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The power of household appliances and the value of fuses in apartments (houses).

Zbigniew Rusek 68283 19
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Treść została przetłumaczona polish » english Zobacz oryginalną wersję tematu
  • #1 10157916
    Zbigniew Rusek
    Level 38  
    I am opening this topic because this problem is serious, especially in the slightly older construction industry (for example from the period of the earlier Polish People's Republic). Simply put, in a typical apartment from that period, there were 2 electric circuits: one lighting circuit (protected by a 10A fuse, often 6A in the case of small apartments) and ONE circuit of plug sockets, protected by a 10A fuse. While even 6A is sufficient for lighting, even when using ordinary light bulbs (and 10A is with a clear reserve), the circuit of the plug sockets is a problem. 10A is only 2200W (when the voltage was 220V - today it is 230V, i.e. 2300W). Problems appeared when automatic washing machines became widespread, because the washing machine's power is generally between 2200W and 2300W (sometimes even a bit more) and if there is ONE CIRCUIT in the apartment, the 10A fuse must blow out, because the refrigerator is permanently connected to the socket (depending on from sizes 100 to 200W). In practice, it was possible to wash in washing machines only on short programs and at a temperature of 40 degrees, otherwise the fuse was turned on again. I had to partially solve this problem illegally, giving a 16A fuse in place of the original one (I also talked about it earlier with an electrician who said that the wires should withstand, but the fuse value should not be used "to the end", because there is also a 16A, and you also need to add lighting). Later, in the staircases, it was changed from 16A to 20A and officially 16A was allowed in the apartments (I had to replace the caliber insert to put the 16A fuse on because it has a different contact diameter - of course I used thin INSULATED pliers and gloves).
    Later, they started making 2 socket circuits: separate for rooms, separate for kitchen + bathroom (but this does not help, because the washing machine and refrigerator will be connected to one circuit anyway, but at least during washing, for example, a TV, a vacuum cleaner or a computer may be turned on. )
    While in the case of an automatic washing machine, the power of approx. 220-2300W is justified (but later there were washing machines approx. 2100W - those loaded from the top), in the case of other home appliances (small) the producers really "went crazy" with the power. It is common to see electric kettles on sale with a power above 2000W (usually they are about 2200W) and once in one supermarket I saw a kettle with a power of 3000W !!! The kettle itself would have to have a 16A protection. After all, it is as much as a large storage stove and more than a typical boiler. The same idiocy is e.g. an iron with a power of 2000 or 2200W (they already are) - once irons with a thermostat were 750W (enough), then 1000W, steam started from 1000W and it was quite enough. Vacuum cleaners. Maybe someone remembers a tiny "Omega" with the power (if I remember) 100 or 120W? At the same time, the oldest model of the Soviet "Rocket" (360W) or "Chaika" (370W) were real rockets (full-size vacuum cleaners, quite large). Later - the powers were raised, for example, Zelmer started from 250W, then 400W, then 550W and so on. So when there is a 10A fuse, nothing can be turned on except the vacuum cleaner (+ fridge). Iron 2200W + fridge in a situation where the fuse is one for all sockets in the apartment and has a value of 10A - brick fuse "breaking". And where are the TV, radio, etc. Even something as small as a hair dryer now often has 1500W of power or more (and there used to be Farel with only 250W, but that's not enough - 600-800 is just right for a dryer).
    I believe that equipment manufacturers should exercise some moderation in the case of power and take into account that not all installations are adapted to high loads and in many apartments there is one circuit of 10A plug sockets (i.e. less than one socket can withstand today - today sockets are 16A, it used to be 10A).
    As for kettles, manufacturers should assume that it should have as much power (in kilowatts) as it has liters, i.e. a small kettle (1 liter) should have 1000W, a typical kettle should have 1700 or 1800 watts (usually 1.7 l. or 1.8 l.), the iron should be 1000w, vacuum cleaner - approx. 600w, unless it has adjustment, then 1000w., food processor - 500W (more or less the same light type electric drill, but this is There is no longer a household appliance but an electric tool), a 10-liter capacitive electric heater - about 1500W (a large 3000W boiler and should be connected to a separate circuit with a 16A safety device), a coffee machine - 1000W.
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  • #2 10157989
    mita
    Level 16  
    Zbigniew Rusek wrote:
    I think that


    I also live in a block from the 1970s and have a similar problem. Two circuits, 16A protection.
    So far, everything is running smoothly, the oven is over 3KW and the washing machine is 2KW. I was trying to induction on 230V, but for technical reasons it is out of the question. It's a pity.

