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Daylight Intensity Measurements: Lux Meters, Conversion, Protocol, Workstations & Units

PUMAS01 4452 17
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  • #1 16658973
    PUMAS01
    Level 11  
    Hello.
    Has any of the readers ever taken measurements of daylight? If so, please help me on this topic. I know how to make them (two people with lux meters, one outside, the other inside, the measurement is performed simultaneously in a cloudy sky), but after conversion, they come out as a percentage (intensity inside / intensity outside * 100%) and I have no idea what to create for this protocol and where I can find the minimum values for given workstations. Even if I did not multiply by percentages, I still get a number without units that I do not know what to compare (refer to) to. If someone has a pattern or such measurements, I would very much like to share.
    Thanks in advance for your help and interest.
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  • #2 16658980
    kozi966
    Moderator of Electricians group
    Daily intensity measurements? I am the first to hear about such measurements.
    After all, these are values of the order of tens of thousands of lux. What would they be used for?
    Moreover, what is the purpose of comparing the intensity "somewhere" inside (because you have not specified what inside it is) to what is happening outside?
  • #3 16659020
    PUMAS01
    Level 11  
    It is a new hall of the glassworks, it has very few windows and the intensity of daylight is low. The building is undergoing acceptance and such measurements have been requested by Senepid.
    It is related to:
    Journal of Laws 2002 No.75, item. 690 § 57. 1. A room intended for the stay of people should be provided with daylight, adapted to its purpose, shape and size, taking into account the conditions specified in § 13 and in general health and safety regulations.

    If people stay in the rooms for more than 4 hours daylighting must be provided. If it is impossible, e.g. an underground facility or for reasons of production technology, it is required to obtain the consent of the competent state voivodeship sanitary inspector, issued in consultation with the competent district labor inspector. Only nowhere in the standards have I found any details of what the results should be related to.
    If the intensity at the workplace is to be taken from the standards, none of it because the standards are given in lux, and here the measurement results are expressed as a percentage of the outdoor daylight intensity. and what to do with it?
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  • #4 16661676
    kozi966
    Moderator of Electricians group
    PUMAS01 wrote:
    If the intensity at the workplace is to be taken from the standards, none of it because the standards are given in lux, and here the measurement results are expressed as a percentage of the outdoor daylight intensity. and what to do with it?

    Buddy, please :D
    You are to ensure that the lighting in the facility meets the minimum and standard requirements for the requirements of a given job or position.
    Is daylight required by the regulation? is. It's enough? no or yes, additional electric lighting must be provided.

    Let's read the entire regulation:

    Quote:

    § 57. 1. The room intended for the stay of people should be provided with daylight, adapted to its purpose, shape and size, taking into account the conditions specified in § 13 and in the general provisions
    occupational health and safety.
    2. In a room intended for people, the ratio of the window area, calculated in the light of the door frames, to the floor area should be at least 1: 8, while in another room where daylight
    is required for purpose - at least 1:12.

    § 58. 1. It is allowed to illuminate the room intended for people only with artificial light, if:
    1) daylight lighting is not necessary or it is not advisable for technological reasons;
    2) is justified by the functional expediency of locating this room in an underground facility or in a part of the building without daylight.
    2. If the room referred to in sec. 1, is a permanent work room within the meaning of the general provisions on health and safety at work, for the use of artificial lighting only, including electric, it is required to obtain the consent of the competent state provincial sanitary inspector, issued in consultation with the competent district labor inspector.
    3. The arrangement referred to in para. 2, does not apply to buildings for state defense.

    § 59. 1. The rooms intended for people and for general traffic (communication) should be provided with artificial lighting according to the utility needs.
    2. General artificial lighting of a room intended for permanent residence of people should ensure appropriate conditions for the use of its entire surface.
    3. Lighting with artificial light of interconnected rooms intended for permanent stay of people and general travel (communication) should not show differences in intensity, causing glare at the passage between these rooms.



