Adjusting Floor Distributor for Condensing Gas Boiler in Insulated House with Oversized Radiators

Hello colleagues.

A few words about the currently operating installation: condensing gas boiler, moderately insulated house (walls 0.25-0.44W / m2K, flat insulated roof), heating based on a weather sensor and a heating curve, very oversized radiators (aluminum section and steel plate convectors ), at the current December temperatures outside, the temperature in the entire single-family building is approximately 240m2, stable around 21 ° C, and the furnace supply temperature is approximately 38 ° C.

Now in two rooms (19m2 and 22m2 new floors have been made, of course, with insulation based on EPS polystyrene, on average 10cm thick (as far as technical possibilities allowed) and water floor heating will be made of (most likely) layered alupex 16 pipes on average, about 10mb pipes / 1m2, two loops per room, final floors screed with PP fibers (no anhydrite)

Manifold with a mixing-pump group as in the picture:


Mixer: AFRISO ATM 366 adjustable from 20-43 ° C
Pump: GRUNDFOS UPM3 AUTO L

At present, this distributor will operate based on the setting of the mixer itself, setting the desired ones
flows with rotameters and the pump will be controlled from the gas boiler (it will operate at the same time as the circulation pump in the boiler).

Because the controllers will be mounted on the wall for this floor heating, I would like to ask my colleagues if they know the systems and install those in which the solenoid valves operate proportionally, and not as typical, most commonly used, which work only in two states (fully open or fully closed).
Such a wireless system with proportional opening, but for mounting on the radiators only, is e.g. AURATON TRA - such a thermostatic head will open proportionally to the needs.

Of course, such a proportional system can also control the above circulation pump at the distributor.
The pump itself has a plug to connect something - does anyone know what this plug is for, because there is no such information in the instructions for this Grundfos pump.

At the moment, I am only interested in the information about the number of wires to put between the distributor and the place on the wall where the control is to be installed.
In a typical control with solenoid valves, two control wires are sufficient.

I plan to put four wires, e.g. LIYCY 4x0.5 cable.

Is such a solution reasonable and sufficient in the future for proportional control?

If someone has knowledge and has installed such proportional control, please give a statement indicating what system it is, some documentation, what cables, how does it work.

Buddy, this control is quite expensive but it works really great. For possible changes to each valve, give 7x0.5 best in screen. (5x0.5 is enough)
Proportional valves are either current or voltage controlled.

daro31ie wrote:

Buddy, this control is quite expensive but it works really great. For possible changes to each valve, give 7x0.5 best in screen. (5x0.5 is enough)
Proportional valves are either current or voltage controlled.

I am looking for a little proportional actuators and there is a large selection, but I can not find control systems (central and wall controllers).

1. Does a colleague or other colleagues know any specific proportional system?

2. Should the head in the manifold be replaced in any case to insert proportional actuators there?

Here, buddy, you will not find ready-made drivers.
As I wrote earlier, such systems are quite expensive to build, so the only thing left to do is to program the nap. PLC + HMI.
You have to remember that in such a system you must install a temperature sensor for each circuit, so that proportional control of individual systems makes sense.
Some time ago I was commissioned such a deal, but the client withdrew at the last minute.

Pozdr. daro

And he can use a system that instead of an analog signal for proportional control, it will work on the PVM principle, i.e. proportional opening / closing time, eg DanfossLink has this in its control of the floor heating.
Skirting board + 24V actuators + wireless thermostats in rooms (no need to pull cables).

I wonder why do you need a mixer, if you have a boiler set to a temperature suitable for the floor?

You also have oversized radiators, so you don't need a mixer or flow adjustment.
It is enough to set the flows for individual circuits and radiators once, and the differences in heat demand under variable external conditions. regulate the circuit temperature and boiler operation time, which is basically regulated by the boiler electronics itself.

saskia wrote:

I wonder why do you need a mixer, if you have a boiler set to a temperature suitable for the floor?

What is the temperature suitable for the floor heating? Is the 38 ° C on the boiler at the moment appropriate for the floor heating, or maybe too much? And what will happen when the outside temperature drops to -10, or -15, or even to -20 and the weather regulator calculates that it will hold, for example, 45 °, 55 ° or even 65 ° C on the boiler? Will this also be the right temperature for the floor heating?

This information annoys me:

saskia wrote:

You also have oversized radiators, so you don't need a mixer or flow adjustment.