    Time to modernize cabling in old buildings. !!
  • #3 10157999
    movzx
    Level 40  
    You groan, complain and theorize. The power of the devices is based on customer expectations.
    Kettles and irons have a lot of power because the customer wants to cook and iron quickly and effectively, and not wait half an hour for heating up. Vacuum cleaners and dryers - very much the same - the customer wants accordingly: strong draft and quick drying of the hair - for this you need a strong air stream.
    Washing machines almost always had a power of 2000W, and so were dishwashers.
    Using 2 receivers of 2000W at the same time for a short time will not activate the 16A fuse, which is typically used in installations.

    And if someone wants to continue to use the antique 10A security aluminum installation, this is only his problem. Pious wishes will not change anything in this regard. You might as well say that you get cold when you go to the outhouse in the backyard, so we should change the climate to tropical.

    mita wrote:
    Time to modernize cabling in old buildings. !!

    There has been time for this for the last 10 years. I live in a block of flats from 1971, I changed to copper, I have 20A and peace of mind without thinking when my cottage is about to eat.
  • #4 10158101
    MARCIN.SLASK
    Home appliances specialist
    Zbigniew Rusek wrote:
    I am opening this topic because this problem is serious, especially in the slightly older construction industry (for example from the period of the earlier Polish People's Republic). Simply put, in a typical apartment from that period, there were 2 electric circuits: one lighting circuit (protected by a 10A fuse, often 6A in the case of small apartments) and ONE circuit of plug sockets, protected by a 10A fuse. While even 6A is sufficient for lighting, even when using ordinary light bulbs (and 10A is with a clear reserve), the circuit of the plug sockets is a problem. 10A is only 2200W (when the voltage was 220V - today it is 230V, i.e. 2300W). Problems appeared when automatic washing machines became widespread, because the washing machine's power is generally between 2200W and 2300W (sometimes even a bit more) and if there is ONE CIRCUIT in the apartment, the 10A fuse must blow out, because the refrigerator is permanently connected to the socket (depending on from sizes 100 to 200W). In practice, it was possible to wash in washing machines only on short programs and at a temperature of 40 degrees, otherwise the fuse was turned on again. I had to partially solve this problem illegally, giving a 16A fuse in place of the original one (I also talked about it earlier with an electrician who said that the wires should withstand, but the fuse value should not be used "to the end", because there is also a 16A, and you also need to add lighting). Later, in the staircases, it was changed from 16A to 20A and officially 16A was allowed in the apartments (I had to replace the caliber insert to put the 16A fuse on because it has a different contact diameter - of course I used thin INSULATED pliers and gloves).
    Later, they started making 2 socket circuits: separate for rooms, separate for kitchen + bathroom (but this does not help, because the washing machine and refrigerator will be connected to one circuit anyway, but at least during washing, for example, a TV, a vacuum cleaner or a computer may be turned on. )
    While in the case of an automatic washing machine, the power of approx. 220-2300W is justified (but later there were washing machines approx. 2100W - those loaded from the top), in the case of other home appliances (small) the producers really "went crazy" with the power. It is common to see electric kettles on sale with a power above 2000W (usually they are about 2200W) and once in one supermarket I saw a kettle with a power of 3000W !!! The kettle itself would have to have a 16A protection. After all, it is as much as a large storage stove and more than a typical boiler. The same idiocy is e.g. an iron with a power of 2000 or 2200W (they already are) - once irons with a thermostat were 750W (enough), then 1000W, steam started from 1000W and it was quite enough. Vacuum cleaners. Maybe someone remembers a tiny "Omega" with the power (if I remember) 100 or 120W? At the same time, the oldest model of the Soviet "Rocket" (360W) or "Chaika" (370W) were real rockets (full-size vacuum cleaners, quite large). Later - the powers were raised, for example, Zelmer started from 250W, then 400W, then 550W and so on. So when there is a 10A fuse, nothing can be turned on except the vacuum cleaner (+ fridge). Iron 2200W + fridge in a situation where the fuse is one for all sockets in the apartment and has a value of 10A - brick fuse "breaking". And where are the TV, radio, etc. Even something as small as a hair dryer now often has 1500W of power or more (and there used to be Farel with only 250W, but that's not enough - 600-800 is just right for a dryer).
    I believe that equipment manufacturers should exercise some moderation in the case of power and take into account that not all installations are adapted to high loads and in many apartments there is one circuit of 10A plug sockets (i.e. less than one socket can withstand today - today sockets are 16A, it used to be 10A).
    As for kettles, manufacturers should assume that it should have as much power (in kilowatts) as it has liters, i.e. a small kettle (1 liter) should have 1000W, a typical kettle should have 1700 or 1800 watts (usually 1.7 l. or 1.8 l.), the iron should be 1000w, vacuum cleaner - approx. 600w, unless it has adjustment, then 1000w., food processor - 500W (more or less the same light type electric drill, but this is There is no longer a household appliance but an electric tool), a 10-liter capacitive electric heater - about 1500W (a large 3000W boiler and should be connected to a separate circuit with a 16A safety device), a coffee machine - 1000W.


