Which gas stove - Viessmann, De Dietrich or maybe ... Termet?

I am faced with the choice of a boiler for heating the house and preparing domestic hot water. The house has an area of 260 m2. Solid insulation (bottom plate, 30 cm of polystyrene in total, 20 cm walls). Floor heating everywhere. The hot water will be from the 320l double-hose container, because it is planned to add solar panels at a later date.

And experts (various) recommend the following:
- Viessmann - Vitodens 200-W B2HB 26kW
- De Dietrich - Innovens MCA 25

Which one is better? De Dietrich is cheaper. And here the objective parameters end, because some people say to have a Viessmann because everyone has it (so it must be good, it doesn't break down, the service is easy). Others say that it is De Dietrich that does not break down, unlike the Viessmann. How to decide here?

And it occurred to me that maybe ... Termet? Even cheaper, for example, ECOCONDENS CRYSTAL II. But Polish, therefore, there are doubts as to whether it will be as good and as reliable as the more "branded" products mentioned above.

Anyone have any experience or worked on the subject in more depth? I am asking because similar opinions on the forum were 7-6 years ago, so maybe it is different.

Hello. If you value peace, quality, operational reliability, longevity in operation, family safety and economy in the operation and operation of the boiler, then consider companies such as ACV, ATAG or HOVAL. The companies you are considering are nothing more than a cheap and not very good quality mass production focused on the maximum profit of the producer, where quality and economy are of secondary importance. These companies used to make decent products a long time ago, but now it's a distant past. The companies that I have proposed to you are famous in the world for their quality, durability and economy of work, because they first have quality and then money.

ziomekorko wrote:

Hello. If you value peace, quality, operational reliability, longevity in operation, family safety and economy in the operation and operation of the boiler, then consider companies such as ACV, ATAG or HOVAL. The companies you are considering are nothing more than a cheap and not very good quality mass production focused on the maximum profit of the manufacturer, where quality and economy are of secondary importance. These companies used to make decent products a long time ago, but now it's a distant past. The companies that I have proposed to you are famous in the world for their quality, durability and economy of work, because they first have quality and then money.

And how much does such a boiler cost?

ziomekorko wrote:

ACV, ATAG or HOVAL.

Thanks for the suggestions, but ... This is the first time I came across these names. It is even hard to determine the prices of these stoves, in the case of ATAG I managed and it is not much more expensive than the Vailant or De Dietrich, but it worries me. What if I need a service or parts if these are companies that in Poland are either not officially present or hardly ever, i.e. there are not many service technicians, there are no spare parts warehouses, etc. I do not believe that the difference is so huge, and this The fact that in 10 years I will have to replace the stove does not make a big impression on me. As long as he did not screw up for these 10 years and everything is fine.

Added after 42 [seconds]:

tomk38 wrote:

And how much does such a boiler cost?

ATAG ~ 25 kW, approx. PLN 8 thousand. So much was found on the net. You would probably have to call and ask for the rest.

Such Termet or Viessmann is such a good Toyota or Hyundai. And these ACV, ATAG or HOVAL. It's such a Bentley.
Maybe the work culture is better, but I will not agree to less consumption. Price 2 or 3 times more expensive, without service. And fairy tales that will never break are fairy tales.
I have Termet silver for only half a year, but if it continues like this, I do not require anything more from the boiler.

Hello
Ask the service technicians if they have parts ...
A friend has a De Dietrich combi boiler and it breaks down from time to time, minor repairs cost as much as a new boiler, what's the problem? There are no spare parts for gaskets and a minor repair ends with the replacement of the entire component.
Recently, he stated that he will probably buy a new one (this one is only 5 years old) because at least he will have a guarantee for some time.
greetings

I asked. And finally there is ... Vailant.

And what in your case tipped the scales towards Vaillant?

przemek22t wrote:

And what in your case tipped the scales towards Vaillant?

