Recuperation with cooling function - all suggestions to the heap

Hello,

Dear friends, I'm "hot" for recuperation with cooling function.
After going through a few fitters, a few designers and a few companies selling reku, I noticed a gigantic crossover of opinions on this subject.

The usable area of the house is about 130 m2, the total area is about 160 m2, it is a two-story middle segment.

The plan was to install a recuperator with a cooling function. It's not about making the house cool, but about some control over the temperature on hot days so that the house does not gain much temperature and feel a pleasant coolness inside.

And so ... we settled on the LMF Klima recuperator - HRH 5 version with a freon module for additional heating or cooling. And the steps began...

One says that such an installation will reduce the temperature in the house by maybe 5 ºC, another says that it can reduce the temperature, but then we have to install an installation with 2x higher flows to better receive heat (but then the concept of a heat exchanger in a recuperator or recovery loses its value because the exchanger cools down too quickly or heats up from the outside air).

Another theory is to install a recuperator with a standard flow but have a larger thrust than in an ordinary recuperator and then put larger diffusers to reduce any noise associated with increasing the thrust in the recuperator on the pipes and then leave the standard piping. Of course, everything on spiro insulated pipes (or at least the air intake to the house).


I know only 2 companies (COMPANIES) that have this device and they all praise that it works for them and fits and works well, but the recuperator works all the time at high draft (if not maximum), although one of the companies explains this by the fact that they just have it on the workshop part and want to get rid of dust.

What is your opinion?
Most installers say "sir, this will give you maybe 5 degrees C difference in temperature in the house and it will heat up through the windows more than it cools down".


Any suggestions are worth gold...

Links to recommended equipment, LMF Climate - HRH 5 and another link .


Regards

Added after 5 [minutes]:

PS: Most recuperative companies that install reku for the home do not want to install it at all as it is not a popular company like zechnder or tessra.

wic1 wrote:

I don't want to install it at all

There is nothing to be surprised about them, the additional profit is practically nonexistent and additional problems may result from it.

Come on, the efficiency of your ventilation is at the level of an air conditioner of 2.5-3.5 kW and such devices are installed in rooms of 20-40 m2. And for this ventilation would have to work at full capacity.

Hello
I understand, but the problem is not totally I have no way to consult with someone who has it. Nothing is known about customers whether it is enough or not (because I don't want my kids to get sick from different temperatures, so I don't push them towards the air conditioning).


Anyone have experience other than pure theory?


Regards

Hello,
Hello, a question came to my mind.

One of the recuperation companies suggested installing the recuperator in the attic instead of in the garage.

And I'm thinking, won't the recuperator crammed in the attic heat up together with the attic?
I mean a situation like summer, sun everywhere and ... the attic and the recuperator in it.

Regards!

Make sure you have good access. You need to replace the filters once or twice a year. It is good to clean up in the recuperator from time to time, wash and wipe the dust. When the service comes because your electronics, fan or anything else will be damaged, it's nice that it has free access. The choice is yours.

p.obelix wrote:

Make sure you have good access. You need to replace the filters once or twice a year. It is good to clean up in the recuperator from time to time, wash and wipe the dust. When the service comes because your electronics, fan or anything else will be damaged, it's nice that it has free access. The choice is yours.

holy right . I would also like to add that recuperators are made of sandwich panels insulated with foam, so they do not heat anything and do not heat themselves. The advantage of the installation in the attic is the easy installation of the intake and exhaust. Minus: If it is poorly insulated, it will lose heat on the installation and condensation. If it is poorly made.

Summary of the first stage after the analyzes and asking the fitters.

The cost of the project from PLN 200 to PLN 500 for a project on peflex panels.
From 500 to 2500k on spiro, insulated spiro, climavent and soundproofed square ducts.

Pipe installation.
OK 10k on peflex.
About 12-14k per spiro
OK 16-20k on insulated square and climavents
The location of air conditioning pipes, freon from 1000-2500 per point.

uh...
This comes out to, say, 20k for the channels alone, while I would have 18k with the recuperator ... it does not sound motivating.
Recuperator 13-15 + cooling module 2.5k is the upper about 18.5k
Assumption probably 1500 to 10000 PLN :/

For example, it will be PLN 40k in total :p


Inspections (mandatory) every six months...
from 200 - to 500 for a regular hand
from 500 - to 800 for a recuperator with cooling


I'm wondering myself whether to set up two cheap air conditioners for 10k, buy 4 air purifiers for 3k .... and ignore the topic? :P

I have no doubt that if I spend these 40k on soundproofed and thermally insulated ducts, it will work because on a good morning the cooling hand has a flow of 500m3/h while the standard handflow proposed by the company is 330m3/h ;P

But jizas... that price

wic1 wrote:

But jizas... that price

Unfortunately, this "small" detail breaks down many noble ideas.

