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Smart installations: EIB, Dupline, Tebis – other systems and experiences

praktyk19 26907 45
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What other smart installation systems exist for general electrical installations, how are they installed/programmed, and are Dupline or Tebis really much cheaper than EIB?

The thread’s consensus is that besides EIB/KNX, the main alternatives are LonWorks, X10, LCN, Luxor II, Moeller’s easy/MFD ranges, and smaller systems such as Teletask and Lutron, while many posters also suggest building a custom microcontroller- or PLC-based system if cost matters [#2310867][#2311159][#4732458][#3235157][#2363523] EIB is described as a decentralised bus system with sensors and actuators rather than a single central controller, and it is configured in ETS via an RS232 interface to a PC [#2310867] In practice, people report EIB is very expensive: one house quote reached 130,000–150,000 zł plus about 20,000 zł for wiring, and another estimate put lighting, blinds and heating for 120 m² at over 30,000 zł [#3190225][#2310867] Dupline and Tebis were said to be cheaper in principle, but posters who checked prices concluded they are not dramatically cheaper than EIB, so they are not really low-cost alternatives [#2149138][#2336043][#2348345] For a more affordable build, the recommended route is heavy pre-wiring and then using a PLC or programmable relay such as Siemens S7-300, LOGO, EASY or similar, which can control lighting, blinds and heating and be expanded later [#5146306][#2363523]
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  • #31 3258654
    Raaf
    Level 22  
    Posts: 433
    Help: 37
    Rate: 77
    I recently attended a presentation by this company: http://www.emiter.net.pl/
    It’s a cheaper alternative if money is an issue, and simpler if you’re having trouble programming PLCs
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  • #32 3303592
    andrzejx
    Level 2  
    Posts: 2
    Rate: 1
    I agree that the EIB system is very expensive, but it’s also very satisfying to use. I’ve automated everything I possibly could in my home. I’ve integrated the control systems for lighting, heating, the alarm and access systems, CCTV, blinds, the emergency power supply, the garden watering system, the multi-room audio system, as well as LAN and WAN access to the system, and so on.
    I can assure you that if you don’t have at least 100,000 zł to spare, you shouldn’t bother with EIB, unless you just want a semblance of a smart building.
  • #33 3304574
    grudziu
    Level 16  
    Posts: 211
    Help: 14
    Rate: 14
    andrzejx wrote:
    I agree that the EIB system is very expensive, but it’s also very satisfying to use. I’ve automated everything I possibly could in my home. I’ve integrated the control systems for lighting, heating, the alarm and access systems, CCTV, blinds, emergency power supply, garden watering, the multi-room audio system, as well as LAN and WAN access to the system, etc.
    I can assure you that if you don’t have at least 100,000 zł to spare, you shouldn’t bother with EIB, unless you just want a semblance of a smart building.


    A while ago I was looking for an alarm system that works on the EIB network, but I couldn’t find anything. Could you tell me what sort of alarm system you’ve got installed?
    Perhaps you could describe what components make up your system?
    Does everything work on the EIB network? Have you noticed any reduction in running costs?
    Regards
  • #34 3305626
    andrzejx
    Level 2  
    Posts: 2
    Rate: 1
    The alarm system isn’t a typical EIB system, but it was possible to integrate signals from sensors on windows, gates, roller shutters, doors and other devices. The alarm ‘knows’ when a window is open and when it is merely ajar. EIB also knows the exact position of each roller shutter, accurate to within 1%. I’ve used a Paradox alarm system with graphic keypads (http://www.alarmy.sklep.pl/szczegoly.php?id=231), so that I always know what’s open and where, and I can close the Velux roof windows remotely using the electric mechanism, meaning I don’t have to run round the house checking everything. Besides, if I don’t close the Velux windows, they’ll close automatically if it starts raining or the wind exceeds 15 m/s:) I don’t know if the costs are lower, as it’s a new house and I have nothing to compare it with. Let me put it this way, though: if I’d put the money I spent on the EIB into a savings account and stuck with traditional installations, the interest would certainly have covered the difference in running costs – and there’d probably have been some left over!:) It’s also hard for me to say how much electricity is used by the remote access computers, monitoring systems, public address systems, etc., which are kept running continuously, as my heating is based on a heat pump.
    However, my first electricity and gas bills came as a pleasant surprise.
    For a house of around 600m² over two months: 1,000 zł for electricity and 57 zł for gas:)
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  • #35 3479001
    Bern123
    Level 2  
    Posts: 2
    Raaf wrote:
    I recently attended a presentation by the company: http://www.emiter.net.pl/
    A cheaper alternative if money is an issue, and simpler if you’re having trouble programming PLCs


    Yes, I agree 100%.
    They also have two smaller systems that can be used in existing buildings.
    There really is plenty to choose from – something to suit everyone.
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  • #36 4605743
    marekch
    Level 2  
    Posts: 2
    Hello. I have recently started learning about smart systems, particularly Tebis and EIB. I found this fascinating, so I decided to write my Master’s thesis entitled “Design of a smart indoor climate control system in the EIB system”.
    I’ll be setting up a test rig with a weather station and including a fair bit of theory to go with it. If anyone has any information on climate control, the components required for it, etc., I’d be very grateful if you could post it on the forum. I’m sure I won’t be the only one who finds it useful. And in a few weeks’ time, I should have something to share myself. Let’s hope so :-)