Some circumstances. However, opinions about Termet were generally poor, including the service (apparently it takes a long time, someone had such a problem that no service technician wanted to come to him for the first start of the furnace!). Viessmann ... the fact that everyone has it is an argument for me not to have it. I talked to a service technician who makes various boilers, he told me a bit about the differences in construction (stipulating that they are not class things, that De Dietrich is complete rubbish) and it turned out that the Vailant is a good option, at the same price as De Dietrich. For example, the location of the burner in the chamber in the Vailanta is such that if the condensate drain is blocked, the stove turns off quite quickly with an error, thanks to which no damage occurs and it continues to operate after cleaning. The Viessmann burner is positioned in such a way that you may not be aware of it for a long time, the condensate collects and, as a result, some parts have to be replaced. These aren't a big deal, as this can happen if you don't service your stove regularly, however.

Well, it is already and has been warming since yesterday.

By the way, if someone wanted a service technician on such topics, Krakow and its surroundings, I came across a great guest by accident.

You killed me a wedge, since you in Krakow had problems with the Termet service, what am I to say ...
And I was already rather determined for Termet.

Enter the symbol of this purchase because Vaillant has many names ...

przemek22t wrote:

You killed me a wedge, since you in Krakow had problems with the Termet service, what am I to say ...
And I was already rather determined for Termet.

No, no, I personally did not have any problems because I did not decide on it in the end, so there was nothing to service. But I read about it either here or on the Murator forum when someone was complaining + unanimous negative opinion of several different installers I asked. Of course, neither was probably quite impartial, and it's possible that the Termets are actually ok.

Added after 51 [seconds]:

kz61 wrote:

Enter the symbol of this purchase because Vaillant has many names ...

Vailant ecoTEC Plus VC 206 / 5-5.

And you see - I dumped the Vaillant 242 because I was fed up with failures and sick spare parts prices and installed Termet in the fall ...

mychaj wrote:

And you see - I dumped the Vaillant 242 because I was fed up with failures and sick spare parts prices and installed Termet in the fall ...

There is no need to generalize, I know the case of the Termet boiler, where the cost of the replaced parts exceeded the cost of the boiler, and I know Vaillant and that (242) where nothing broke.

Nime wrote:

Vailant ecoTEC Plus VC 206 / 5-5.

The boiler is very nice and not very troublesome - of course how to service and clean the combustion chamber.

I have a Termet ecocondens crystal ll boiler and I am happy so far for two seasons.

Quote:

The boiler is very nice and not very troublesome - of course how to service and clean the combustion chamber.

I regularly serviced my 242 - and so did the motherboard, exchanger, gas valve 2 times + maintenance costs.
At my brother-in-law: 2 times disc, driver.

The motherboard will not go by itself. Maybe the fault of electrical installations, e.g. overvoltages, etc.

Nime wrote:

Termet? Even cheaper, for example, ECOCONDENS CRYSTAL II. But Polish, therefore, there are doubts as to whether it will be as good and as reliable as the more "branded" products mentioned above.

And you succumb to a typical, distorted common theory: if something brand-name is, it has to be better and more expensive, and not entirely here.
All devices break down, it's normal, if you are lucky, nothing will break in either, but ... Termet silver costs 3200 PLN, inspection 150-200, parts half cheaper than Vailant. The Vailant costs 4800, the service is 2x more expensive, because it's a Vailant, you pay for the brand, so pay.
In 10-12 years, both boilers will be scrapped, so it's no use calling out what badge you have on the boiler in the boiler room. At my brother-in-law, we installed a thermet 4.5 years ago, so far only inspections and one minor, irregular failure of the temperature sensor - free replacement during the inspection by a service technician. I installed these boilers a lot and the only problem was 3 years ago with a strange (not regular) loud start / ignition - in 2 boilers out of 10.
Some factory problem with the boiler settings - settings outside the recommended range were required.
Workmanship and aesthetics certainly differ from other brands, but in the heating device it is a matter of secondary importance. Inside most of the "western" guts, but at a normal price, not as if they were made of gold.

