Incorrect Operation of BZ-3 Protection & Phase Indicator LK-713 with FF and Hager Switchboards

In the already closed story, colleague Łukasz-O described an example of incorrect operation of the BZ-3 security and LK-713 lamps.


By connecting BZ-3 in two switchboards to two different lights (FF and Hager) I got other effects:

After removing the fuse from the BZ-3 (burnout simulation) connected to the LK-713K lamp the lamp goes on and the LED in the BZ-3 lights up .

After removing the fuse from the BZ-3 connected to the SVN129 lamp, the lamp goes out and does not light up diode in BZ-3.

So the operation of the protection is not correct, what's more, despite the connection according to the instructions (identical), the operation of both protections is VARIOUS !!!.


As I do not like to leave such situations without explanation, I contacted the Technical Department of FF. The correspondence was as follows:

FF answer:

The problem lies in the receivers themselves. Generally, LK-713 lamps are receivers that draw very low current and hence problems. In the case of F & F, we do not provide information about the protection of the lamps, because the lamp itself has protection.

I do not know what are the recommendations for lamps at Hager.

My question:

First of all, in the instructions for the FF lamp it is given that a protection should be used (eg BZ-3) in the case when the protection from the lamp is greater than 25A.

Source http://www.fif.com.pl/pub/File/download/INSTR...zniki%20zasilania/LK-713%20%20instruction.pdf

Secondly, if I pull the fuse from the BZ-3, i.e. break the circuit, how is it possible that the lamp connected for the BZ-3 still lights up?

What is the internal BZ-3 diagram that in my opinion does not work properly?

FF answer:
The light in the BZ-3 lights up after the insert is burned, as it is connected parallel to the fuse.

It sowed more doubts on me:

If it is connected in parallel, how is the fuse working, the current flows through it to the lamp, and if it is blown or it does not flow through the diode and the lamp should continue to glow.
And this is the case when connecting to the Hager lamp (I mistook the lights here - this is the case in LK-713)
In this case, simultaneous lighting of the diode and the lamp means that the phase is, but the lamp is not protected.


In this case (Hager), the unlit LED and the unlit light means that the protection works and the phase is missing, but it is the other way around. It is dangerous for the user who may think that the phase is gone and will be struck.

And I received from FFanswer that is important from the safety point:

It all depends on electricity. Our light LK-713 is so built that the current is small enough that it does not trigger the light-emitting diode in the protection . Apparently the current of the Hager lamp is bigger.

I agree with the Lord about security and remove this record from the instructions of the lamp. As I wrote in the first e-mail - in most cases our lights do not have to be secured with an additional fuse, but following the reasoning of our e-mail exchange - if it is, it should not be BZ-3.


EDIT - I deleted a colleague's colleague Łukasz-O, because he put it in a lower post and I formatted the post a bit to make it more readable.
Edit 2 - I corrected the post because I mistook the effects in the lights after removing the fuse.

Next time, provide a link to the thread and statements to make everything clear. In addition, your strange quotes are hard to read.

It's about this topic, or rather this statement: link

Łukasz-O wrote:

This week, I've fallen using the BZ-3 to secure the LK-713 lamps, all from F & F. I used it many times, but I'm ashamed to admit now (and accidentally) I noticed the problem They can not be used as intended

Case # 1.
Connecting according to the manufacturer's diagram (power supply to the odd contact) we get the following effect:

The lack of fuse links is signaled by red LEDs, however, the LK-713 lamps are still lit.

Case # 2.
Connecting the power supply to the even contact (contrary to the manufacturer's recommendation) BZ-3, causes "normal" fuse operation but without burnout indication:


PS In the pictures you can see different arrangement of cameras but it is the same switchboard only, that after assembly changes.

According to the information provided by the FF technician, a fuse and a diode (probably with a resistor) are connected in parallel in the BZ-3.

In this case, connecting the phase to the odd-numbered contact (variant 1) after the fuse has been blown-in probably works properly - the lamp is lit, because there is a phase in the circuit, but the diode in the BZ-3 also lights up because the fuse is flared. For the user it is a signal that there is voltage in the system (on the receivers), but the lamp is not protected.

If the connection is reversed, the light and diode should also be on (with alternating current. Why does not the LED in the security light come on?

Old topic, but because it is displayed as one of the first when you enter a Google password with the product name, it may be worth paying attention to future seekers that the F&F offer already includes LK-BZ-3 indicator lights in different colors. On their site it is described as new.
In this case the lamp and fuse are connected in series.