    Now let's move on to the provisions of the health and safety requirements:
    Quote:

    § 10.1 In all places on the premises of the workplace where employees may stay, the employer is obliged to provide electric lighting at night. or if daylight lighting is insufficient. The lighting requirements are defined by Polish Standards.

    2. Electrical installations and devices should be made and operated in such a way that they do not expose workers to electric shock, atmospheric surges, harmful effects of electromagnetic fields, and do not constitute a fire or explosion hazard and do not cause other harmful effects.

    And further:

    § 15.1. Workrooms and their equipment should provide employees with safe and hygienic working conditions. In particular, natural and artificial lighting should be provided in work rooms , appropriate temperature, air exchange and protection against moisture, unfavorable thermal conditions and sunlight, vibrations and other factors harmful to health and nuisance.

    And additionally:

    Chapter 2
    Lighting
    § 25 In the premises of permanent work, daylight should be provided, unless it is impossible or inappropriate due to the production technology, and the employer has obtained the consent of the competent provincial state sanitary inspector issued in consultation with the district labor inspector for the use of only electric lighting.
    § 26.1. Day lighting at individual workplaces should be adapted to the type of work performed and the required accuracy, and should meet the requirements specified in the Polish Standard.
    2. Irrespective of the daylight, electric lighting should be provided in workplaces with parameters consistent with Polish Standards.
    § 27.1. The ratio of the average values of illuminance in adjacent rooms through which internal communication takes place, should not be greater than 5 to 1.
    2.When leaving the rooms where, for technological reasons, work is performed in the dark (e.g. dark optical), the conditions should be ensured enabling a gradual adaptation of the eyesight.
    § 28 In rooms and workplaces where, in the event of a lighting failure, there may be threats to the life or health of employees, emergency lighting of appropriate intensity should be provided, in accordance with the Polish Standard.
    § 28a. Lighting installations in rooms where there are workplaces and in corridors should be selected and made so as not to expose the employee to an accident caused by the type of lighting installed.
    § 29.1. Windows, skylights and skylights in work rooms with high air humidity should be made in a way preventing condensation of water vapor. In the event of particularly large mist in the room and the possibility of water drops falling onto the workplace, gutters or other devices draining water from windows, skylights and skylights should be installed.
    2. Glass in windows and skylights should be clean and let a sufficient amount of light pass through. Convenient and safe access should be provided for cleaning windows and skylights.
    3. Windows and skylights should be equipped with appropriate devices to eliminate excessive exposure to sunlight falling on the workplace.
    4. Windows and skylights intended for ventilation of rooms should be equipped with devices allowing for openingthem easily and safely from the floor and setting the opening parts in the desired position.

    So you have to check the intensity in the object at the given points and compare it with the requirements of the standard.

    Any conversion of external intensity into internal one is a complete lack of understanding of the subject. I found it only in the subject of lighting parameter settings, curtains inclination and other goodies for lighting control depending on the position of the sun and electricity savings.
  • #5 16663566
    PUMAS01
    Level 11  
    What about this:
    Chapter 2
    Lighting
    § 25 In the premises of permanent work, daylight should be provided, unless it is impossible or inappropriate due to the production technology, and the employer has obtained the consent of the competent provincial state sanitary inspector issued in consultation with the district labor inspector for the use of only electric lighting.
    § 26.1. Day lighting at individual workplaces should be adapted to the type of work performed and the required accuracy, and should meet the requirements specified in the Polish Standard.