    In the times of the Polish People's Republic, they saved on everything they could, aluminum instead of copper, 2-wire installation, power allocation of max 3-4kW. So to be able to use the devices normally, they had less power, and some had a switch to limit the power. Back then, even if the client wanted to have a 5kW power allocation at home, it was "impossible, sir". He had as much as the power industry assigned. It was better in the newer blocks, because the copper installation also appeared.

    And today. You want 20kW, then you have 20kW (sometimes it costs a lot, but it can be done). Although 5-7kW for 1 phase / 12kW for 3 phases is more than enough in most apartments.
  • #5 10158199
    Anonymous
    Anonymous  
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  • #6 10158367
    peter falk
    Home appliances specialist
    Zbigniew Rusek wrote:
    As for kettles, manufacturers should assume that it should have as much power (in kilowatts) as it has liters, i.e. a small kettle (1 liter) should have 1000W, a typical kettle should have 1700 or 1800 watts (usually 1.7 l. or 1.8 l.), the iron should be 1000w, vacuum cleaner - approx. 600w, unless it has adjustment, then 1000w., food processor - 500W (more or less the same light type electric drill, but this is there is no longer a household appliance, but an electric tool), 10-liter electric heater - about 1500W (a large 3000W boiler and should be connected to a separate circuit with a 16A safety device), coffee machine - 1000W

    There are kettles, irons, thermal baths, washing machines, coffee machines on the market, and the average vacuum cleaner actually consumes less than a kilowatt, etc.
    You're whining. For me, the problem is not serious - purely making a pitchfork from a needle.
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  • #7 10158393
    Łukasz-O
    Admin of electroenergetics
    MARCIN.SLASK wrote:


    In the times of the Polish People's Republic, they saved on everything they could, aluminum instead of copper, 2-wire installation, power allocation of max 3-4kW. So to be able to use the devices normally, they had less power, and some had a switch to limit the power. Back then, even if the client wanted to have a 5kW power allocation at home, it was "impossible, sir". He had as much as the power industry assigned. It was better in the newer blocks, because the copper installation also appeared.

    Yes and no. There was an eternal crisis then, but no one dreamed of connecting electric ovens, dishwashers, kettles and other luxuries. In those days, there were only light bulbs and a radio in the premises, or a TV if someone had it. There was also Frania and nothing else.

    MARCIN.SLASK wrote:
    And today. You want 20kW, then you have 20kW (sometimes it costs a lot, but it can be done). Although 5-7kW for 1 phase / 12kW for 3 phases is more than enough in most apartments.

