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Quality of power generators - comparison of oscillograms of popular power genera

elpython 10410 13
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Treść została przetłumaczona polish » english Zobacz oryginalną wersję tematu
  • #1 16740886
    elpython
    Level 12  
    Hello.
    Recently interested in the topic of power quality, which is generated by portable power generators for every budget, I decided to propose that the one who has an aggregate and an oscilloscope at one time and place :-) examined the output voltage waveform without and under load. It turns out, as it could have been foreseen, that most cheaper (and sometimes even more expensive) aggregates generate a terrible chaff instead of something that is similar to a sine wave about which every user with modern equipment that we attach to these aggregates would wish.
    At the beginning I am tossing the link to the Stanley aggregate test https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic2381701.html where the output oscillograms from this device are included. The second test that the same colleague did is here: https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic2386367.html. It is worth watching what the waveforms look like, especially the second aggregate is quite popular.
    I suggest that you place such runs as much as possible and write what aggregate they come from at what load. I think it will help to dispel the doubts of many people who need to use an aggregate for sensitive equipment and they care about the best quality of energy and from the seller they are not able to get such information or have no way to test it.

    I will start from myself. I have a popular old military aggregate Pab-2, whose combustion I once asked my colleagues in this thread: https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic3272854.html.
    Yesterday I measured this aggregate quickly with an old "non-digital" oscilloscope :-) without load and under a load of 75% or about 1.5kW.
    Here's what I saw:
    Quality of power generators - comparison of oscillograms of popular power genera No load
    Quality of power generators - comparison of oscillograms of popular power genera And close-up :-)
    And under load:
    Quality of power generators - comparison of oscillograms of popular power genera
    Quality of power generators - comparison of oscillograms of popular power genera and close-up.

    To my surprise, the quality of the generated electricity is very good and in fact I have never had a problem with any type of furnace, blower controller, fridge, pumps - anything in the power of the unit.

    At the same time, I warn that measurements should be made by people with an idea what they are doing because measurements should be made either with a special high voltage differential probe or a suitable probe for a voltage above 300 V with a silencer, and remember that one of the probe leads, i.e. the crocodile clip, is connected to ground and oscilloscope casing which may cause a potential short circuit or electric shock - so remember to make measurements only when you are sure what you are doing !!! or ask someone who has this knowledge.

    I invite you to paste photos and discussions. Greetings
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  • #2 16741267
    jarekgol
    Level 40  
    In my opinion, it would be worth measuring the disconnection of this high load, does the voltage not rise strongly then? I just don't know if you'll catch it on an analog oscilloscope.

    I mean situations when you have connected a device which cyclically takes "a lot" and parallel electronics.
  • #3 16741290
    elpython
    Level 12  
    Interestingly, in the case of Pab the opposite is true - I measured it a long time ago. Namely, I set the output of the AVR system to e.g. 220 V RMS. I attach a load of e.g. 1.5kW and the voltage jumps up to 230V. The system according to data and reality provides stabilization at + -8%. And as I disconnect the main load and the rest it remains, the voltage drops to about 220V, so the control method in this aggregate is quite good in my opinion.
  • #4 16741305
    jarekgol
    Level 40  
    It really looks good, and did you measure with an oscilloscope or meter? Because the swings are quite short.
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  • #5 16741370
    elpython
    Level 12  
    I did it a long time ago and it seems to me that I did it with an oscilloscope - I don't remember any anomalies except minor surges probably resulting from the arcing during disconnection of the load - I have to repeat these tests with different types of load out of curiosity. I will do it in my free time and post in this thread yet.
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  • #6 16741631
    danielkk
    Level 31  
    And this is how to synchronize the aggregate to the network as it has such a chaff on the output ...
  • #7 16742805
    IS
    Level 19  
    Small portable / mobile aggregates in the army are not synchronized with the network. The PAB-2 was therefore not intended for synchronization. Unless some strange modification or performance but I haven't seen one with such low power yet.
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  • #8 16745495
    paszczakq
    Level 27  
    In most cases, these aggregates power drills, grinders and other inventions that this chaff does not bother.
  • #9 19903182
    marekmajdak87
    Level 6  
    Hello,

    I wanted to find out about the supply voltage from the Kraft & Dele KD 162 generator with AVR, rated power 3.5KVA

    The question is whether with this voltage waveform, it can be safely connected to the emergency power supply of a refrigerator or a condensing boiler?
    Attachments:
    • Quality of power generators - comparison of oscillograms of popular power genera IMG_20220224_175754_013.jpg (3.29 MB) You must be logged in to download this attachment.
    • Quality of power generators - comparison of oscillograms of popular power genera IMG_20220224_175820_763.jpg (3.12 MB) You must be logged in to download this attachment.
    • Quality of power generators - comparison of oscillograms of popular power genera IMG_20220224_175804_315.jpg (3.14 MB) You must be logged in to download this attachment.
  • #10 19904295
    jarekgol
    Level 40  
    @ marekmajdak87 I do not know how accurate your oscilloscope is and why you will not give 100V per plot instead of 200V, but it looks like you have the peak at 400V, which may be the nominal voltage of the capacitors in switching power supplies, so I advise you to be careful.
    Connect yourself to a rectifier on one diode and electrolyte and see what constant it will be charged to, then load the generator "in front of the rectifier" with a light bulb and remove the load and see what then.
  • #11 19904498
    marekmajdak87
    Level 6  
    Hello, I changed the pitch to 100V.

