Will the differential work without an earth electrode? How to connect?

Hello, I want to set up a differential at home in the block, I want to know if the differential will work without an earth electrode, there are three phases and zero to my apartment and no earth electrode. I recently replaced the installation with a new one with three wires, the old one was in aluminum and with two wires. connect a differential to make it good?

You pass everything through the differential, 3 phases and zero (neutral), but in no case can you change the direction of the current flow all terminals from the top of the input as marked on the differential, from the bottom of the outlet. In order for the differential to not knock out, in no case can you connect the neutral to the protective pin in any of the sockets! (a common mistake of inexperienced electricians )
The third protective conductor from your new installation is best to connect somewhere to a water pipe or something (unless you have plastic pipes, it is a zonk ). If you do not attach a protective differential, it misses the point, as a last resort, the solution may also be to connect a protective device with a neutral at the input of the installation, but necessarily before the differential (although I do not recommend it, it can be different on the incoming neutral).
If you have extensive installations or you use some machines, etc., it is good to make local protective equalizing rails, to which you pull wires from different places in given rooms and connect them with earthed elements.

Rafik_ wrote:

(...) The third protective conductor from your new installation is best connected somewhere to a water pipe or something (unless you have plastic pipes, it is a zonk (...).

A typical advice straight from the Różycki Bazaar or a manifestation of gardening as one of the colleagues on the forum calls it.
Rafik, if you have no idea about this profession, do not write anything, your revelations could cost the tulip13 its life.
The water pipe is connected to the equalizing installation, not the main earthing - in peasant words.

Quote:

As a last resort, the solution may also be to connect a protective device with a neutral at the input of the installation, but necessarily before the differential (although I do not recommend it personally, it can be different on the incoming neutral).

Can you know why? And it won't be any different with your tube?

Buddy Tulipan13 what does it mean in my apartment, I think you meant an apartment.
You need to check in your ZE what type of network you have, no one on the forum will tell you about it.

Most have TN, so you connect the RCD like this:



If you have the option to partition N / PE to ground, you ground it, if not, you don't ground.
When you decide to perform the partition grounding, have it done by an electrician who will later perform the measurements, because without it it will be worth as much as and nothing.

I repeat once again that my advice concerns the TN-CS system so that it will not be there later :D

Greetings.

It was because of such self-proclaimed electricians as "Rafik" that this famous actor lost his life last year - how was it ... ???

I am glad that someone had to correct me and help my friend to do it correctly. After all, this is why there is a forum to help each other and explain many things. The fact that you have criticized me means that you are "watching". Just tell me what will be like the installation in this riser, e.g. it is old, a man lives on the 10th floor, it will start zero, e.g. on the fifth and where will the electricity from the neighbors from above be closed? Will neutral then remain neutral? Only because I wrote that it can be different with neutral.

I am glad that my post had such an effect, and "Cany" about the actors can discuss it, but probably on a different forum, and his post does not contribute anything to the topic (unless as a warning ), he should provide a link instead:
https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic1013171.html
to the post where he asked the same.

It's nice that you have corrected me and that there is still someone to help on the forum.

Greetings and it is good that the experts could express themselves with a capital F, and the discussion on a given topic is advisable because the point is to help each other and dispel any doubts.

Rafik_ wrote:

(...) Just tell me what will be like the installation in this riser, e.g. it is old, a man lives on the 10th floor will fire zero, e.g. on the fifth, and which way will the electricity from the neighbors from above be closed? Will neutral then remain neutral? Only because I wrote that it can be different with neutral (...).

Yes, you are right, in this case there will be tension on the pins. Fortunately, burning PEN on the vertical is a marginal situation, but possible.
Nevertheless, this method, i.e. distribution at the meter or on a floor board, eliminates all damage to your apartment, which is the most common.
Now the question is whether to ground or not. Most of you will say yes. There will also be those who will write that such grounding (done by yourself) can do more harm than good. Two groups will be right.
Correct grounding in a block on the 10th floor may infinitely exceed the cost of replacing the installation in our apartment itself, so it is sometimes worth waiting with the decision of grounding at any cost the division point for e.g. replacement of the riser by administrations.

It can be different with the replacement of the riser by administrations, I cannot ask for help in my community, they prefer to make the facades and renovate the cage not being aware of the dangers of faulty installations.

