A/C Installation: Factory Refrigerant for 5m, Adding R410A for 6-7m Pipes, Measurement Accuracy

The air-conditioner installation manual provides that up to 5m it has enough refrigerant and it does not need to be added. R410A 1.3kg.
If the planned installation is 6-7 m of pipes, 10g of refrigerant is required for each meter.

The air conditioning installation company measures the amount of refrigerant by placing the cylinder on a primitive scale. The resolution of such a scale is very low, about 10 or 20g. Hanging snakes introduce an additional error. It is impossible for me to measure such a small amount precisely. There is a high probability that instead of allowing 20g, that much will return to the wires.
For what length of pipes is the factory refrigerant enough? How many parameters can be loaded? How will the efficiency decrease if we slightly exceed the length of the pipes?
Is it better to allow a factor with an inaccurate measurement method or leave it as is?

Hello,
If the company's employees have experience, they will supplement with a larger amount of factor, and then check the operating parameters of the system and, if necessary, add or remove the factor.
What is important are the operating parameters of the system, not tables that sometimes have nothing to do with reality.

How primitive this weight is, I don't know. Usually, they are used with a slightly higher accuracy, but it's still a conventional thing, because in the end we still have 10-20 g of inaccuracy in the measurement, because the cylinder with the refrigerant is uneven, hoses, what true in this situation tare is used, but also with tare the result is undulating. 20 grams is more likely to be recognized by the sound of the refrigerant flow than by its weight. You can also see it in the weight, but the result will never be unambiguous.
In my opinion, it's worth to finish these 20g, even though with 50g it will go into the atmosphere. First, the lines are vented, then they are tared and loaded with these 20 grams on the air conditioner turned on, it's literally a moment and we turn off the factor, there can be no higher pressure at the suction of the working compressor than in the hoses, for a moment we will hear the sound of the factor and this ensures that there is more of it in the system . We will also see it after weight, but here it gives a lot of experience.

I do not know if 20 grams of the refrigerant will make any difference in operation, I know from experience that the method to check if it is the right amount is to first measure whether the temperature on the entire exhaust is equal to +-2 degrees and whether it cools in the range of 8- 12 degrees relative to the intake air - it also depends on the air temperature. Overheating is still checking, but you also need to know what and how.

As for the negative effects of a large shortage of refrigerant, it is, for example, local freezing of the exchanger, which may drip where it should not, poorer efficiency, and even extremely damage to the compressor, but it is rather a matter of at least 20% refrigerant leakage. At 20 grams, if indeed the Chinese did not foresee contact action, there are no effects of loss.
Too much has its consequences.
But current air conditioners are quite flexible.

OK thanks. So there's nothing to worry about.

All the installers I know have single-stage vacuum pumps. Does it matter for the installation of a new installation? Supposedly, two-stage with 10x better vacuum are only useful for repairing damp, etc.?

None have nitrogen cylinders for 40 bar pressure testing. They claim that it is enough to flare well, check if it holds a vacuum for an hour and if there are no leaks after unscrewing the valves. The assembly instructions say otherwise.

Jan_Werbinski wrote:

Is it better to allow a factor with an inaccurate measurement method or leave it as is?

To leave. The air conditioner is about 800g (the smallest) and 10g is 1%.
The reading from the manometer pointer gives a larger error ;)

Jan_Werbinski wrote:

All the installers I know have single-stage vacuum pumps. Does it matter for the installation of a new installation? Supposedly, two-stage with 10x better vacuum are only useful for repairing damp, etc.?
Single-stage has to work longer.
None have nitrogen cylinders for 40 bar pressure tests. They claim that it is enough to flare well, check if it holds a vacuum for an hour and if there are no leaks after unscrewing the valves. The assembly instructions say otherwise.

They probably have nitrogen (according to the law, they even have to) but they will not carry it around customers, carry it to calm the customer's conscience - the second thing, the pressure test takes a long time, i.e. two days of work - and if they are sure that they are doing well, then without nitrogen they will manage.

I've never seen them pressure test with nitrogen before. Especially since they don't have a torque wrench either. I have suspicions that they prefer to make connections based on experience, and if once it doesn't work out and the factor goes into the air, they will fill it with a new one. It used to cost several dozen zlotys to refill it. Only now PLN 200-300 and the factor itself.

