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Construct a Simple Magnetic Motor: Win PLN 1000 Reward for Working Device - Piotrek from Łódź

Piotrek_kertoip 7215 28
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Treść została przetłumaczona polish » english Zobacz oryginalną wersję tematu
  • #1 16271192
    Piotrek_kertoip
    Level 1  
    I am looking for people who can construct such a simple motor that works on the principle of magnetism. For constructing such an engine, I am offering a reward of PLN 1,000, which I will pay after presenting the working device.

    Attached is a video showing the engine that interests me.
    youtube.com/watch?v=jiAhiu6UqXQ&t=46s

    Best regards, Piotrek from Łódź.

    If you have questions:
    Write to: piotrek.kertoip.mail(_at_)gmail.com
    Or
    Call: +48 576 017 806

    Moderated By Madrik:

    Please post in accordance with the section rules:
    https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic3702540.html

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  • #2 16271243
    helmud7543
    Level 43  
    According to the principle of conservation of energy, this cannot work. I cheat on me.
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  • #3 16271300
    Stefan_2000
    Level 19  
    And what do you think about something like this:



    Also fake?
  • #4 16271301
    nici
    Moderator Chiptuning
    Right, it's fake by big F, like most movies of this type
  • #5 16274619
    zdziwiony
    Level 27  
    This thermomagnetic motor should work.
  • #6 16274965
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
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  • #7 16275798
    Madrik
    moderator of Robotics
    Motors operating on the basis of magnetism are hopeless.
    First of all, they are very weak and inefficient, secondly they run out of fuel, which are ... magnets. A lot of energy is used to make magnets. As they work, the magnets demagnetize, losing this energy, but not all.

    The cost of producing such an engine is many times greater than the work received.
  • #8 16277284
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
  • #9 16277328
    Madrik
    moderator of Robotics
    But the very essence of a magnetic motor is that it is based on the strength of magnets.

    Every engine needs energy to work. How will you deliver it to him?
    Where does this engine take energy to work from? He only takes it from magnets. And because the energy in the magnets is limited, the effects quickly disappear as they are received. There is no miracle. they work nicely "empty", without load, because the resistance to movement is minimal. As a result, the work lasts a long time. But with a load - they either have no strength to move or they wear out quickly.

    Magnetic motors have been known for years. And unfortunately they are just a scientific curiosity without practical application. If they had, they would have found them somewhere. And for now they are mainly used to attract attention on the Internet.

    Stirling engines are already more promising. At least there the heat source is the heat supplied. And there are many sources of heat. It can be combined with solar, geothermal or radioactive isotopes.
  • #10 16277339
    Krzysztof Kamienski
    Level 43  
    Madrik wrote:
    Magnetic motors have been known for years. And unfortunately they are just a scientific curiosity without practical application.
    ..Okay, Madriku, but can you give an example of such a "toy"? As I noticed, various Chinese twirls, watches or other bimbadełki on the desk, battery powered, and work on the principle - battery, coil and as a switch, e.g. Hall sensor I haven't met never something, it would even move (rotate) by itself, that is, perform even minimal work, only thanks to the energy stored in the magnets.
  • #11 16278196
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
  • #12 20712242
    Jack80dev
    Level 12  
    Madrik wrote:
    Magnetic motors have been known for years. And unfortunately, they are only a scientific curiosity with no practical application.
    I would like to ask for recommendations for such an engine - preferably for >1 type (different structure).
    I thought that almost everyone here on Elektroda thinks that magnetic motors have no right to exist, because
    * it would be supposedly perpetual motion machine ,
    * they would break the principle of conservation of energy (ZZE),
    * work done by the magnetic field in a closed path = 0,
    * their motion stops at the first point of balance of magnetic field forces encountered,
    * etc.,
    and anyone who tries to create such a thing (I count myself among them) is crazy or at least ignorant. Meanwhile, I came across flower in the form of a quoted statement by user @Madrik 🧐🤪
  • #13 20712510
    zdziwiony
    Level 27  
    Of course you can make a magnetic motor. For example, yes. We insert a "charged" magnet into the engine, the magnet attracts an armature that can do some work. The magnet will demagnetize after some time and we can repeat the entire cycle. And tick two points, because that's how much this idea is worth.
  • #14 20712933
    Jack80dev
    Level 12  
    I seriously asked for directions. Since @Madrik wrote that magnetic motors have been known for a long time (i.e. they exist), I would like to see at least a few in action.

