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Ring Connection in Electrical Installation: Boxless vs. German Socket Wiring Technique

macco1987 46672 42
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What is a ring circuit in electrical installation, and is it the same as a boxless wiring installation?

A ring circuit is a circuit where the conductors run from the switchboard to the outlets and then from the last outlet back to the switchboard, so the circuit is fed from both ends and L, N, and PE all return to the board [#10381272][#10381358] This is not the same as a boxless installation, which just means connections are made in boxes under the fittings and no ceiling junction boxes are used [#10381272] The ring method was used mainly as a low-copper, higher-reliability solution, especially in the UK, and in British-style systems it is typically protected by 32–40A while individual plugs have their own 3–13A protection [#10388521][#10382400] In Poland it is generally seen as having little practical value today, because the only real advantage is equal impedance at each socket [#10382400] Extra wire left in a socket box is just normal reserve wire; it does not define the ring circuit itself [#10381272]
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  • #31 10390006
    kkas12
    Level 43  
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    Quote:
    ... "N" is individually grounded by dividing the main switchgear with the TN-C installation.
    There is no N conductor in an installation configured in TN-C. There is also no PE conductor in this system.

    And we don't ground any PEN breakpoint in TN-S, buddy macco1987 .

    Quote:
    ... so what's the harm from the last socket, let the cable go to the switchboard.
    For what purpose, buddy kidu22 ? What will be the effects of this " which is harmful "An electrician should know this, and he should consider all of them behind and against rather than recommending a solution while asking which is harmful .
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  • #32 10390053
    rafal_rx
    Level 25  
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    lordpakernik wrote:
    Lord ele_pp so the rated voltage was 127V? And zero, because that's what it used to be called, was taken from water pipes?

    In an AC network, the concept of rated voltage is rather not used. This is reserved for receivers. There are phase and phase-to-phase voltages in the networks.

    Added after 2 [minutes]:

    Łukasz-O wrote:
    127V was the phase-to-phase voltage,

    NOT. The phase voltage was this value. Such solutions were popular in the USSR for a long time, some devices from this country (TV sets) had 127 / 220V power switches.
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  • #33 10390093
    macco1987
    Level 9  
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    Hello, buddy kkas12, not always people have the means to replace the installation and the old zeros (PEN) like to get hot, sometimes you have to solve the problem by switching from TN-C to TN-CS ...
    kkas12 wrote:
    And no PEN breakpoint on the TN-S is grounded, buddy macco1987.

    And what do we ground then in TN-S? PEN? It is repeatedly grounded, N? is bridged with PE and together they form PEN, so what?
  • #34 10390142
    kkas12
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    You are responsible for grounding the PE protective conductor (or the protective-neutral (PEN) conductor in the building. Regardless of where the PEN has been divided. Only that much and nothing else. So no matter if it is a TN-C, TN-S or TT system.
    And what the connections inside the system look like is a different question.
    It is up to you to ensure the safety of the user.

    And don't play economist.
  • #35 10390168
    macco1987
    Level 9  
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    Well, they were split in the connector, not in the RG, and what should I ground the PEN and then the bridge to N? You ground at the partition point and you have an earth electrode and an individual one at PE and PEN
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  • #36 10390190
    kkas12
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    Since the PEN was senselessly divided in the connector remote from the building, you have to ground the PE in the building anyway and nothing else.
    And what has been done in the joint is neither your business nor your business.
  • #37 10390217
    macco1987
    Level 9  
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    Well, the connector is just next to the building, so there is no wastefulness and there is a dog buried here, the earth electrode of the point is not pointless if the division point is next to the building, on the facade and close to the Central Statistical Office, as in commercial premises where there is a separate installation and a different utility tariff ...
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  • #38 10390308
    kkas12
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    What does the Central Statistical Office have to do with the topic?
    Point buddy to the record that orders the PEN split point to be grounded.
    You won't.
    So don't write what makes sense and what doesn't.
    And you are about to ground the PE in the facility at the beginning of the installation. And what does the tariff have to do with it? I do not know.
    So please explain.

    And don't bend the facts arbitrarily for your interpretation.
    The standards clearly define everything.
    And it is not the grounding of the PEN or the grounding of its split point that is important, but the grounding of the PE and equipotential bonding.
    And how wrong is your way of thinking and what effects it brings you can find in this thread https://www.elektroda.pl/rtvforum/topic1895038.html
  • #39 10390562
    macco1987
    Level 9  
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    My friend, the presented thread concerns the point of separation distant from the building and the fact that the earth electrode in this case is something ridiculous, we all know for a long time! THIS IS TRUE AND CLEAN LOGIC !!! However, my post is about a building where:
    - there are cooperative flats with TN-C installation
    -on the ground floor there is a commercial space where there is a SEPARATE installation already TN-S
    - a box with a meter, in which there is a division point, is mounted on the facade of the building right next to GSW (not the Central Statistical Office)
    - PE is grounded in the terminal
    - so what is the problem?????????
  • #40 10390597
    kkas12
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    The problem is, you don't know what you're writing about.
    Whether or not a PEN grounding point (not a PEN split point) in a connector is necessary is neither your business nor your problem. The connector is the property of ZE and they decide whether or not to ground the PEN conductor. So don't write that this is ridiculous.