    Yes, but sometimes they won't give you permission without replacing the entire riser.
    Recently, I have been working on a similar topic. The guest had to replace the entire riser at his own expense. The Community benefited from it ;)
  • #8 10158584
    stomat
    Level 38  
    You can approach the topic like road workers. Roads and parking lots were designed and built as soon as the secretary and the director had cars. 3-4 parking spaces were built in front of the block and it was enough. Today, everything is cluttered with cars and the "road workers", instead of widening the roads, narrow them (!). Electricians following in their footsteps should change the wires to smaller cross-sections. Why should people go crazy and, for example, dry their hair when the washing machine is running? Why dry quickly? Let them wait a bit.
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  • #9 10159352
    Zbigniew Rusek
    Level 38  
    mita wrote:
    Zbigniew Rusek wrote:
    I think that


    I also live in a block from the 1970s and have a similar problem. Two circuits, 16A protection.
    So far, everything is running smoothly, the oven is over 3KW and the washing machine is 2KW. I tried to induction on 230V, but for technical reasons it is out of the question. It's a pity.

    Time to modernize cabling in old buildings. !!

    I live in a block of flats from 1963, where the apartment has 1 socket circuit, which originally had a 10A fuse and a lighting circuit - also 10A. The wires of both circuits are copper, but have a small cross-section (probably 1 mm2, I doubt it would be 1.5 mm2). After buying an automatic washing machine (Polish washing machine), when you were washing on a medium-hot program (60 degrees), the fuse popped out (at the same time, the fridge is in this circuit) and half-legally changed it to 16A (for some time in the staircase it was also 16A, that is, you had to be careful not to use this 16A to the end, but then they replaced it in the staircase with 20A during the renovation of the boards). On the other hand, 10A per lighting circuit is too much (very little for sockets, as one electric kettle often consumes more than 10A). Of course, I do not have any dishwasher, I do not need a kettle because I have gas (but I use the kettle on the plot).
  • #10 10159730
    mita
    Level 16  
    movzx wrote:
    There has been time for this for the last 10 years. I live in a block of flats from 1971, I changed to copper, I have 20A and peace of mind without thinking when my cottage is about to eat.


    Switching to copper alone may be of no avail, as energy risers are aluminum. A few will change to copper in one riser and at the same time, for example, they will start using ovens and holidays without electricity. Replacing the risers and buying additional KW are just costs.
  • #11 10159901
    pm.001
    Electrician specialist
    Hello
    Quote:
    Merely switching to copper may be of no avail, as energy risers are copper

    Hmm, apart from the cross-sections of WLZ, what material should these WLZ be made of, according to a colleague?
    Because I guess it sent too fast :)
    greetings
    pm001
  • #12 10160306
    movzx
    Level 40  
    mita wrote:
    Switching to copper alone may be of no avail, as energy risers are aluminum.

    Of course, but it is a matter of pressing the manager and / or the tenants' agreement. Since the problem is as common as the author of the thread suggests, I don't think there should be any problem with it :)
  • #13 10160487
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
  • #14 10160618
    movzx
    Level 40  
    bialy20 wrote:
    Is it only marketing that forces us to buy devices with more and more power consumption?
    It is a secret conspiracy aimed at taking over the world power by KGHM.
    But seriously - if you read my first post, maybe you would notice that it is the customer who forces the producer, not the other way around.

    bialy20 wrote:
    All colleagues have a discount on electricity?
    Are such powers of home appliances justified from an economic point of view?
    In addition, I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the basics of physics, especially the relationship of energy (work), power and time.
  • #15 10160733
    Anonymous
    Level 1  
  • #16 10160766
    retrofood
    VIP Meritorious for electroda.pl
    This discussion is redundant and adds nothing to the topic.
    Besides, please use the correct symbols of technical units. I remind the basic:
    wat [W] - we write "watts"
    kilowatt [kW] - we write "kilowatts"
    ampere [A] - we write "amperes"
    volts [V] - we write "volts" (not "volts")
    kilowatt hour [kWh]
    ohm [?] - ohms (not "ohms", not "ohms")
    I ask everyone to correct their posts if there are any mistakes in them.
  • #17 10161044
    movzx
    Level 40  
    bialy20 wrote:
    your first answer shows NOTHING
    Believe me, I have a lot more to say when it comes to customer expectations research than you do because I work in this industry.