    Madrik wrote:
    Where is this engine supposed to get the energy to work? It takes it only from magnets. And because the energy in magnets is limited, the effects quickly disappear as it is received.
    Do you think that the energy used by the magnetic motor is the energy that was "pressed" into the magnet during its magnetization?
  • #15 20713260
    Madrik
    moderator of Robotics
    Jack80dev wrote:

    I thought that almost everyone here on Elektroda thinks that magnetic motors have no right to exist, because
    * it would be supposedly perpetual motion machine ,


    - They wouldn't be... Once you understand how a magnet works and why it works, you'll see why we have an ordinary engine here.

    Jack80dev wrote:

    * they would break the principle of conservation of energy (ZZE),


    NO. We claim that they will act on it. Therefore, they will only generate as much energy as was put into them. And surprisingly, the amount of energy contained in a magnet can be calculated very easily. It is also known more or less when a working magnet will give it up and lose its properties. And since we know how much energy has been put into them, we cannot expect them to produce more energy or start generating new energy.

    Jack80dev wrote:

    * work done by the magnetic field in a closed path = 0,
    * their motion stops at the first point of balance of magnetic field forces encountered,


    Every operation of the engine, including the magnetic one, is lossy work. Texts such as "efficiency over 300%" are just fairy tales or result from not taking into account all the elements in the energy equation of such an engine.

    Jack80dev wrote:

    and anyone who tries to create such a thing (I count myself among them) is crazy or at least ignorant.


    The one who tries to create them - no. The same teaching aid as other demonstrators of physical phenomena. In this case, using the asymmetry of the magnetic field to obtain motion.

    It is foolish to believe that you will get more energy from such a structure than it generates.

    Jack80dev wrote:

    Meanwhile, I came across flower in the form of a quoted statement by user @Madrik 🧐🤪


    Do you think that the magnetic engine gets mysteriously additional fuel and energy "from somewhere"?

    Even a magnet has a limited capacity to perform work and will not exceed it. It is not eternal and there is no magic in it.
    Therefore, we do not use magnetism as a source of work, but we use electromagnetism, where magnetism allows the TRANSFER of electrical energy into mechanical energy, and the main source of energy is electrical energy, not magnetic energy.

    And the magnetic energy is simply stored in the magnet.
    In a certain amount, depending on the material and dimensions of the magnet, with a well-known level of wear resulting from the work performed by the magnetic field. It is a long and slow process, but it is limited in time.
    But if you start forcing the magnet to work harder, the energy will run out much faster.
  • #16 20713315
    Jack80dev
    Level 12  
    Madrik wrote:
    But if you start forcing the magnet to work harder, the energy will run out much faster.
    How can you make a magnet work harder? What do you mean?
    I would like to avoid this in my engine.

    @Madrik can you give me some directions for working magnetic motors?

    Added after 2 [hours] 13 [minutes]:

    Madrik wrote:
    It is also known more or less when a working magnet will give it up and lose its properties.
    Please tell me this knowledge, because I don't have it.
  • #17 20715137
    Jack80dev
    Level 12  
    Madrik wrote:
    Are you of the opinion that a magnetic motor gets mysteriously extra fuel and energy "from somewhere"?
    No. I am of the opinion that magnetic motors are driven by interaction forces between the rotor and stator magnets. These forces disappear very slowly, in proportion to the demagnetization of the magnets. So I think it is possible to get more energy out of a magnetic motor than what is in the magnets and externalized by the presence of a magnetic field. I don't yet know how the RES is not broken here, but it certainly isn't.
  • #18 20715183
    Krzysztof Kamienski
    Level 43  
    Jack80dev wrote:
    So I think that from the magnetic motor it is possible to get more energy than that being in the magnets and externalized by the presence of a magnetic field
    But nonsense ! Read yourself. Hypothetically you take out the energy from the magnets that was put there in the process of their production, i.e. magnetization, and then what ? What kind of RES ? From the magnetic field of the moon ?
  • #19 20716363
    Madrik
    moderator of Robotics
    Jack80dev wrote:

    Madrik wrote:
    It is also known, more or less, when the working magnet will give it up and lose its properties.
    Disclose this knowledge to me, please, for I do not have it.