    After talking to PIP, I found out that there is no option to obtain the consent of the competent state provincial sanitary inspector in consultation with the district labor inspector to use these rooms for work without daylight.
    After that, I finally managed to find the appropriate standard "Interior lighting with daylight - General conditions." PN-B-02380: 1971 "It is a withdrawn standard, but has not been replaced by any other, so you can safely refer to it. It contains precise guidelines on how many percent of external lighting should be at the post depending on the category of visual activity. At the workplace, lighting according to PN -EN 12464-1: 2012, but also PN-B-02380: 1971 must be taken into account if a person works continuously in a given position for more than 4 hours a day.
    Besides, I was partially misleading because § 57, 58 and 59 are construction law (according to PIP, stay and work are not the same thing), and we are interested in health and safety, especially paragraphs 25 and 26, which unfortunately cannot be avoided. Everything regarding artificial lighting concerns the night or insufficient weather conditions (info from PIP and SENEPID).
    Daylight illuminance is measured according to the following procedures:
    - measurements are performed on the day when the sky surface is covered with clouds and when the outdoor lighting intensity is at least 5000lx; electric lighting is turned off during measurements;
    - measurements are made with two light meters by two users at the same time, one of them inside the room and the other outside in an exposed location;
    - measurements inside the room are performed on working planes, as well as electric lighting measurements, at least 70 centimeters from the wall, or on the floor when there are no specific work stations;
    - outside and inside measurements should be made at the same time intervals.

    And unfortunately, when SENEPID insists, such measurements must be made taking into account both standards.

    So, buddy, I took pity as you wrote and described everything I learned, I hope that apart from myself, I helped someone else.
  • #6 16663596
    Krzysztof Reszka
    Moderator of Electrical engineering
    PUMAS01 wrote:
    but PN-B-02380: 1971 must also be taken into account if a person works continuously on a given position for more than 4 hours a day.

    Not true, there are thousands of positions in various professions where there is no daylight. In fact, it cannot be.
    Tell the miner to open his window.
  • #7 16663822
    PUMAS01
    Level 11  
    So for those "thousands of positions in various professions where there is no daylight. And even there cannot be." the employer obtains "the consent of the competent state voivodship sanitary inspector issued in agreement with the district labor inspector". Unfortunately, as I wrote in the case of the glassworks, obtaining this consent is impossible, because daylight is possible and the technological process can take place in daylight.

    Please do not accuse me of untruth on the basis of a sentence taken out of context and read at least the entire post with understanding. I spent three days reading the standards and walking from PIP to SENEPID and I have described what I learned here as a solution to my problem and accepted by the above-mentioned offices. Let's read, check and ask before we deny something, because the post contains information about where this knowledge comes from.
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  • #8 16664136
    kozi966
    Moderator of Electricians group
    Buddy, I gave you two legal bases. Never in my life have I seen lighting testers flying both inside and outside, and not one object has been picked up. Therefore, ask these specialists from the Department of Health and Safety about the legal basis and guidelines for carrying out these specific measurements. The standard you pasted on, dating from 1971, is some obsolete, in addition withdrawn.

    Read the paragraph 10 I quoted. There is no question of getting anyone's consent, because you have outdoor lighting, but it does not have to be sufficient, because it:
    PUMAS01 wrote:
    After talking to PIP, I found out that there is no option to obtain the consent of the competent state provincial sanitary inspector in consultation with the district labor inspector to use these rooms for work without daylight.

    He disagrees with this:
    kozi966 wrote:
    § 10.1 In all places on the premises of the workplace where employees may stay, the employer is obliged to provide electric lighting at night. or if daylight lighting is insufficient. The lighting requirements are defined by Polish Standards.


    Well, but if you accept this form of measurement, because someone in the office agreed to it, ok. I'm curious about these parameters.
    For my part, I am going to ask an official question to the relevant institutions in order to verify their requirements, their response time will probably exceed 2 months ...
  • #9 16664841
    PUMAS01
    Level 11  
    In the health and safety regulations, the vocabulary is explained at the beginning. "Staying" referred to in § 10.1 is not the same as "permanent work" referred to in § 25. Permanent work is at least 4 hours a day, and the stay is less than 4 hours. Such a word game, but quite essential. A colleague who works at PIP explained it to me, he generally said that PIP did not care, but SENEPID supposedly charges fees for permits to work indoors only with electric light and therefore they look for wherever they can and use construction law, health and safety etc. It is important to read the introduction to the general health and safety regulations where the vocabulary is explained, and then a lot changes ... a lot is explained .... It's all about those unfortunate 4 hours. Therefore, at the steelworks, shift work up to 4 hours was organized in places where measurements were not made. or shorter and now there is no need for daylight at all. Offices that were inside the glassworks without windows are moved.
  • #10 16664869
    kozi966
    Moderator of Electricians group
    I know the rules and I know when someone wants to squeeze something. In this case, they clearly want to push something, hence an official letter will be sent in their scope.
  • #13 16667560
    tadkli9743
    Level 24  
    Hello