Can air from a diving cylinder be used for a pressure test? It was previously compressed to >230 bar, passed through a molecular sieve to collect residual moisture and activated carbon to remove oil vapors.
Shouldn't you worry about not trying and you'll be fine?
Why do you save on tools in such a profitable industry? Is it like that everywhere?

Oxygen under pressure is very reactive - it may react with the oil, better not to.
It's better to leave it as it is, but somehow enforce a longer warranty (for the tightness of the connections) - if the professionals are confident, it won't hurt them.
The industry is somehow not terribly profitable - if I have all the possibilities to do it (equipment and experience) and I don't do it, because I prefer other industries (industrial automation and derivatives) - I can do it myself.

There is no risk of oxygen reacting with oil, because I wrote about air, i.e. the oxygen fraction is 20.9% and self-ignition or even oxidation is not possible even after increasing the pressure.
What is the risk of unsealing the system if we do the correct flaring and use a torque wrench to tighten? What are the consequences of a refrigerant leak when the air conditioner is not used for months and no one even notices? Only the need to drain to zero and refill according to weight or also taking moisture from the air and corrosion? I had one air conditioner that broke and after repair and finishing the factor it worked for maybe one year. The second time I didn't want to fix it.

The risk of reaction with oxygen due to pressure is several hundred times greater than in the open air, synthetic oils are quite resistant, it's possible that nothing will happen - try it, we'll know for the future - no one has tried it yet
The risk of unsealing with proper assembly is nil.
If the air conditioner is standing and there is a small leak - there are low chances of it getting wet - the hole is so small that there is pressure in it all the time that "asymptotically tends to the atmospheric pressure" - this overpressure insulates well from the air for a long time. There will be no negative pressure that draws air inside, and diffusion of air and moisture hardly penetrates. So that's a bit intimidating. Consequences in my opinion are small, just the need to supplement - of course not for a fool - you need to find where it escapes and fix it (most skip it).
The fact that you had a specific case of failure is not an indicator - it is doubtful that it broke down completely due to the leak and subsequent filling (actually what broke down?) - some parallel circumstances coincided, so to speak

Fraction counts when handling oxygen. It's more important than pressure. Fractions up to 40% are, for example, considered safe in diving and there is no risk of self-ignition or explosion even if we compress the air to 300 bar. Oxygen clean cylinders are not required and common petroleum based lubricants can be used.
The opposite is true for pure oxygen - here, even at atmospheric pressure, dangerous things happen. For this reason, the OIDP Apollo program discontinued the use of pure oxygen after the famous accident and used 50%.
I have learned a lot about pressurized oxygen and I am qualified to use pure oxygen under pressure, e.g. 200 bar in diving. I rolled it myself from large cylinders to small ones and made mixtures.

I don't know what was the cause, because I disassembled and installed another.
So what about used air conditioners? If moisture got inside the pipes of the indoor unit, will a long-term vacuum, e.g. several days, be enough to restore them to a usable condition? I have an air conditioner like this and I'm wondering if I can use it for something.

Is an F-Gas certificate required for the installation of splits up to 3kg of refrigerant? Because no one has...

Jan_Werbinski wrote:

I don't know what was the cause, because I disassembled and installed another.
So what about used air conditioners? If moisture got inside the pipes of the indoor unit, will a long-term vacuum, e.g. several days, be enough to restore them to a usable condition? I have an air conditioner like this and I'm wondering if I can use it for something.

Air conditioners do not break down due to moisture, but they have various dysfunctions ("jamming") that can be removed by properly refilling.

Quote:

Is an F-Gas certificate required for the installation of splits up to 3kg of refrigerant? Because no one has...

This is a bit worrying, because that was not the purpose of all these statutory measures related to ODS and F-gases. Devices over 3kg (probably CO2 equivalent now) must be registered and subject to mandatory leak checks (various methods, e.g. "indirect" is the best because in practice: how does it work ).

Jan_Werbinski wrote:

Is an F-Gas certificate required for the installation of splits up to 3kg of refrigerant? Because no one has...