Ok so the garage... There is access and noise is unlikely to be an issue.

Added after 1 [minutes]:

The only question is, does anyone know someone who has ventilation with heating / cooling?

Everyone always says that the effectiveness is mediocre, etc. and no one has it (probably because of the price).

Today I talked to a gentleman who supposedly has this recuperator with cooling, which I pinch myself about.

However, he has a different whim ... he wanted an exhaust and air supply in each room so that there would be no fun with undercutting / lifting the door.

He says that the hand is good, enough... he has a usable area of about 120m2 and has the option of setting the temperature on the hand and claims that if he sets 22, the wife still shouts that it's too cold.

He claims that it cools enough and air conditioning is unnecessary and the air circulation cools itself.

Only again it has supply and exhaust per room.


Another thing is that the company recommended that the exhausts should also be insulated so that they would not heat up in the environment (underfloor heating or other such) but only operate in the air.

I'm curious about another question...
Friends did so that they did not make an indentation and simply planted the door a bit higher (raised on hinges or something) leaving about 2 cm and not conspicuous, etc.

The question is will it be enough?

Hello. I deal with recuperation for 10 years, I'll say this. Recuperation is for air exchange, not for cooling, combining air conditioning with ventilation makes no sense, you won't feel this comfort. the output that I use for the recuperation installation separately, i.e. spiro pipes in the attic, two risers, pe flex pipes under the spout to supply the ground floor. I Split air conditioning in each room in the attic, plus one larger in the living room. I assume in the attic with this solution there is no additional resistance to the installation. Regards

Hello,

I have a recuperator with cooling function and...

Cools...
This summer it was +30 outside and up, it was very hot at the construction site.
When the building is heated (walls, floors, etc.), turning on the cooling function gives a poor effect because recuperation takes a long time to reduce the temperature of the cubic capacity despite working at 100%. It takes her a few H.

But .... if we turn it on in the cooling mode from the morning (to make sure that the house does not heat up), it cools as much as possible. At the time of 30+, it was about 24 degrees outside in the house and 20 degrees was felt because in this mode, the recuperation oscillated between 50 and 100% of the draft power, hence the airflow itself cooled down and caused a feeling of coolness. I used it to cool August and September, and now it heats the house. I have 21 degrees on the stove and on the recuperator. When the temperature drops below 21 degrees (I have problems with floor heating), the recuperator blows warm air. At -6 it was blowing 27 degrees. Can be? Can be...

Electricity consumption between August and December was about PLN 900. hand held in auto (temperature maintenance) mode non-stop. Only heating shares with a gas furnace and I note here that I did not test heating with 100% recuperation. When I have a photovoltaic, I'll be happy to check it out and try on it.

Hello everyone. I'm not a prophet, but I know what a hot topic will be in 5 years, help me, what to do, my air ducts stinks, as my friend said, something that is good for everything is good for nothing. Regards

SP7SEC wrote:

Hello everyone. I'm not a prophet, but I know what a hot topic will be in 5 years, help me, what to do, my air ducts stinks, as my friend said, something that is good for everything is good for nothing. Regards

1. once every few years, the channels should be cleaned
In addition, the channels are insulated, so no condensation should occur there
2. once a year the exchanger should be cleaned/rinsed (with a fungus cleaner)

That's it initially.
While the cost of flushing the exchanger is about PLN 300, unless it is much cheaper to do it yourself, cleaning recuperation does not look that bad, apparently

I saw a similar system at one of the clients (i.e. recuperator with air conditioning) and after a year of use I ended up replacing it with a smaller one + adding splits. The air conditioning in the recuperator gave something only when it went to the max, but then the cooling recovery was really poor, again when it was running at low speed, it recovered something, but the cooling had a ridiculous efficiency. In addition, the electricity consumption was higher than today with several splits in several rooms.
A possible compromise would be a bypass where the ducted air conditioning would operate in a closed circuit inside the house and I have also seen such installations (but in industrial facilities), but there the supply and exhaust ducts were calculated for around 10,000 m3/h and more.

SP7SEC wrote:

I'm not a prophet, but I know what will be a hot topic in 5 years, help what to do, my air ducts smell

Nothing will stink, because the air conditioning dries the air quite strongly, and without moisture, nothing will stink.