    It is the Polish Standard PN-B-02380: 1971 "Interior lighting with daylight - General conditions".
    This standard is currently available for purchase at the Polish Committee for Standardization as withdrawn in paper form for PLN 43.70.

    best regards
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  • #15 16668439
    kozi966
    Moderator of Electricians group
    The presented standard still does not justify the performance of these measurements.
    It is also not a legal basis for performing the measurements in question.
    I am not even able to understand what the people working in the institutions in question are guided by by accepting the form of measurements as presented.
    How will it come out too little what? Or when the working time will be longer than the permissible intensity that can be obtained during the day?

    These measurements only show that some intensity during the day will be there. Even if you know how many and in which places, I bet it's not enough at certain times of the day.
    A sensible measurement will be to verify the intensity inside the facility at work stations.
    I suspect that you will have to install electric lighting anyway, so they will additionally come out as required "standard" measurements, i.e. intensity only from electric light.

    By the way, nobody forbids the use of withdrawn standards.
  • #16 16668537
    PUMAS01
    Level 11  
    It is also new to me, and I have never encountered it before. Therefore, I asked the health and safety worker from the steelworks to request the legal basis of these measurements from SENEPID. Unfortunately, I have heard that He will not start with the senepidem unnecessary arguments and whether I will do it or not. This was the reason for starting this thread and looking for hints wherever possible. I am also not 100% sure that all of this is right, but what I found out I described it.
    The light intensity at the stand is to be compliant with the 12464 standard, but it should be daylight and also comply with PN-B-02380 if the working time exceeds 4 hours.
    It all makes no sense because they work 3 shifts at the steelworks and what is the third shift to say? :)
    I laugh at it, but I made the measurements according to standards, today they delivered them and SENEPID checked, they said OK and accepted.
  • #17 16668599
    kozi966
    Moderator of Electricians group
    PUMAS01 wrote:
    Unfortunately, I have heard that He will not start with the senepidem unnecessary arguments

    So still "our lord's office". If people are afraid to ask, then exactly such problems come out, just to have peace.
  • #18 16670060
    PUMAS01
    Level 11  
    Today I received a call to provide Senepid with a certificate that our company is an accredited laboratory authorized to perform this type of tests / measurements 8-O :lol: . This time I personally demanded the legal basis of such requirements from the Senepid, because nowhere in the regulations is this standardized (and for a moment I heard silence in the receiver). Accreditation after the appropriate course and fees is obtained from SENEPID! It is needed for the measurement of factors harmful to health, but lighting is not a harmful factor but a nuisance so accreditation is not needed. Normally in this department of Senepid they already surpass themselves :roll:

Topic summary

The discussion revolves around the measurement of daylight intensity using lux meters in a glassworks facility with limited natural light. The main query seeks guidance on creating a measurement protocol and understanding the minimum daylight intensity standards for workstations, as required by health and safety regulations. Participants debate the necessity of daylight in work environments, referencing Polish regulations that stipulate the need for adequate daylight unless otherwise permitted. They discuss the relevance of the withdrawn Polish Standard PN-B-02380: 1971 for interior lighting with daylight and the challenges in obtaining consent from health authorities for workplaces lacking natural light. The conversation highlights the complexities of compliance with lighting standards and the need for clarity in measurement protocols.
Summary generated by the language model.
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