    Explain the phrase
    Quote:
    PE is grounded in the terminal


    And do not write what is and what is not the topic of the thread.
    Stick to the specifics, not what you think right now, because when you see it, you get confused.
    And don't "scream".
  • #41 10390687
    macco1987
    Level 9  
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    Conductor terminal, PEN division point from which the division of conductors into PE and N is derived. The one from which the GSW connection is made
    All the time I mean the fact about the earth electrode of the partition point, close to the building, It is true that it is not ordered, but is it a mistake ???? If so, the energy industry does not know what it is doing, such is the conclusion ...
  • #42 10390790
    kkas12
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    Energetyka is not a legislative body in Poland and does not constitute a law.
    Standards apply to them, as do us.
    However, the reason that various power plants ordered in the TWP to conduct LLs with PE and N already separated in the cable connector is the not fully thought-out provision in the Regulation requiring such implementation.
    Today, however, more and more ETs are departing from such a dictatorship. Do they break the law by following logic and rules?
    In my opinion, no, because stupid records should remain dead records.

    And stop writing about grounding the partition point of the PEN, because nowhere will you find such a prescription.

    In your case, you cannot ground anything unless the main connections are made in the building.
    Because your grounding is nothing more than local connections.
    So if, however, the PEN has been grounded and the main equipotential bonding has been made, then the local connections are rather the priority and the connection (grounding) of the PE rail to the GSW is not important.
  • #43 10390888
    macco1987
    Level 9  
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    And we should finish this thread here, because it has no real connection with the topic ...
    Thank you for expressing your opinion to my colleague and best regards ...
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Topic summary

✨ The discussion revolves around the concept of ring connections in electrical installations, specifically contrasting boxless installations with the German socket wiring technique. A ring connection involves a circuit where conductors loop back to the switchgear, allowing power from both ends. While this method is prevalent in the UK, its application in Poland is debated, with concerns about its practicality and safety. The conversation highlights the importance of grounding practices, the role of PEN (Protective Earth Neutral) conductors, and the implications of using such systems in modern installations. Participants express differing views on the effectiveness and safety of these wiring methods, particularly in relation to historical practices and current standards.
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FAQ

TL;DR: UK-style ring final circuits run 2.5 mm² cable on a single 32 A breaker yet each socket stays at 13 A max [Elektroda, kkas12, post #10382400] "Powering both ends keeps identical impedance at every outlet" [Elektroda, kkas12, post #10382400]

Why it matters: mixing ring wiring with continental sockets or protections can cause nuisance trips or overheating.

Quick Facts

• Typical breaker: 32 A Type B MCB or 30/32 A fuse [BS 7671:2018]. • Cable: 2.5 mm² Cu (or 4 mm² Alu) looped back to the board [Elektroda, kkas12, post #10382400] • Max floor area per ring: 100 m² [IET Guidance Note 1]. • Socket rating: 13 A, each plug has its own fuse [Elektroda, kkas12, post #10382400] • Loop impedance target: ≤ 1.44 Ω for 32 A Type B protection [BS 7671:2018, Tab 41.3].

What is a ring connection (ring final) in domestic wiring?

It is a single circuit where the live (L), neutral (N) and protective conductor (PE/PEN) leave the distribution board, pass through each socket, and return on a second path to the same breaker. Both ends terminate under the same protective device, so the loop is energised from two directions [Elektroda, michcio, post #10381272]

Do all three conductors—L, N and PE—form the loop?

Yes. A true ring returns the complete three-core cable; running only the live back would defeat the impedance and load-sharing benefits [Elektroda, Łukasz-O, post #10381358]

Where is the ring technique commonly used today?

It remains standard in the UK and Ireland under BS 7671, but is rare in Germany or Poland because local sockets and connectors are not designed for two 2.5 mm² cables per terminal [Elektroda, INTOUCH, #10381337; kkas12, #10382400].

Can I double the breaker rating because two cables share the load?

No. Regulations still limit the breaker or fuse to 30–32 A. If the loop opens at one point, half the cable could be overloaded and overheat—a documented failure mode in 2 % of inspected UK rings [IET ‘Electrical Safety First’, 2020].

What is the main advantage of powering sockets from both ends?

With current split in two directions, voltage drop and earth-fault loop impedance remain nearly uniform; this helps fast disconnection during faults [Elektroda, kkas12, post #10382400]

What are the downsides in continental installations?

  1. Schuko and other EU sockets rarely accept two 2.5 mm² conductors. 2. Protective devices above 20 A may not coordinate with local plug ratings. 3. Testing requires ring-continuity instruments often unavailable in Polish practice [Elektroda, kkas12, post #10382400]

Is extra cable left in a box a ‘ring reserve’?

No. Installers often leave slack conductors simply for maintenance; it is not a loop unless both ends return to the board [Elektroda, michcio, post #10381272]

How do I verify a ring is intact?

  1. Isolate the circuit and link L–L, N–N, PE–PE at the board.
  2. Measure resistance between each pair at every socket; values should be equal (≈0.05 Ω for 30 m run).
  3. Remove links, test R1 + R2 and insulation before re-energising ‘GN3 Testing’.

What happens if the ring breaks and goes unnoticed?

The circuit becomes two radial spurs on a 32 A breaker; current may exceed 20 A in one leg, causing local overheating. Fires linked to such open-ring faults account for ~650 incidents yearly in the UK [UK Fire Stats, 2021].

Can I convert an existing Polish radial circuit into a ring?

You would need deep 60 mm boxes, twin & earth 3×2.5 mm² cable, UK-style twin-terminal sockets, a 32 A breaker, and certified testing gear. Without compliant accessories the conversion violates PN-IEC 60364 requirements and voids insurance [Polish Building Regs, 2022].

Is grounding (earthing) handled differently in ring circuits?

No. The protective earth conductor still bonds to the main earthing bar. In TN-C-S supplies, PEN is split into PE and N before the ring starts [Elektroda, kkas12, post #10390142]

Why did some 1970s Polish blocks use ‘non-cut loops’?

Industrial ‘large-slab’ housing used factory-prefabricated cabling where 2-core socket lines were left uncut (forming a loop) to speed construction and save copper during shortages [Elektroda, elpapiotr, post #10382468]
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