I would say how many people are so many opinions. I have a teenage Vaillant VUW240 / 2-5 and one thing I know is that when I buy a new condensing boiler, I can forget about the durability offered by my boiler. The fact is that the parts are expensive, but if you look for them, you can buy them cheaper abroad, so there is an alternative.
The only drawback is that it is an atmosphere with a minimum power of 9kW, which is too much for me.
When replacing the boiler, it turns out that the new boilers do not necessarily have what should be standard for me.
According to forum threads, it turns out that Crystal does not have the option of regulating the pump capacity, which is easily accessible to the user, it only requires programming with special software and a data cable. As I like to be able to change the settings to adapt to specific conditions, I know one thing that Crystal is not a boiler for me. As already with Termet, I like Gold in terms of available options, but I also like the Junkers Cerapur Compact ZWB24-1 DE. I will have to do a few more tests, but the preliminary analysis showed that it should meet my needs regarding the scope of available regulatory options, because in the end I want to have at least the same as the old boiler + new options.
I only have concerns about domestic hot water, because the boiler does not have an additional sensor, although my Vaillant did not have one at the factory, but it was possible to add it and it improved the stability of the domestic hot water temperature at the outlet of the plate exchanger.

andrzej lukaszewicz wrote:

Nime wrote:

Termet? Even cheaper, for example, ECOCONDENS CRYSTAL II. But Polish, therefore, there are doubts as to whether it will be as good and as reliable as the more "branded" products mentioned above.

And you succumb to a typical, distorted common theory: if something brand-name is, it has to be better and more expensive, and not entirely here.

It is true. And - what's worse - I am even aware of it.

Quote:

The motherboard will not go by itself. Maybe the fault of electrical installations, e.g. overvoltages, etc.

Unfortunately, no - the installation was traveled twice, moreover, new - the service technician of the Vaillant was not even too surprised, but without a murmur he exchanged for a new one (under warranty), for the second I paid 1300 zlotys. They congratulated themselves on the gas valve 700, and another replacement.

I use 6 years ECOCONDENS CRYSTAL II, so far I have replaced / service - gasket (3 years warranty on the warranty - replaced fan)
at the annual inspection PLN 200.
So far, I can't say a bad word. I have old cast iron radiators and here I feel the advantage (they keep warm) in the current frost, flow temperature 50C return 30C.
Disadvantage - no water tank and high water costs after unscrewing the tap, the water flies, starts from 3 // 5 seconds before it heats up, half a bucket of cold water runs out. Stopping / unscrewing and another cycle ... the next one will be with the tank.
This winter, I noticed the "shortness of breath" of the boiler at negative temperatures at night (-20 C) the temperature in the room drops 1 / 1.5c and it's hard to catch up (disabled person at home) - set at 23C day / night cycle off all the time.
The cost in the winter months is about PLN 1500, heating, cooking.
Brother is wondering now and all Valianta advises him ???? I Termeta only with a 100l stainless steel tray - because there are / are subsidies for replacing the coal furnace.
There is Valiant in the company (I work), every inspection is a breakdown .... toothache.
My comments about the Termet stove.
Greetings!

sp5-4013 wrote:

after turning on the tap, the water flies, starts for 3 // 5 seconds before it heats up, half a bucket of cold water runs out

Good point, I still have a boiler with an open combustion chamber, so there is no delay what you are writing about, and the condensates have such a delay, like only a few seconds, but it makes a big difference.
I have to test the domestic hot water on new boilers so that after the purchase there is no disappointment or, as you write, think about a small tank, only in the apartment there is always a problem of space and also to make it look sensible, not like in a boiler room

sp5-4013 wrote:

This winter, I noticed the "shortness of breath" of the boiler at negative temperatures at night (-20 C) the temperature in the room drops 1 / 1.5c and it's hard to catch up (disabled person at home) - set at 23C day / night cycle off all the time.

The boiler has a maximum of 20-25kW, depending on the model, so it has too much power, so it is not the boiler that gets out of breath, but the radiators are doing worse, or it's just a matter of properly setting the entire installation and the boiler itself.

BUCKS - Hello! Thank you for your comments. The heaters heat evenly, I checked the outlet temperature to 55C on the return set to 30C and up to 45C. the burner on the 0 indicator, you can hear the flame modulation in the furnace (I do not know if I am defining it correctly) about 10 / 15s every about 1 minute. Every year, the service technician checks and cleans the combustion chamber - a little bit is collected there as if limescale. I will do the inspection in the spring and I will mention this problem to him. Besides the problem with water (unnecessary consumption), I can not say a bad word about the stove. Out of curiosity, I thought that there will be more comments about the Viessman stove. My brother, the foreman, says that only the above mentioned, and I will keep the termet silent ... I can not say a bad word from myself because it heats well and, apart from the seal, I think for 60 zlotys and I have not lost more money for a period of 6 years, reliable and professional service with professional instrumentation.

sp5-4013 wrote:

temperature at the outlet to 55C on the return set to 30C and reaches 45C

If the supply water is at a constant 55 degrees, then you will also have a constant temperature on the return heater, either 35 (for delta 20) or 45 (for delta 10) depending on the power of this heater and the required water flows.
Therefore, in theory, all radiators should have proportionally the same power, so that they heat up more or less simultaneously and reach the same temperatures.