Endrju111 wrote:

I saw a similar system at one of the clients (i.e. recuperator with air conditioning) and after a year of use, I ended up replacing it with a smaller one + adding splits. The air conditioning in the recuperator gave something only when it went to the max, but then the cooling recovery was really poor, again when it was running at low speed, it recovered something, but the cooling efficiency was ridiculous. In addition, the electricity consumption was higher than today with several splits in several rooms.
A possible compromise would be a bypass where the ducted air conditioning would operate in a closed circuit inside the house and I have also seen such installations (but in industrial facilities), but there the supply and exhaust ducts were calculated for around 10,000 m3/h and more.

SP7SEC wrote:

I'm not a prophet, but I know what will be a hot topic in 5 years, help what to do, my air ducts smell

Nothing will stink, because the air conditioning dries the air quite strongly, and without moisture, nothing will stink.

As I mentioned, total cost electricity last year (construction + flat from August, for the whole house + reku) it came out to PLN 1000 ... (1200 kWh) We'll see next year because currently the stove heats up to 21 and the recuperation increases by 1 degree and has not yet exceeded the second gear and 99% is on the first. It only blows warmer air than cold air.

I'm not complaining but the cost of gas is still a killer.

recuperation, as a physical phenomenon, is not possible in Poland. Don't waste your time and money.

Could you expand on the topic?

for recuperation, as a physical phenomenon, there is a necessary temperature difference in the street and in the room of at least 40 degrees Celsius. In this case, the air entering the room will have a temperature of about 10 degrees. In the coldest places in Poland, such conditions occur at most one day a year. This means that recuperation in Poland, at best, saves a few pennies on one day a year.

Recuperation as a physical phenomenon is the recovery of energy that would otherwise be wasted. In the subject of ventilation, recuperation is any recovery of energy from the used air in order to heat the supplied air. Nowhere in the definition did I find the need for such a large temperature difference. Current exchangers have the ability to recover around 80% of heat (about 65-70% of energy due to the difference in humidity) also at a small temperature difference. Even more, with very large temperature differences (i.e. very low external temperatures), unfavorable phenomena occur (large condensation, freezing, etc.) which limit energy recovery or significantly reduce efficiency.
of course, you can't believe what device manufacturers provide in folders (sometimes they promise 80% savings on heating), but from my own observation, no problem (compared to efficient ventilation without recovery) 1/3 and more savings on heating is a real value.

Endrju111 wrote:

Nowhere in the definition did I find the need for such a large temperature difference.

the temperature difference is due to the fact that the incoming and outgoing air is separated by a barrier. The materials and construction used in conventional heat exchangers do not allow heat exchange to start at moderate temperature differences. Perhaps, sometime in the future, this difference will be reduced below 30 degrees.

Quote:

Current heat exchangers have the ability to recover around 80% of heat

the laws of physics prohibit the recovery of more than 45% of heat. The best recuperators recover about 35% of the heat in the Swedish climate.

Witalian wrote:

the laws of physics prohibit the recovery of more than 45% of heat.

what law prohibits it? You're probably thinking of a single recovery membrane all the time, but note that with 2 stages of recovery, the second stage will recover another half of what's left. By multiplying the degrees, we gradually come to the construction of a counter-current exchanger, where theoretically it could recover 100%, but the losses and the limit of permeability limit its recovery to about 86% of the temperature difference (hence, at 0 outside and 21 inside, we blow fresh air into the rooms at a temperature of around 18 degrees Of course, energy recovery is slightly lower (because dry air is easier to heat), but still well above 45%.

Witalian wrote:

recuperation, as a physical phenomenon, is not possible in Poland. Don't waste your time and money.

Hello,

Basically, I just wanted to 'confirm' that the device which is a recuperator with a freon exchanger gives the effect of heating or cooling the intake air, which in turn gives the target cooling / heating of the house on the occasion of ventilation. I omit the issue of the efficiency of the exchanger because, despite the laboratory conditions and promises of manufacturers, it is different mine is supposed to be 80-86% effective (probably a copper exchanger).

I meant the fact that with this equipment you can cool down or warm up and it's not 'only' 5 degrees.
The area of my house is about 160 m2 or 170 m2 counting on the floor (sloping attic). So for someone with photovoltaics, there is the possibility of economical heating or cooling. Would the device do its job as a stand-alone heater? I'll test it sometime.

I have floor installation everywhere, so some discomfort would be the fact that the vestibule only 'sucks' the air out, just like a bathroom. So the floor and walls would just be cold. For verification however, as a heating system that gives more comfort, I confirm its effectiveness.


Regards!

I have a question whether recuperation Ursinus is actually so cost-effective? Do you pay less for heating?

Witalian wrote:

so that recuperation, as a physical phenomenon,

Recuperation or recovery is not a physical phenomenon in itself. However, it "uses" several physical phenomena. Heat recovery is also a technique (marketers call it technology) leading to more economical use of energy.