Tell me what else, for example, with a tarnished zero vertically?
Will there not be a potential in the flow of large currents?

In my bathroom, with an old installation and connecting the "Polish grounding" (zero to the pin in the socket), it gave the effect of digging after touching the housing, and now on a new installation with a differential, and with grounding so much hailed by you, nothing happens and The interference from the computer on the TV card has also been eliminated, my advice may be "straight from the bazaar", something I have never heard of, it works for me as before, and probably despite your fears I feel safer than without it.

And I don't know if Łukasz-O's statement:

"Again, my advice is for the TN-CS system so that it doesn't happen later "

and the network symbol used, the author of the post will say something .

If you think that further discussion is unnecessary, write to the mod, which would not obscure and clutter the forum anymore.

Regards once again.

Rafik_ wrote:

(...)
And I don't know if Łukasz-O's statement:

"Again, my advice is for the TN-CS system so that it doesn't happen later "

and the network symbol used, the author of the post will say something (...)

If the author is not told anything by TN-CS, he should stop playing electrics. Sorry, let's face it.

Quote:

It can be different with the replacement of the riser by the administration, I cannot ask for help in my community, they prefer to make the facades and renovate the cage without being aware of the dangers of faulty installations.

Unfortunately, and so it happens, I live in a block of flats where there are two old ladies on the board, for whom two new flowers in the yard and a renovated staircase are more important. And the pawn? For what. It's been working for 50 years and there has been no trouble .... And talk to them.

Quote:

In my bathroom, with an old installation and connecting the "Polish grounding" (zero to the pin in the socket), it gave the effect of digging after touching the housing, and now on a new installation with a differential, and with grounding so much hailed by you, nothing happens and The interference from the computer on the TV card has also been eliminated, my advice may be "straight from the bazaar", something I have never heard of, it works for me as before, and probably despite your fears I feel safer than without it.

You can write more about your grounding.

The fact that you feel safe and "stopped digging" does not mean that the earthing is effective and safe for you and your neighbors or for workers who will come to replace, for example, the desilter in the central heating node.
Not more than five years ago in Warsaw, in Bródno (such a district), a fitter was electrocuted, replacing a gas meter in a flat. It turned out that the clever grandfather, two floors above, made a super grounding, as he later testified in court, he said: "I had to do it because my refrigerator was kicking."
Several PhDs can be written on the topic of proper grounding.

Rafik does not attack you, but do not give such advice on the Forum. And leave the fun with electricity to the electricians.

And how, buddy, do you know that this old co2 installation is grounded? If it is not grounded, then by connecting the pin to it, not only that it will not give you anything, but you may lose your life because of you one of your neighbors.

Well, that's what - during my work at ADM on maintenance I heard from the "water" guys
What they swear by the digging pipes, only I know
Here there was also the fact that people were combining the thefts - phase from the zero meter from the radiator,
I have written more than once, but I will repeat - the point of division must be grounded - otherwise you only have to wait for an electric shock ... It is enough to try to steal cables in the basement ... At the same time, in one block we had three thefts a week ...
In the old block of flats - I lived on the fourth floor - when it was winter and people warmed up with stoves between the zero of the mains and the tap, I had around 30V and over 2A of capacity ...
And in the TG there was a connection of the neutral wire coming from the city with the earth pins ...

Before you explain that the incident is the result of "combinatorialism", you will be held in mining custody for six months. And 10 floors is about 30 m of cable. Not such a great cost when it comes to security.
Greetings.

Why do you always react with aggression?
And when it comes to the solution, there is no universal one. In my block, a 16 ^ 2 wire connected to a ring earth electrode was sufficient.

kortyleski wrote-

Quote:

I have written more than once, but I will repeat - the point of division must be grounded - otherwise you only have to wait for an electric shock ... It is enough to try to steal cables in the basement ... At one time, in one block we had three thefts a week ...

I am joining the guy who wrote-

Quote:

Block of 10 floors, WLZ 16mm? (therefore 4 wires), installation for TN-S apartment on the 9th floor.

I am asking for practical advice on how to perform such a grounding.

If in an old installation where protection was implemented by zeroing, was it safe enough that you could boldly grab the device's housing in the event of a break or theft of cables in the basement / neutral wire?