    The pictures show graphs without load and with a load of 2000W (radiator). I also have a video, but unfortunately I won't post it here
    Quality of power generators - comparison of oscillograms of popular power genera Quality of power generators - comparison of oscillograms of popular power genera Quality of power generators - comparison of oscillograms of popular power genera Quality of power generators - comparison of oscillograms of popular power genera
  • #13 19904526
    marekmajdak87
    Level 6  
    kkknc wrote:
    It's far from ideal.


    Well, I already know from the beginning. My question is whether it is safe to connect to it something more than simple devices such as a refrigerator or a gas boiler.
  • #14 19904536
    kkknc
    Level 43  
    If the gas boiler can check the most problems, the engine will run.

Topic summary

✨ The discussion centers on the quality of power generated by portable power generators, particularly focusing on the output voltage waveforms as observed through oscillograms. Users share their experiences measuring voltage stability under load conditions, noting that many generators, especially lower-cost models, produce distorted waveforms rather than ideal sine waves. Specific tests of the Stanley generator and Kraft & Dele KD 162 generator are referenced, with users expressing concerns about the safety of connecting sensitive devices like refrigerators and gas boilers to generators with poor waveform quality. The conversation highlights the importance of measuring voltage fluctuations and the potential risks associated with using generators that do not maintain stable output under varying loads.

FAQ

TL;DR: Portable generators vary: one PAB‑2 showed AVR “stabilization at ±8%” and held 220–230 V under 1.5 kW; others look choppy. “Stabilization at ±8%.” [Elektroda, elpython, post #16741290]

Why it matters: If you power a fridge, boiler, or electronics from a generator, waveform quality and voltage swings decide what survives.

Quick-Facts

Quick Facts

What does the PAB‑2 generator’s waveform look like under real load?

An owner scoped a PAB‑2 at no‑load and about 75% load (~1.5 kW). The oscillograms looked close to a sine, both unloaded and loaded. He reported stable operation of boilers, blowers, fridges, and pumps when powered by this unit. [Elektroda, elpython, post #16740886]

How does the PAB‑2 AVR behave when a 1.5 kW load connects or disconnects?

With the AVR set to about 220 V RMS, adding ~1.5 kW raised voltage toward 230 V, then it settled. Removing the main load dropped voltage back near 220 V. The author summarized the regulation as “±8%.” [Elektroda, elpython, post #16741290]

Do budget generators really have poor sine quality?

Yes. The thread opener noted that many cheaper units, and even some pricier ones, produce highly distorted waveforms rather than a clean sine. Sensitive electronics can be affected by this “chaff.” [Elektroda, elpython, post #16740886]

Is the Kraft & Dele KD 162 (3.5 kVA, AVR) safe for a fridge or gas boiler?

Captured traces led one expert to caution that peaks near 400 V could stress SMPS input capacitors. A fridge or boiler may run, but surge and distortion increase risk. Use a high‑quality surge protector or an inverter generator if possible. [Elektroda, jarekgol, post #19904295]

What did another expert say about the KD 162 waveform quality?

A respondent summarized the captured waveform as, “It’s far from ideal.” That aligns with the observed peakiness on the scope. [Elektroda, kkknc, post #19904520]

Can small portable or military generators be synchronized to the utility grid?

No. A contributor clarified that small portable/mobile sets in the military, including the PAB‑2, were not designed for grid synchronization. Avoid backfeeding. [Elektroda, IS, post #16742805]

Which loads are less sensitive to a choppy waveform?

Tools like drills and grinders typically tolerate distortion better than electronics. One poster noted these are often the intended loads for such generators. [Elektroda, paszczakq, post #16745495]

How should I measure a generator’s AC waveform safely with an oscilloscope?

Use a high‑voltage differential probe or a probe rated beyond 300 V with proper attenuation. Remember the probe ground clip ties to earth and scope chassis; incorrect grounding can short the output and shock you. Measure only if you understand the risks. [Elektroda, elpython, post #16740886]

What oscilloscope scaling helps reveal dangerous peaks?

If a 200 V/div scale hides detail, switch to 100 V/div to see peaks. That change exposed concerning ~400 V excursions in one KD 162 capture. “Be careful,” advised the commenter. [Elektroda, jarekgol, post #19904295]

How can I quickly check if peaks overstress my SMPS input? (3‑step test)

  1. Rectify the generator output with one diode into an electrolytic capacitor.
  2. Measure DC across the capacitor at steady load.
  3. Add and remove a lamp load before the rectifier; observe DC rise on unload. This reveals peak voltage stress. [Elektroda, jarekgol, post #19904295]

What is AVR in a generator, in plain terms?

AVR is an automatic voltage regulator. It adjusts the excitation to keep output near a set RMS voltage despite load changes, as seen when a PAB‑2 held around 220–230 V. [Elektroda, elpython, post #16741290]

Do voltage spikes happen when disconnecting a heavy load?

A user noted minor surges during disconnection, likely from arcing, but no major anomalies in earlier tests. He planned to repeat tests with varied loads for confirmation. [Elektroda, elpython, post #16741370]

What’s an oscillogram, and why should I care?

An oscillogram is a captured waveform from an oscilloscope. It shows whether your generator outputs a clean sine or a distorted shape that may harm electronics. The thread shares several real captures. [Elektroda, elpython, post #16740886]

Edge case: Can peak voltages hit capacitor ratings in appliances?

Yes. One analysis indicated peaks around 400 V on a KD 162 trace, close to common 400 V electrolytic ratings in SMPS. That’s a failure risk during surges. [Elektroda, jarekgol, post #19904295]

If my generator waveform looks rough, what’s a practical mitigation?

Use an inverter generator for cleaner sine output, or add a suitable UPS with generator mode. If stuck with a conventional unit, derate load and add surge protection. Still, validate with a scope first. “It’s far from ideal.” [Elektroda, kkknc, post #19904520]
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