For the manufacturer:

"The indicators are protected by fuses connected in series to them, which avoids the use of an additional module with protections and, as a result, saves space in the switchgear. The other end of the fuse is led out to the device housing connector, which also allows it to be used to protect other parts of the circuit.

Action
The presence of voltage behind the fuse is signaled by the lighting of the appropriate LED connected to the circuit of this phase. In the event of phase voltage loss or the fuse burning out, the indicator light is off to indicate no voltage. "

In my opinion, great thing.
"

To be honest I have met this product for the first time.
Finally, something practical was invented in the topic of power controls for small switchgears.
They should also introduce LK-BZ-2 and LK-BZ-1.

And on the side is the connection diagram.

retrofood wrote:

And on the side is the connection diagram.

This is not a novelty in this company's modular cameras.

Łukasz-O wrote:

They should also introduce LK-BZ-2 and LK-BZ-1.

This is as new, so the chance is that they will still bring

retrofood wrote:

And on the side is the connection diagram.

The progress of civilization

_mrcn wrote:

This is as new, so the chance is that they will still bring

Would have been nice. LK-BZ-1 for signaling one phase, e.g. in an apartment as found, while LK-BZ-2 for control.

_mrcn wrote:

retrofood wrote:

And on the side is the connection diagram.

The progress of civilization

I don't know what you mean with these diagrams. After all, F&F always placed schematics on enclosures.

Łukasz-O wrote:

I don't know what you mean with these diagrams. After all, F&F always placed schematics on enclosures.

I didn't use this company much, but in fact there were always stair machines. This is a convenience, not always connecting the camera is clear. And we don't always have access to the "instructions"

Łukasz-O wrote:

I don't know what you mean with these diagrams. After all, F&F always placed schematics on enclosures.

You got so serious this year. Smile!

retrofood wrote:

Łukasz-O wrote:

I don't know what you mean with these diagrams. After all, F&F always placed schematics on enclosures.

You got so serious this year. Smile!

_mrcn wrote:

In my opinion, great thing.

Lamp fuses, in addition indicator lights for these fuses.
Not too much ?
What is the purpose of securing controls?
It protects the installation against the effects of a "hypothetical" short circuit in the controls.

These controls should have built-in protection.
Which is not a problem in the 21st century.
Control module 2 modules, 35mm.
I've designed it for a long time.

The controls can be designed so that they do not require an internal fuse.

CYRUS2 wrote:

These controls should have built-in protection.

CYRUS2 wrote:

The controls can be designed so that they do not require an internal fuse.

Well then how? Write more carefully because reading your posts I get lost sometimes.

"Stupid" question.
And can I use a fuse with a breaking capacity of 500 A, as in post No. 2? At IPZ at 0.2 ohms?
That's how much popular glass tubes for 50 gr. FF also does not provide short-circuit parameters.
Konrad.

CYRUS2 wrote:

The controls can be designed so that they do not require an internal fuse.

opornik7 wrote:

Well then how? Write more carefully because reading your posts I get lost sometimes.

Clear text.
The fact that the device does not require short circuit protection does not mean that it must have a built-in fuse inside.
This can be achieved by another method.
It is the same with a device in protection class 2.

I gave up the lights at home. In the main switchgear and sub-switchgears I have DMV-3 TrueRMS https://www.fif.com.pl/pl/multimetry/852-wskaznik-napiecia-dmv-3-truerms.html This is more fad and quite expensive. I like to take a look at the voltage while being in the garage by the transparent door in the subdivision, or looking into the RG. Nice this LK-BZ-3, I like it. It's good to know that they released something like that.

Anyone know where to buy LK-BZ-3?

fachowarobota100 wrote:

Anyone know where to buy LK-BZ-3?

In an electric warehouse?

Can you indicate in which? Because I was in a few and there is ...

Hello
Here you have the link to F&F distributors
CLICK

fachowarobota100 wrote:

Can you indicate in which? Because I was in a few and there is ...

Any self-respecting electrical wholesaler, I repeat a wholesaler, not a GS or DIY store - I will bring you any apparatus if it is not in stock. Not everything is kept in stock, especially low-order goods.

As a curiosity I will write that OW LED street lighting fixtures (cone) of a well-known company on "R" wait four to seven weeks. And this is not the fault of the wholesaler, only the manufacturer.

Approx. Thanks gentlemen for help.