    Added after 50 [seconds]:
  • #37 4612634
    Waldek.rj
    Level 15  
    Posts: 169
    Help: 1
    Rate: 39
    Hello, is it possible to set something up as a ‘logo’? I don’t mean a typical smart home, but something that will control the blinds and lighting (without an alarm) – or perhaps the heating as well?
  • #38 4612796
    jarecki 86
    Electrician specialist
    Posts: 1194
    Help: 127
    Rate: 293
    Of course it’s possible.
    You’ll find everything you need, for example, in Legrand’s range.
  • #39 4616382
    Waldek.rj
    Level 15  
    Posts: 169
    Help: 1
    Rate: 39
    Hi, does anyone know how much something like this would cost for a 130m^2 house, covering lighting, heating and roller blinds? There won’t be an alarm system or sockets controlled by the system.
    Best regards
  • #40 4732458
    strus148
    Level 10  
    Posts: 7
    It’s possible to do something like that with the logo, but as for controlling the heating, I’m not sure. It depends on whether the control is simply to switch the boiler on and off, or to switch the valve on the actuator on and off.

    As far as I’m aware, there’s no certification in Poland for installing an alarm system within the EIB-KNX system. As for the price (I’m referring to EIB here), the choice of equipment is of huge importance. There is an incredibly large number of suppliers for this system on the market, including ABB, Siemens and Theben. And by building modules, you can anticipate and minimise installation costs.

    There is also a competing system that nobody here has mentioned – Teletask and Lutron. These are much smaller systems than EIB and less comprehensive.

    Another point is that EIB has the most extensive range of devices, as well as so-called ‘bells and whistles’ and design features. That is why many manufacturers incorporate an EIB interface into their devices (often separately programmable).

    There’s also the matter of audio-video control. As the EIB bus is too slow for transmitting AV signals, one would need to look for another system that can handle this. I know that Lutron and Teletask can’t handle this either.

    Hence my question: is there a general AV control system?

    Best regards
  • #41 4747343
    _Tomaszz
    Level 16  
    Posts: 225
    Help: 13
    Rate: 38
    I’m also planning a ‘semi-smart’ system within a reasonable budget (max +25% of a standard ‘top-of-the-range’ one) and I’ve asked myself the following questions:
    1. I need to define the tasks such a system is meant to fulfil; in other words, what I want, and what I can do without
    2. What (or who) is the system supposed to communicate with?
    3. What will happen if the system fails (e.g. after a storm) and how long can I manage without it?
    4. How can I implement manual control?
    5. How can I go about replacing the system (in 20 years’ time, today’s system will be fit for a technology museum)?
    6. How to switch back to a traditional system (if I sell the house or am no longer around) so that the house can function without me.
    7. How to go about building the system in stages: construction (lighting must be in place) -> 1–2 years with essential functionality -> completion and full system functionality.
    8. Finally – which system (or which controller) and which network topology to choose, taking all the above into account.

    I’ll answer these questions another time...
    ...once I’ve had a chance to think it through...
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  • #42 5053535
    piona83
    Level 11  
    Posts: 13
    Help: 3
    Hello.
    I have a question primarily for Mr Bakkrzysztof, but if anyone else has any knowledge or experience on the subject, I’d appreciate your replies

    I’d like to find out more about the integration, practical application and solutions for components such as:

    - controlled single-phase socket and controlled three-phase socket (is this simply a matter of cutting off the power to these sockets?)

    - fire protection systems
    - emergency lighting
    - UPS (uninterruptible power supply)

    Best regards
  • #43 5145936
    robja
    Level 15  
    Posts: 130
    Rate: 6
    Hello,
    I recommend visiting the website www.isys.pl – there’s an ‘affordable’ alternative to the systems on offer. It allows you to control lighting, the boiler room, ventilation, the fireplace, roller blinds, awnings, automatic gates and just about anything else.
    You don’t pay for a single switch and a single actuator module, but for the entire controller, which has 24 outputs (for controlling electrical devices), 12 digital inputs (for connecting switches or sensors) and 8 analogue inputs (for connecting various types of analogue sensors). The system features an integrated multi-zone security system with SMS alerts.
    You can even add your own software modules and control algorithms at the PC level, based on the current status of devices and the values measured by the sensors

    Best regards
  • #44 5146306
    Ficek_F
    Level 12  
    Posts: 42
    Help: 2
    Rate: 4
    Hello

    This is my first post, although I’ve been following the forum for quite some time. Let’s get straight to the point.
    I’m an automation engineer and am currently setting up a smart home system in my own house, so I’d like to share a few insights.

    When planning the installation in my home, I divided the whole process into two basic stages:

    Stage I. Determining what is to be controlled and how

    Looking at the building plan, I identified the elements I want to include in the control system and, in the form of a table, listed the control signals they require.