If the burner modulates, it means that it reaches the limit parameters and must control the power in order not to overheat and not to exceed the set parameters.
Then, depending on the situation, you can make adjustments to the boiler settings.
Current boilers have electronic pumps, so they can control the flow rate automatically depending on the power demand etc.
My mother is an old pump, which pumps at a constant speed, so I, as a user, have to ensure that the radiators have an adequate minimum flow necessary for the proper operation of the boiler.

I changed the heating curve, I had it set to 1.2 to 0.8 and I got the balance. The weather sensor also adjusted because previously I was constantly "chasing" the temperature higher than the programmed (23) - (it was turned off) and with the current frosts it did not want to reach 23 the temperature in the detector room-CR11011 Honeywell. You well suggested changing the heating curve. I was suggested settings (service) not less than 1.2 and here was the error ??. I will see until the morning, now I have -11C outside, the temperature in the room is stable 23C, output temperature 52C, return 36C. (50/30 C programmed on the controller)
Thanks for your comments, I will be in touch in a few days, I will observe the stability of changes as a function of time and external temperature.
The old central installation has not been changed, with the neighbors who have modern / changed copper and aluminum radiators, my fees were always cheaper for two months, about PLN 100/150 (about PLN 1500 with cooking, washing), we will see / check how this year with much lower temperatures outside the window - building a cube construction of the 1980s - insulated outside, the ceiling and from the basement, in the basement a heater in the drying room, two pipes 1.5 inch / 2m - about 120m. Subject experts tell me that this is the merit of cast iron radiators ??
Greetings!

BUCKS wrote:

sp5-4013 wrote:
after turning on the tap, the water flies, starts for 3 // 5 seconds before it heats up, half a bucket of cold water runs out


Good point, I still have a boiler with an open combustion chamber, so there is no delay what you are writing about, and the condensates have such a delay, like only a few seconds, but it makes a big difference.
I have to test the domestic hot water on new boilers so that after the purchase there is no disappointment or, as you write, think about a small tank, only in the apartment there is always a problem of space and also to make it look sensible, not like in a boiler room

half a bucket is 5 liters in 5 seconds is 60 liters per minute .... nice tap. (for 3 seconds I don't even count)
There is nothing to fight for in my opinion. ...... don't get paranoid!

Added after 2 [minutes]:

sp5-4013 wrote:

Stop / Unscrew and cycle again ... the next time I mention it will be with the reservoir.

Until you have circulation .... it won't help much.

Added after 1 [minutes]:

sp5-4013 wrote:

So far, I can't say a bad word. I have old cast iron radiators and here I feel the advantage (they keep warm) in the current frost, flow temperature 50C return 30C.
......
This winter, I noticed the "shortness of breath" of the boiler at negative temperatures at night (-20 C) the temperature in the room drops 1 / 1.5c and it's hard to catch up (disabled person at home) - set at 23C day / night cycle off all the time.

Then turn up the temperature on the stove (power) and that's the problem. Especially since cast iron radiators. Don't worry about condensation.

wnoto wrote:

half a bucket is 5 liters in 5 seconds is 60 liters per minute .... nice tap. (for 3 seconds I don't even count)
There is nothing to fight for in my opinion. ...... don't get paranoid!

I have a practice with a 2-function boiler and I know how comfort drops when the boiler starts the burner with a delay.
If you turn on the tap, cold water flows through the boiler, which at this time cools the exchanger, only after a while the boiler turns on the burner.
This delay means that the boiler will reach the set temperature for a longer period of time and it will take longer for the hot water to reach the tap / shower.
If you turn off the tap now, because you do not need water, then by restarting it, in the event of another delay when starting the burner, it means fluctuations in the domestic hot water temperature and you will need another several seconds to stabilize the water temperature in the tap. Instead of focusing on the shower, you start to get irritated that your temperature jumps and your comfort drops.