Witalian wrote:

temperature difference on the street and in the room of at least 40 degrees Celsius is needed.

Complete nonsense.
Depending on the exchanger, just a few Kelvin is enough. However, "saving" on the exchange surface leads to the need to increase the temperature difference at the same power.

Witalian wrote:

the laws of physics prohibit the recovery of more than 45% of heat.

Another nonsense. The laws of physics do not prohibit anything! However, under certain conditions, the amount of energy recovered must decrease. This barrier is the "phenomenon" of water freezing.

Hello everyone.

I'd like to refresh the topic a bit, because as far as I can see, I have a recuperation system in the configuration mentioned here.

The whole thing is about 80 percent complete, but it's already working.

The system is installed in an uninsulated non-utility attic, i.e. a cold zone, which is quite a problem that I think I have successfully solved.

Behind the air intake, which is on the north-west side and enters the building, is a glycol chiller connected to two loops of PE40 pipe, each 180m long. The loops are buried in the ground at a depth of about 2.3m, about 2.5m apart.

This pipe (spiro 200) then enters the recuperator. From the recuperator it goes to the recirculation fan and onto the freon heater/cooler. From here, it is already a straight path via distribution and plenum boxes to the individual rooms.

The exhaust of used air is carried out in two ways, depending on how the entire system works. In the first case, all the used air moves into the recuperator and is ejected outside. This is the standard operation of recuperation. In the second case, when heating or cooling is switched on, some of the air from the less 'dirty' rooms, such as dressing rooms and passageways, is returned to the fresh air supply before the freon exchanger and recirculation fan and is further reheated or cooled. The reason for this procedure is quite simple. In a cooling situation, it is much more efficient to cool the air at domestic temperature than from outside the building where it is hot. The analogy is the same in a reheating situation. It is easier to reheat air at 19 degrees instead of cold air from outside.

I am sending some diagrams. If anyone is still interested in the topic, please write. I have some interesting insights to share myself. I also have quite extensive photo documentation. Unfortunately, prior to the actual build, I have not found enough information (I mean people who own something like this and can realistically tell you about its pros and cons) on the subject, so in a way I have to cut corners. That being said, I am happy to answer questions. I have a few myself, maybe someone can help me or suggest something.

Greetings
.

Hello,
I'm planning to modify my ventilation system a bit and, like the previous speaker, I'm going to install a duct cooler on the reek outlet duct.
The chiller will be fed by the underfloor water from the passive cooling of the heat pump. I don't expect a great effect, but if I can at least slightly dehumidify/cool the air, I will be satisfied. The cost of such an installation is negligible.
In addition, in winter the exhaust air from the reek will be reheated when the underfloor is running.
In the worst case, the modification can be dismantled .

>>21464291 I was asking about a similar configuration in order to use the pump for both heating and cooling in summer and not to duplicate chillers. As far as I am aware, so expertly in this case there should be a buffer for the chilled water that the heat pump will cool. The performance of your set-up may be limited not so much by power and capacity, but by the problem of condensation when going down to low temperatures. It would probably be a good idea to isolate the circuit for heating from that radiator, because when you let cold water run over the underfloor heating manifolds, it will start to condense water on them. I'm thinking to myself that for cooling, it would be a good idea to install the radiator behind the recuperator, on the house side. On the other hand, in winter it would be good to have this kit in front of the recuperator on the air intake side. It would then replace the electric heater. In my case, I'm assuming switching on the A/C kit for heating around the bivalent temperature, so as to reduce or eliminate switching on the heat pump heater at low temperatures. In summer, the default option will be the GWC switched on, I think, somewhere around 22 degrees Celsius inside and the air conditioning alone in case the GWC is not enough and the temperature rises closer to, say, 24 degrees Celsius. We'll see how this works out in practice. Regards

I use such a recuperator, even two. And I think you are creating artificial problems.
The units cool the air in hot summers and reheat it in winters. The efficiency of the system is high (as in a heat pump), so the heat loss is low. Electricity flows, of course, but gas would flow without it.
The recuperators are installed in the insulated loft, because it's crazy to pull air from roof level to the ground floor and then pump it back up to the ground floor. I don't use any spiro pipes because that's crap that inhibits flow and makes noise. I don't have any pipes sunk into the ceiling because it's also non-serviceable crap, plus it has small cross sections (again, noise).
I don't have a pre-heater for freezing temperatures, because this is the kind of recuperator that copes with Polish temperatures without a re-heater.
The units stand on decent vibration isolators and cannot be heard at all. There are normal drainage pipes for the condensate, already designed at the building stage.
No additional inventions or combinations, simply everything is designed as it should be, with the right cross-sections, insulated where necessary, and everything is demountable.