation, guarantees that the cost is higher than the equipment in question.

    That's not all, if you order an installation with air conditioning, you can charge 7% VAT for the whole thing.

    And perhaps the worst, the Air Conditioning Installer gets huge discounts when buying air conditioning, provided that you take over the warranty repairs ;)
    40-50% is the norm !!! and even 65% if they know that you are a proven seller. The problem is that no Installer Seller wants to repair a badly serviced and, what is worse, a badly installed air-conditioning unit, everyone will blame themselves for a change.

    In Polish law, you are entitled to only 12 months for complaints in which you must prove possible fault after 12 months for the next 12 months you will probably have to order an expert opinion.

    There is a long warranty for good air conditioning. But sometimes the equipment is not always guaranteed, but the repair has already been included.

    It is funny to give here the compressor from the company company x and we have no company. Decent companies often change the type of compressors and the only reason this equipment is mentioned is the fact that decent companies due to the stinginess of customers have to install something cheaper.

    If the X company were decent, it would definitely make a name for itself.
    Of course, there are devices that you probably have not heard of, these are brands known only for air conditioning, e.g. LENNOX MCQUAY

    Again, I prefer to have 2.5kW than 5kW than some companies.


    I mixed up a bit but I hope that I will convince a few people to think because, interestingly, you recommend branded refrigerators and air conditioning, eee ...
    1. There is no idea cheap KLIMA
    2. THERE IS NO KIND OF TAN INVERTER
    3. There is no idea how cheap to use air conditioning
    4. Energy-saving only if the air conditioning really has the specified power.
    5. The cheapest Air-conditioning is a duct, taking into account comfort, etc.
    6. Usually the air conditioning installer will get the equipment you want to mine much cheaper, you will get a full discount only if you install it.
    7. Air conditioners from brands you haven't heard of are loud 98% of the time.
    8. Installers of air-conditioning companies delete sharply.

    If someone wants to set up air conditioning in Warsaw, I can advise for free with a friend who professionally installs on this subject, of course, for free in his spare time, provided that he reports on the forum.

    The bad scenario we go along with is:

    We go to the air-conditioning company
    they put us in the air conditioning for 1800 GLANC GANY GANC
    it costs them PLN 500
    power is selected without reserve, we have to install air conditioning because of the attic
    and because we were stretched on air conditioning, we will get a great promotional messy assembly for 700 PLN
    Klima has aluminum tubes included :D
    well, unbearable noise, and since we do not use it, we do not need to maintain ...
    This ends up with an asthma attack, of course.
    After less than three years, the equipment breaks down.
    Even if we wanted a warranty repair, with this poor operation and cooling, we only want to get rid of the furniture.

    A good scenario is that we choose a good air conditioning where they sell almost and only good air conditioning :D in the end, what a man sells becomes so and the assembly will be quite a net 600-700 PLN
    and Klima is 10 years without failure after 10 years something spoils you but because the equipment is decent it will pay off to repair it :)


    I remind you I will gladly help with the installation for the report ;) of course you would have to find the time gap.

    And one more thing The air conditioning installation is relatively easy, it is much more difficult to repair it, replace the compressor, etc.
  • #24
    ion-tichy
    Level 31  
    To Improvisation - in short, what is your colleague talking about?
    Maybe a colleague was trying to read what he wrote above?
  • #25
    Improwizacja
    Level 11  
    Klime is best outsourced to professionals
  • #26
    fuser
    Level 23  
    I don't understand any of it either ... style of speech ...
    Anyway, it is best to entrust all this to specialists, but how to distinguish it from a fern and where to get money for everything in this sick country? Each specialist was also a newbie in the past, but the approach that "if you don't know, I won't tell you" will not make anyone a specialist.

    So far I have bought a split to the ground floor, a 12kBtu SANYO compressor including 3m (copper) tubes - all for PLN 950 with shipping. If the level difference between the units is 2m, do these traps also have to be made?
    There is nothing in the assembly manual about this. However, the method of assembly and "venting" without the use of tools is presented - that is, how to do it, but if someone wants, I can do a scan.
  • #27
    ion-tichy
    Level 31  
    With a difference of two meters and a total of 3 meters, you can skip oil traps. The very approach of the pipes to the angle valves is from the bottom, so it naturally creates a kind of siphon - the pipe from the bottom upwards creates an arc, it is worth paying attention to it - instead of cutting the pipe, you can make such a loop. For longer systems, and especially where the condenser (external) is higher than the internal, traps should be made. Although some brands take pride in the fact that in their latest designs, traps are not necessary (but mostly inverters).
  • #28
    fuser
    Level 23  
    Well, I also thought the traps were forming like the condenser above. I did not intend to cut the tubes, they are factory-ended with veils. Are SANYO compressors used in "more company" air conditioners?
  • #29
    firaiii
    Level 11  
    Hello everyone

    I am reading this article and I am admiring it, and in the refrigeration industry I have already worked a bit, so maybe I will correct it a bit:

    after 1 - the length of cooling pipelines, depending on the manufacturer and the power of the device, is always calculated at 10-15m (it is about the efficiency of the air-conditioning device) with splits of the Chinese type, the manufacturer gives 3-5 m (brand air conditioners have programmatic specification of height differences affecting the efficiency of the device)

    po2 - oil traps can be used in cooling devices such as chambers, large refrigerators where the demand is for power and low temperature (evaporation of the order of - 25-35 degrees C and a level difference of at least 4m (currently automatic de-oiling systems are used)

    Sanyo po3-compressors can be said to be an average shelf. (depending on whether the standard or the inverter).

    if anyone has any other questions related to air conditioning and cooling, please contact PW

    greetings
  • #30
    fuser
    Level 23  
    ion-tichy wrote:
    The very approach of the pipes to the angle valves is from the bottom, so it naturally creates a kind of siphon ...

    For me there is an approach from the top.

    Could someone describe in detail the bleeding procedure from the moment the pump is connected to the moment it is disconnected from the system, because I have already read different versions and got a little lost in all of this ...