Oh well.
Mr. dr. MUST is known as the indoor standard PN IEC 60364. Among electricians it has the same number of supporters as opponents.
If the SEP stated that the solutions of the standard do not correspond to reality, why did it limit itself to issuing a "Commentary on the standard" instead of dealing with the development of its amendment. In such a situation, the comment remains only "the opinion of a separate group of wise men" (or maybe I am wrong and SEP has developed a draft of the amendment?). European directives of the so-called "new approach" do not require the use of specific solutions, if the solution proposed by the author is "at least as safe". So, if you can prove that the lack of grounding of the PEN conductor to PE and N conductor is as safe for users as its grounding, you can do so. But you have to show it.
Personally, I am a supporter (as opposed to Dr. Musiał) of earthing the split point of the PEN conductor. Regardless of the cost, when someone retrofits an installation there is usually a slight increase in cost compared to the overall cost. But that's my opinion. I probably won't convince you, because so what if IEC accepted something there. We are in Poland!
Greetings.

I also spent my money!

Rules are rules, but ... The awareness of having protection means bolder use of devices, and this in turn causes a greater threat. We wrote about the theft of cable ties, a year of fright was when three phases went to the block because someone scared the thief away, and the thief cut only N ... Fortunately, burned devices are all ...
Let everyone say what they think, I always advise as it should be, I do the same installations ...
I have a clear conscience.
And there are many partisans in Poland, it is enough to watch a TV "fault".
In our country, unfortunately, there are still rules of "anyhow cheaper"

You do the arbitrary grounding of the distribution again, it drips.
The split point exists or is not present at the network receiver! .
Distribution earthing is an integral part of the network and under the supervision of the network owner. The recipient can only join it. Additional grounding in the receiver may be unfavorable for the network and the network receiver.

Wirnick-if you are defending the owner of the network in this way, it seems that the same owner should ensure that the entire network meets certain standards, including concerning earthing - e.g. in ZK / by making appropriate measurements /. So if the earthing is OK, the local earthing should not pose a threat to the network.

In our area, ZE does not wish to use their earth electrode. You should then pull the 4x wire to the houses and do a separation in the fuse box. what do you say?

kortyleski wrote:

I always advise as it should be,

Then please state how it should be and best support yourself with something that can be recognized by the investor or construction supervision and the prosecutor. [/ Quote]

It should be safe - take the situation when the zero is cut off on the riser ... RCD disconnects, but PE tied to N gives voltage, situations thousands - theft (crooks steal N wires because they will not kick them), an accident involving a pole, a branch with trees, etc. As a result, we have a dark house and all metal housings of live devices, earthing systems in the donk are in abundance, even a damp floor in the garage and a "grounded" machine.
A safe solution is to detect the presence of voltage on PE and cut off the entire installation, contrary to appearances, very simple.

My friend corticals you can be sure that if thieves steal the PEN or N conductor, then even more PE. So no matter how you look, there is no protection. Cutting off PEN or N is accompanied by a large arc, even greater than with phase conductors, and with PE, a few sparks at most Which one will you choose?

A falling limb on an overhead line usually breaks everything or causes a short circuit - no protection, but also no voltage.

I will repeat a question that has already been asked several times on various topics: How to ground on the 10th floor in an apartment block. Do not write about 30m of cable, because in this case it is actually a small beer compared to other costs. To make matters more difficult, there are no ZELPs, the cage has just been renovated, there are two elderly ladies on the board of the Community, and the division is traditionally DY4x 10mm2.
I am asking for practical advice and not telling people about the necessity of grounding, and that's it. We all know what the consequences are and what's next ??
Greetings.

PS
Checking the voltage on the PE and disconnecting in the event of an emergency is something.

Buddy Łukasz-O, you answered yourself in the second post of this topic. We do not ground the common point. Other protection measures can be used, e.g. containment space, safe distances or detection (?).

I greet my colleague tulipan13.

Wirnick wrote:

Buddy Łukasz-O, you answered yourself in the second post of this topic.

I mean specific advice in a case such as described above, aimed at grounding fanatics at all costs of such a split point.

The fact that there is no obligation to ground PE / N I know, but explain it to others.

I'm still waiting for advice.