    Sit down, therefore, wanderer, in front of my hermitage, and learn the secret hidden from the eyes of the little ones, somewhere in the middle of a physics textbook for grade 7 of elementary school, where few look, and of those who do look, only a select few have the courage to penetrate the runes of magical patterns and discover the truth about the world.

    The strongest artificial magnet (because the natural one is weaker) contains up to about 342 kJ/m3 of energy (there are slightly weaker ones - depends on the material and workmanship - maybe there are stronger experimental ones or something like that, let's assume some average at this level).
    As you add time to this, you get the value of the power that can be extracted from a magnet, in watts. To spare your weary mind the unpleasantness of science, that would be about 0.026 W/s. Or 0.095 kWh.
    A truly impressive value. In each m3
    If you wanted to build a magnetic motor of 0.95kW, running for an hour, you would need 10 m3 of the world's strongest magnets.

    Because a m3 is a million cm3, then in each cm3 of a magnet (I understand that you have already received the honor of learning the knowledge of calculating the volume of cuboidal solids), you have exactly 0.342 J of energy. Or 0.000000026 W/s

    Because they naturally lose 1% of energy per year, the average magnet works about 100 years, but after about 50-odd it already loses a significant part of its properties. This is under natural conditions - so at some point the refrigerator magnet will fall off.

    Unfortunately. This action can be accelerated, for example, before raising the temperature, which happens when the magnetic field of the magnet begins to do the work.
    Already 40°C raises the rate of energy loss to 11%.

    Beyond a certain temperature, 100% degradation of the magnet occurs and it completely loses its properties. For a neodymium magnet, it's about 90°C and we say bye bye.

    And unfortunately, the lost energy can not be recovered other than by re-magnetization in an artificial magnetic field, thus by providing additional energy.

    And what are magnets good at?

    Maintaining a magnetic field hardly consumes their energy.
    You can therefore use them, for example, to create low-resistance magnetic bearings or shock absorbers.

    And truth be told, most so-called "magnetic motors" are actually rotating low-resistance structures that, once given speed, rotate for a very long time with little loss of speed (which gives the impression that it is the magnets that drive them), but any attempt to apply a load to such a structure and take away the mechanical energy, causes the whole structure to stop.
    And this is not surprising if we know how little energy is in this system and how little is used of it per unit of time.

    This is why we do not have "magnetic" motors, but "electromagnetic" motors, where the magnetic field allows the transfer of electrical energy into mechanical energy, and it is the electrical energy that is responsible for doing the work, not the magnetic field itself.

    Do you feel a touch of the wisdom of the universe after I have revealed to you this secret knowledge, engraved with a stylus in the eternal tabletop of the classroom bench, with the magical runes of mathematics?


    Yes or no, you have rested, pick up your backpack and go preach new wisdom to the world.
    And when you meet someone who does not have this knowledge, as I do, feel obliged to share this knowledge.
  • #20 20716460
    Jack80dev
    Level 12  
    Thanks for the answer :D
    I have an additional question: when does the magnet do the work?

    Will you provide some YT links to the magnetic motors you wrote about that "have been known for years"?

    PS. I guess it would be appropriate to move the topic to another section.
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  • #21 20720331
    Jack80dev
    Level 12  
    Madrik wrote:
    Jack80dev wrote:
    And anyone attempting to create such a thing (I count myself among them), is out of his mind or at least ignorant.
    Those who try to create them - do not. The same teaching aid as other demonstrators of physical phenomena. In this case, the use of magnetic field asymmetry to achieve motion.
    @Madrik can I ask you for some example of a magn. motor using magnetic field asymmetry? I would like to see what you had in mind.

    Would you also like to answer this?
    Jack80dev wrote:
    I have an additional question: when does the magnet do the work?
    .
  • #22 20785350
    Jack80dev
    Level 12  
    Jack80dev wrote:
    @Madrik can you give me some directions for working magnetic motors?
    @Madrik, how long are you going to make us wait?
  • #23 21398441
    Jack80dev
    Level 12  
    @Madrik, could you please break your silence and finally answer the questions raised over a year ago?
  • #24 21403334
    Madrik
    moderator of Robotics
    I'm sorry, but I'm not a butler on call.

    Since you waited a year for an answer instead of looking for the information, it means that the information is not relevant to you.
    And also curiosity is not that great if you don't look for the answer yourself, but prefer to wait.