Because you took Frank from under the woods...
The certificate is according to laws needed, actually two. One entrepreneur and the other named employee. After all, in order to obtain an entrepreneur's certificate, a company must have a certified employee and equipment required by law. Min. nitrogen cylinder and reducer.
Read the f-gas act. There was an amendment and now kg of refrigerant is not used, but CO2 equivalent, which is different for different refrigerants. For R410a the "old" 3 kg correspond to 2.4 kg of refrigerant.
In principle, such assembly should be reported to UDT and Environmental Protection, and the company or Franek should be punished!
acc. According to the law, you must not "touch" an uncertified f-gas refrigeration system. It doesn't matter how much f-gas you're handling!
If you had a large unit (over 2.4kg for R410a) then according to you become an operator and you have to register a CRO.
You are also complicit in breaking the law and you "brag" about it on the forum...

Can you indicate which point of the act is the legal basis for the claim about the requirement to have a certificate or for your claim about breaking the law?
acc. for me it only applies to devices with 3kg factor. All my owned and air conditioners have much less of it - no more than 1.3kG R410a. For R32, this conversion factor will be even more favorable.

These are quotes from before the amendment (i.e. the 2015 Act, but nothing has changed in these points, possibly numbering).

So the unemployed Mr. Henio - a handyman without a company and being unemployed can install air conditioners?
Mr. Kaziu, who has a company, can operate without a certificate for two years. All you have to do is sign up for the course and have a friendly installer with a certificate who supervises it according to 308/2008 Art4. 3. a.
How else to explain that these companies are on the market?

It seems that the author of the topic does not want to read...
Not just laws and everything else. And all his "knowledge" is based on marketing materials.
In fact, there are even references to the Fgas Act.
Just try to buy a refrigerant other than R600a or R290 in an online store.
But who would want...
With the rest of Elektroda, the awareness of the existence of the act and the violation of the law related to it is even among the moderators is negligible.

After all, I am pointing to the article of the EC regulation to which the previous quote referred. That means I read it and looked for loopholes. I haven't tried to buy refrigerants because I don't need them. Does that mean you can't buy them? The air conditioner is also supposedly not allowed, but I bought it.

Jan_Werbinski wrote:

So the unemployed Mr. Henio - a handyman without a company and being unemployed can install air conditioners?

By law, he can't, and you can't read!

Jan_Werbinski wrote:

Mr. Kaziu, who has a company, can operate without a certificate for two years. All you have to do is sign up for the course and have a friendly installer with a certificate who supervises it according to 308/2008 Art4. 3. a.

Where did you read such things? In addition, new EU directives came into force and there was an amendment to the law about a year after the much delayed previous one.

Jan_Werbinski wrote:

How else to explain that these companies are on the market?

What companies?
And the explanation is simple. Legal education was not taken care of, because there are "more important" things and typical Polish bur..li incompetence. It is in the nature of Poles to disregard the law.
Only a drastic increase in factor prices and difficulties in purchasing them straightened some people out.

In general, I see that some companies have all the papers, but they are expensive. Others are cheap, but have equipment problems and turn their nose up at unusual jobs. From what I can see, the minimum for a poor company to meet all the requirements by adapting to the current law is > PLN 8,000. Did I count correctly?

European Community Regulation No. 308/2008. I have read. Have you read it?

Mr. Kazio can install one or two air conditioners without a certificate, because it is legal. Then it exhausts the hallmarks of economic activity and is subject to the treasury.

Jan_Werbinski wrote:

Mr. Kazio can install one or two air conditioners without a certificate, because it is legal.

acc. you...

Jan_Werbinski wrote:

Then it exhausts the hallmarks of economic activity and is subject to the treasury.

And what does the tax office have to do with the Fgas Act?
In addition, Polish law applies in Poland, and the fact that it must comply with the EU law is a separate problem.

Jan_Werbinski wrote:

European Community Regulation No. 308/2008. I have read. Have you read it?

I didn't read it because it doesn't apply to gasses and refrigeration.
As usual, you want to twist the cat's tail, i.e. you resort to trolling.
You broke Polish law and you are trying to get away with hay.

Jan_Werbinski wrote:

From what I can see, the minimum for a poor company to meet all the requirements by adapting to the current law is > PLN 8,000. Did I count correctly?

Probably more, but what do you care? Are you entering this industry?
PS read about OBI and their legal skirmishes related to the sale of air conditioners.