    bialy20 wrote:
    ALWAYS there is a trade-off between price, power and performance.
    And you have just answered the questions "why" and "what follows from my statement".
    Once upon a time there was Predom with adjoining, once there was Polar, once there was the only right Zelmer.
    They could assume that in Poland the customer has 10A, so the dryer / washing machine / vacuum cleaner has 500W and that was the compromise.
    Now, such things are done globally - and in the world, as you can see, people already have normal installations, not open-air museums of the Polish People's Republic, so the compromise powers are different. Only a Pole, as usual, dissatisfied and about everything around.

    bialy20 wrote:
    these "weaker" vacuum cleaners (and not only!) straight from the Polish People's Republic worked without problems after 30 years
    And now they do not work because those who have been doing the equipment for 30 years - have collapsed due to high costs and low sales. Life.

    bialy20 wrote:
    drying with too intense a stream of hot air
    Then go to the barbershop and see what powers professional equipment has. 2000-2400W. This is not the time and place to enlighten you about why this is so.

    bialy20 wrote:
    copper in tubes, sections for a welding machine
    So what are you nagging at? For fun?

    retrofood wrote:
    This discussion is redundant and adds nothing to the topic.
    Amen. And so I will not convince home-grown rationalizers that the PRL with the light bulb and the radio is over.
  • #18 10162375
    mita
    Level 16  
    movzx wrote:
    Of course, but it is a matter of pressing the manager and / or the tenants' agreement. Since the problem is as common as the author of the thread suggests, I don't think there should be any problem with it :)


    Merely hitting the steward may do nothing. I live in a block from the 1970s together with the tenants who then got these flats, min. 60 years old. And since there is a housing community, there must be some kind of mutual consent. Now persuade your 60-year-old to replace the wiring because your clothes dryer or induction hob breaks the plugs.
    Like it used to be washing in France and everything was fine.
  • #19 10169777
    Zbigniew Rusek
    Level 38  
    If we wanted all electrical devices to have the power that is being promoted now and to be able to use them without paying attention to whether the fuse will blow, many buildings (both residential and office) would simply require REELECTRIFICATION (practically in other words - replacement of the entire electrical installation, and this requires "tearing" the walls). And do you remember the Zelmer 04s vacuum cleaner? Power - 550W. It pulled VERY WELL (previously the Soviet Rockets or Chaika pulled well, but a tiny, approx. 100W Omega, barely-barely). 500-600 watts for a vacuum cleaner is enough, as well as 1000W for an iron (even steam). On the other hand, a 250W hair dryer is definitely not enough (there were a gun-shaped Farel, very light). For a dryer you need 600-800W (professional maybe 1000W). In any case, in many flats in blocks of flats from the 1960s there is one fuse for ALL of the socket outlets in the apartment and the value of this fuse is 10A. This is definitely not enough.
    By the way, today in Krakow, in a building of the Jagiellonian University, the installation in the server room was overloaded and the wires began to smolder. 300 people were evacuated.
  • #20 10170203
    kkas12
    Level 43  
    I have always wondered how easy it is to get indoctrinated.
    The fact that in this country electricity is treated as a luxury, I can understand from poverty.
    But the fact that among electricians there are people who support this state of affairs and even condemn the production of receivers with powers that refute this supposed normality is completely beyond my perception.

    I'm just waiting to prove that the 16A pre-meter protection is "better" than the 25A.

Topic summary

The discussion centers on the limitations of electrical circuits in older Polish apartments, particularly those built during the Polish People's Republic, which typically feature only one circuit for plug sockets and lighting, both protected by 10A fuses. This configuration poses challenges with modern household appliances, such as washing machines and kettles, which often exceed the power capacity of these circuits. Participants highlight the need for modernization of electrical installations, advocating for the replacement of outdated aluminum wiring with copper and the installation of higher capacity circuits (16A or more) to accommodate contemporary power demands. Concerns about the economic implications of such upgrades and the historical context of power allocation in older buildings are also discussed, alongside the necessity for tenant cooperation in making these changes.
Summary generated by the language model.
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