    Examples include all kinds of "levitating" magnetic toys.

    And when does a magnet do work? When you receive energy from the magnetic field.
    A magnet is not a magical object. It does not contain magic, only accumulated energy in the form of a finite number of, unidirectionally ordered dipoles. And in order to achieve this, you had to put in a certain amount of energy and 'force' them to do so.
    If you change the ordering of the dipoles - you take away the energy and the magnetic field weakens. As the dipoles arrange themselves chaotically, the resultant of their common magnetic field will drop to zero and the effect will disappear.
    Every time something interacts with the magnetic field of a magnet, it gradually changes the direction of the individual dipoles.
    The more they fall out of their common, main alignment direction, it weakens the overall field.
    This is why temperature has such a degenerative effect on magnets, Temperature is simply providing the dipoles with extra energy to help them return to their natural position.

    I won't provide links at the moment because I don't have the time to sit and wade through hundreds of YT videos bordering on paranoia to find ones that might interest you. As I see it, you have the time, since you'd rather wait than search.
    During that year, you could also build any magnetic motor yourself and quietly and see for yourself what it can do.

    And why, even in toy applications, however, one chooses more often those on the electromagnetic principle rather than purely magnetic.
  • #25 21418880
    Jack80dev
    Level 12  
    Thanks for your reply.
    Madrik wrote:
    Sorry, but I'm not a butler on call.
    I know you're not - no need to apologise.
    Madrik wrote:
    Since you've waited a year for an answer instead of seeking information, it means it's not relevant information for you.
    And also curiosity not so great, since you don't look for the answer yourself, but prefer to wait.
    I didn't know what you meant, so looking was pointless.
    Madrik wrote:
    During that year, you could also build any magnetic motor yourself and quietly see what it could do.
    I am fortunately not on unemployment to have that much time to design and build. I keep designing and again I am even more convinced that this time it will work.
  • #26 21419311
    Madrik
    moderator of Robotics
    And design, design... I wish you the best of luck.
    It will always be an interesting teaching aid for physics lessons.
    Even if it doesn't work. It will teach someone something relevant.

    You even have an example of such a construction from a fairly well-known source here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_motor

    Enjoy.
  • #27 21420252
    Jack80dev
    Level 12  
    Madrik wrote:
    And design, design.... I wish you the best of luck.
    You wrote that with sarcasm, but nevertheless.... thanks.
    Quote:
    You even have an example of such a design from a fairly well-known source here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_motor
    There you can easily see that it won't work, because with each rotation you have to overcome 2 times the attractive force between the magnets used.
    My SM will have no such shortcomings.
  • #28 21420385
    Krzysztof Kamienski
    Level 43  
    Jack80dev wrote:
    My SM will have no such shortcomings.
    Certainly, because it will be driven by the willpower of the Troll.
  • #29 21420419
    Madrik
    moderator of Robotics
    You have an explanation in the text that the law of conservation of energy is repeatedly ignored in these projects.

    If you realise what we have already written, that a magnet is not magic, that it has its limitations, that it does not produce forces "for free", that it degrades gradually by giving up its energy, you will quickly come to the conclusion why, apart from the demonstration of the principle of operation, there is no way to build such a useful propulsion structure. Because there is simply nothing to take this energy from.

    This is why elecromagnetic motors are commonly used, because a large amount of energy can be fed into the magnetic system in this way, which can be used to propel something, once it has been converted into mechanical energy.

    Currently, we can build engines based on fossil fuels - concentrated energy in the fuel.
    O Electricity - easy to obtain, convenient to use, easily transformed.
    Nuclear energy from particle decay or fusion (this is still being worked on).

    Everything else is not as effective, efficient and cost-effective.
    And nothing can break the law of conservation of energy.

Topic summary

The discussion revolves around the feasibility of constructing a simple magnetic motor, as proposed by Piotrek from Łódź, who offers a reward for a working device. Participants express skepticism regarding the practicality of magnetic motors, citing the principles of conservation of energy and the limitations of magnets, which lose their effectiveness over time. Some contributors mention that while magnetic motors are theoretically possible, they are often viewed as scientific curiosities rather than viable solutions. The conversation includes references to thermomagnetic motors and Stirling engines as more promising alternatives. There is a call for examples of existing magnetic motors and discussions about the energy dynamics involved in their operation.
Summary generated by the language model.
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