    Controlled circuits and system functions

    - lighting – divided into overhead (ceiling) lighting and wall lights, as well as lighting that is simply switched on and off, and lighting fitted with dimmers
    - roller blinds
    - power socket circuits – in most cases, one circuit covers all sockets in a given room; for rooms with a larger number of sockets, the system is divided into 2–3 circuits, and separate circuits are provided (e.g. for a washing machine)
    - integration with the alarm system – use of the alarm system’s detectors and reed switches (two reed switches per window sash to detect when a window is opened or tilted)
    - heating – control of valves on the manifold, integration with the heat pump and solar collectors (in the future)
    - reading of indoor and outdoor temperatures
    - setting up a weather station (measuring pressure, temperature, humidity, sunlight, wind, twilight sensor, etc.)
    - control of outdoor lighting, garden watering, the entrance gate, septic tank level, and heating of the entrance and driveway
    - building visualisation on the control panel and on a computer
    - radio control capability
    - Internet access
    - home cinema screen
    - creation of lighting scenes
    - presence simulation
    - support for outdoor cameras

    Ultimately, it was decided that the system should support:

    - approximately 200 digital inputs
    - approximately 170 digital outputs
    - 16–20 analogue inputs
    - 8 – 16 analogue outputs

    Stage II. Selection of components

    We started ambitiously with EIB, LCN or some other smart building system. Unfortunately, after reviewing the capabilities and prices, we quickly had to reassess.

    The prices of these systems were, to put it mildly, prohibitive; there were also potential technical issues relating to memory, communication between devices, as well as more mundane concerns such as the availability of software to programme the system.

    The second approach involved using a PLC. After carrying out some analysis, I finally opted for the Siemens S7-300. Some might say there are plenty of other, perhaps better and cheaper, PLCs, but I chose this one because:

    - I’ve been working with Siemens for 7 years and know it well
    - I have access to the hardware and software
    - it is a reliable and popular controller that can be easily obtained, for example by buying it ‘second-hand’ on eBay or Allegro.

    The downside of the PLC solution is that, to a greater or lesser extent, this is a centralised system, i.e. there’s always a central unit somewhere, whereas, for example, EIB is a distributed system.

    So much for the theory – but what about in practice?

    As of today, I’m finishing off the electrical installation. So far, I’ve laid nearly 4 km of various types of cable: Profibus DP bus cable, twisted pair, alarm cable, standard 4x1.5, 3x2.5, 20x0.5 multi-core cable and a few others. The three of us laid the entire installation working only at weekends, and even so it took 7 months. I’d rather not think about how much a professional firm would charge for this and how they would go about it.
    When planning such a system, you need to factor in the costs of cabling (which are not insignificant) and the labour costs for installation (which are even higher).

    The second issue, which is generally not mentioned by anyone, is the size of the electrical distribution board. With a system like this, the number of cables increases dramatically, and consequently so does the number of terminals in the distribution board to which these cables need to be connected. Added to this are the components of the automation system, protection devices, power supplies, etc.

    In my case, I ended up with two switchboards; the one on the ground floor is the size of a cupboard, namely 1200 mm x 1800 mm x 400 mm (W x H x D). I don’t yet know the dimensions of the second one in the loft, but I estimate it will be 1000 x 1000 x 300 mm.

    At present, my controller consists of an S7-300 CPU315-2DP central processing unit with a 512 kB memory card, a 32 DI digital input module, a 32-channel digital output (DO) module, an analogue input module, a PC interface card and a 5.6” touchscreen.
    I got some of these components for free from the company, whilst others I bought at online auctions.

    Naturally, this configuration will be gradually expanded until it ‘reaches full operational capacity’.

    Nevertheless, I reckon that the total cost of the installation, as I see it, will be half the price I’d have to pay for the components in an EIB system alone

    That’s all for now, but I still have a long way to go. My wife looks at me as if I’m mad and just shakes her head :D
  • #45 8140399
    robja
    Level 15  
    Posts: 130
    Rate: 6
    My eHouse is a distributed system. You install room controllers in the rooms
    12 digital inputs, 24 digital outputs and 8 analogue measurement inputs; it also includes an infrared transmitter (for controlling Hi-Fi equipment via the controller) and an infrared receiver (for controlling the eHouse system via a Sony infrared remote control). Rooms of lesser importance (wardrobes, storage cupboards) can be controlled using the spare inputs and outputs of a neighbouring controller.

    If you wish to have a highly decentralised system, the relays can be placed in the room being controlled (behind a small mobile cabinet), which means you do not need to run 230V cables to a single distribution board – saving at least 3–4 times on 230V cabling and labour.

    The wealth of PC software available allows you to create a layout for the graphical control panel based on your own architectural design and system components.
  • #46 9117968
    jurap
    Level 11  
    Posts: 20
    Rate: 6
    Has anyone taken an interest in the HAPCAN project? At first glance, it’s an inexpensive system that’s described and documented quite clearly. And it’s Polish, too. Perhaps someone has one of these at home?

    http://siwilo.com/hapcan/index_pl.htm
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