More than once I have heard that someone combined the floor heating with radiators into one installation and then either the floor was too hot and the floor too hot or the radiators barely warm, i.e. the temperature ~ 26-28 ° C. And how are such radiators supposed to heat the bathroom?
The fact that the installation will be "simpler", because there will be fewer elements and materials for which the investor has to pay - this is only an apparent saving, because later you will spend more on the modification, or it will turn out to be impossible.

Whenever we have radiators and an underfloor heating system, we must have 2 circuits: direct to the radiators and "mixing" to the underfloor heating.

Solenoid valves are enough to separate the circuits, and the boiler can be converted to work for one of the circuits, and exactly one of the room thermostats.
One is enough for flooring rooms, and one for rooms with radiators.
The rest is done by regulating the flow or cross-dressing.

We have a man here who would like to automate the central heating circuit with proportional valves.
I agree that using ordinary solenoid valves the system will work properly. BUT.
The use of full automation controlling the temperature of rooms and systems, pump operation, water temperature, flow can increase the comfort of use and bring measurable benefits in the form of savings.
This is nothing but one of the home automation systems.
Regards, Dara

daro31ie wrote:

We have a man here who would like to automate the central heating circuit with proportional valves.
I agree that using ordinary solenoid valves the system will work properly. BUT.
The use of full automation controlling the temperature of rooms and systems, pump operation, water temperature, flow can increase the comfort of use and bring measurable benefits in the form of savings.
This is nothing but one of the home automation systems.
Regards, Dara

I know, and my post was only to provide options to consider and consider whether the author really needs what he plans, because each increase in automation involves not only the costs of the equipment, but also the requirements of knowledge about the operation of such automation and to what extent actually meets the author's expectations.
I know this from my autopsy, because I will already be around 30 years ago packing myself into a mass of improvements and home automation, the flooring was not very well known then, and I had it at home, it is still there, only cut off, and that the copper tubes are I can connect it at any time.
I had an electric and gas boiler, a floor and radiators, an electrical installation expanded to such an extent that the neighbors thought that it would not be a flat, but a production plant or laboratory (several fuse boards RN12), additional heating with farels on a separate installation with transmitters, temperature regulators for each room and temperature sensors in each room, double el. timers etc. in addition, 3-phase power supply. And a lot of other crap that only consumed my free time and did not change much, neither in heating savings, nor in comfort, because in my absence, no electrician, for example, was able to find the reason for something not working, although the boards had not only the phase markings, but also a description of each fuse and connection diagrams, and I had to come personally, e.g. from work abroad, to only change one of the setting switches on the timer, because the summer season was over and, for example, the central heating did not work, because it was necessary to switch to heating WHAT. I only had high costs of nerve mass and corrections after electricians who cut the cables "short", and most often wrong.
Now everything has fallen into scrap and I put on gravity CO from the fireplace supported by a gas combi boiler to keep the DHW running. I don't need anything else.
The more complex automation systems, the more elements that can be damaged and fail, as well as more chances of collision and dangerous situations, which, as they expand, become less and less predictable, to be taken into account, especially when the user does it or employs different performers.
With CO automation it is the main problem, because you can build a bomb that will not even know where the fuse is, because each element can be one when it fails.
For a long time, the tendency to expand automation can be noticed in the forum, only few people are aware of the costs of its maintenance and operation, not to mention the amateur performance and amateur operation, which should most often be carried out by a professional and the one who did-installed it.
Anyway, you can see it after many posts with questions about solving the problem or checking the correctness of the CO system.
There is an additional problem with the CO automation, because in addition to the correctness of the circuit connections and the use of the correct equipment, there is also the electrical installation and electronics, and some of them may be the cause of a collision or failure of the whole.

saskia wrote:

For a long time, the tendency to expand automation can be noticed in the forum, only few people are aware of the costs of its maintenance and operation, not to mention the amateur performance and amateur operation, which should most often be carried out by a professional and the one who did-installed it.

It's like cars. Now you will not replace the pads or the alternator yourself without adaptation. To control the floors, thermo valves and a small hysteresis of 1/4 degree or a bit less and it works beautifully.

It makes sense to cut off heating in rooms that are already heated, e.g. by exposure to sunlight. This happens irregularly and disturbs the overall temperature distribution in the building. I am just thinking about solutions and possibilities. I myself have a 24KW stove and only a floor heating, and often there is a situation that the entire system is heated while the temperature needs to be increased only in one room (kitchen). I believe that such an improvement will significantly reduce costs.