It's not like you think a few seconds and that's it.
If I have a preheated plate exchanger on the boiler, waiting for hot water in the shower takes about 0.5 minutes for me. As soon as the water arrives, it is because I have ruled out the timing of the boiler when consuming domestic hot water, so I have a stable water temperature.
If I did not preheat the plate exchanger, waiting for hot water in the shower could take about 1 minute, which is almost twice as long.
For this reason, even without circulation, the tank changes a lot, because you always have hot water at the source and you do not have to wait for this water to be heated at the source and then transport it to the collection point.
Turning the tap off temporarily will not change the temperature of the water, except for a slight cooling of the water in the pipes, but when taking a bath it is a time and a negligible effect, because a delay in starting the burner will be more harmful than cooling the water in the pipes, if we have them in their lagging. With the flow water heater, every second in the delay in starting the burner causes a reduction in comfort and is felt on your own skin, because the temperature jumps like a sine wave.

For this reason, I added an additional DHW sensor at home and set the boiler in such a way that there was no timing effect when taking DHW.
In addition, I try to take a shower during a heating break so that the pump does not "steal" my hot water and does not transfer it to what, because then restarting the domestic hot water mode means another delay, because you have to wait for the 3D valve to switch to hot water before the burner starts, and during this time the cold tap water is not heated, so we have cool water in the shower as a result.

A few seconds of difference, but they can be annoying, but that's how it is if we decide on a flow water heater. You have to be aware of its disadvantages and try to minimize them.

I also have a practice
But I have a thermostatic mixer in my shower and I don't turn the taps.
But we are talking about the fact that someone is impatient because it takes only 3-5 seconds to have hot water. And you write a laboratory ... with time 30-60sec

BUCKS wrote:

It's not like you think a few seconds and that's it.
If I have a preheated plate exchanger on the boiler, waiting for hot water in the shower takes about 0.5 minutes for me. As soon as the water arrives, it is because I have ruled out the timing of the boiler when consuming domestic hot water, so I have a stable water temperature.
If I did not preheat the plate exchanger, waiting for hot water in the shower could take about 1 minute, which is almost twice as long.

Now, when it has 5 seconds of hot water in the tap, will inserting the tray help? Will it go down to 4 or 3 seconds? Extra profit for the tray for at least several hundred zlotys and maybe even several thousand zlotys.

wnoto wrote:

I also have a practice

but not with a 2-function boiler, because when I associate it, you have electrics at home, so different conditions.

wnoto wrote:

But I have a thermostatic mixer in my shower and I don't turn the taps.

Do not manipulate the facts, because with a flow water heater like a boiler, a 2-function thermostatic mixer does not help to make its purchase sensible.
Such a battery makes sense when we have a hot water heater that offers a stable domestic hot water temperature

By the way, I do not have a thermostatic mixer and I do not have to turn the taps, all this is just a matter of proper regulation, if we understand the principles of a 2-function boiler.

wnoto wrote:

But we are talking about the fact that someone is impatient because it takes only 3-5 seconds to have hot water. And you write a laboratory ... with time 30-60sec

You have a problem with reading comprehension, so you write off topic.
I am writing an elaboration to explain the meaning of the problem to you and others, but I can see that it is like a pea against a wall.
Originally, there was a mention of a delay of a few seconds when switching on the domestic hot water in a new gas boiler, which has its consequences, which I wrote about. You turned it into supposedly several seconds of waiting for hot tap water, which is manipulative and untrue.

wnoto wrote:

Now, when it has 5 seconds of hot water in the tap, will inserting the tray help? Will it go down to 4 or 3 seconds? Extra profit for the tray for at least several hundred zlotys and maybe even several thousand zlotys.

For me, further polemics with you is pointless, because you do not understand the essence of the problem, although you are trying to show that you allegedly know each other and have practice.
It's all about comfort and possible temperature fluctuations when using, for example, a shower and an instantaneous domestic hot water heater. Installing the reservoir reduces these fluctuations, increasing comfort, so your 4 or 3 seconds with the reservoir instead of 5 seconds without the reservoir are data sucked out completely unrelated to the topic.