Jan_Werbinski wrote:

From what I can see, the minimum for a poor company to meet all the requirements by adapting to the current law is > PLN 8,000. Did I count correctly?

If lower-class equipment is good - I also used to count and I also got such amounts - of course without training - these will come out to about 3k (1.2k for the staff and 1.8k for the entrepreneur).

Quote:

Mr. Kazio can install one or two air conditioners without a certificate, because it is legal. Then it exhausts the hallmarks of economic activity and is subject to the treasury.

can't. When installing Mr. Kazio, he must have a personnel certificate, always. He can privately carry out assembly and service activities - but the problem arises is of a fiscal nature - because it is a gray market. Issuing invoices for assembly without the entrepreneur's c. should be treated as quite risky - the penalties are substantial. In general, with this, entrepreneurs are one big machloa - nobody needs a thing (if it were simpler if it was similar to SEP - only personal) - but someone had to implement it all from the technical side and watch over it, no one wanted to be the stupid one, because there was no money for it - UDT did it, and as compensation, there are c. entrepreneurs (paid to UDT ) - this is my conspiracy theory - don't take it seriously
Refrigeration has been made into a regulated industry and that's it. In my opinion, this is wrong - in general, it philosophically limits human freedom, but I'm not going to kick a horse (with the EP, EC or the government of the Republic of Poland - which is the least to blame because it dragged these regulations for 10 years - since 2004 there is an EU act (originally ODS), theoretically also in force in Poland - ours only in 2015 seriously introduced it.

Chris_W wrote:

Refrigeration has been made into a regulated industry and that's it.

That's what happened, although I doubt if it will change anything in terms of "filling gas" ...
The only effect is higher costs of conducting official (!) activity and factor prices. Although the latter mobilized a bit to look for a hole, not "finish"...

Chris_W wrote:

I don't like it - it generally, philosophically limits human freedom

This freedom is different. If it wasn't for the environmental protection regulations, e.g. sewage would go further into the rivers.
It's supposed to be similar here, but the EU has overdone it a bit, probably lobbyists, and a bit also our officials. The amendment to the law has changed little for the better in our greater papacy...
Jan_Werbinski. When did you buy the air conditioner and did it have refrigerant in it? I am asking because, as far as I remember, "the union forbade" the sale of filled but not compact devices with fgases, in order to somehow force the assembly and the related purchase of the factor by certified personnel.

Anyone can buy an air conditioner for resale and sell it without exhausting the signs of economic activity.

You didn't answer my question, and you basically replied with a fable that might suggest circumvention of the law.

Is it legal or not to evade the law?
Check offers on Allegro. Is there a shopping ban? All climates have a factor. They are even in the stores.

http://allegro.pl/klijator-lg-3-5kw-standard-p12en-promocja-2018-i7375623025.html
View this auction. You can buy without assembly even with VAT 8%.

4 years ago I bought a split 3.5 kW with a parker connector in Obi. It still works today and who cares...?

manitou wrote:

4 years ago I bought a split 3.5 kW with a parker connector in Obi. It still works today and who cares...?

>10 years ago I bought an Einhell self-assembly air conditioner. It worked beautifully.
A few years after installation, the o-ring on the connector broke. Gas leak. Replacement with a soldered or flared joint. A year or two later something is wrong again. I gave up.

Jan_Werbinski wrote:

So what about used air conditioners? If moisture got inside the pipes of the indoor unit, will a long-term vacuum, e.g. several days, be enough to restore them to a usable condition? I have an air conditioner like this and I'm wondering if I shouldn't use it for something.

I'm interested in that too. I have an air conditioner - the electronics are operational, but there is no 410a factor in the system - the valves are open for a year.
Is a long-term vacuum and filling enough, as Janek wrote, can the oil be moist or is there a loss or other threats?

I recommend changing the oil. Then vacuum 2h then nitrogen 24h leak test. If ok re-vacuum maintain vacuum daily and run.

p.obelix wrote:

I recommend changing the oil.

I support. I find it absolutely mandatory.
I would add a nitrogen flush with a vacuum in between.
The filter drier should be replaced after drying. Nitrogen brazing.
It has to be done by someone who knows what's going on!